BS: Is this Brexit 4?

Subject: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:49 AM

Less than 90 days. Can we keep this civil? I want out. Lots of you want remain. Let's discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 01:46 AM

One of the things being claimed is that it would be a travesty of democracy if Parliament was shut down and unable to debate Brexit as we approached the October deadline. It would be disappointing if that was mirrored on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 02:03 AM

Extreme Brexit fanatics in Govt and Media have made it impossible
for ordinary folks to have civil rational debate on leaving or not.
The ticking count down to deadline will only exacerbate and intensify the rancour...


We can try our best though...

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 02:53 AM

!I want out. Lots of you want remain."
People who want out have laid out their reasons pretty clearly
Perhaps those who want out may do the same, so far there has been little attempt to do so
When this began nobody was aware of the consequences of leaving the E.U., now we have lots to discuss
I thin the ball is in your court Stanron
Perhaps avoiding terms like "fanatics" might e a good start
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 02:55 AM

It is fanaticism of all kinds that causes problems, PFR. Although, to date, there have not been any deaths caused by remain supporters. We can discuss this in a civil manner but only if we ignore the extreme language used by some. Would someone from the moderation team please remind all participants that the best guideline is to be civil to each other and the best way to deal with trolls or flamers is to ignore them.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 03:32 AM

Amen, Dave. Fingers crossed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 04:08 AM

I support Brexit, as does the majority. The only reason we have reached this impasse is because of the blatant dishonesty of our MPs.
The leaders of both Tory and Labour clearly stated they would give the mandate to the people.
This mandate was clearly supported by a huge majority in Parliament when article 50 was voted for. Furthermore the mandate of the people was further reinforced by an election where both parties stood on a leave the EU ticket. That last election was the time for MPs to state their position if they disagreed. They did not. Furthermore they cannot claim a Damascene conversion conversion since the election, because all the issues had been thoroughly thrashed about since June 2016. The mildest description for these MPs is that they are venal, dishonest and treacherous. They put the 30 pieces of silver above integrity.
To expect me to accept allthe machinations of the remainer MPs as being lawful and legitimate is a wish too far. As far as I am concerned their chance to stand up and be counted was at the last General Election. The fact that they did not clearly demonstrates they are totally unfit to be MPs. and no matter what gyrations they go through to frustrate brexit the majority will refuse to accept it's legitimacy. Their credibility was blown at the last election. Who is going to take any notice of thieves and shysters. Their own actions highlight the illegitimacy of their aims It is a deliberate attempt to negate the majority vote that was to leave the EU. The worst thing about it is that these same MPs betrayed their electorate by standing on a leave ticket. Why would anyone take any notice of them now?
They were outvoted in the referendum
They were outvoted for article50
They were outvotedin the 201 General Election
There ain't nothing changed since.
Remainers were defeated resoundingly three times.

We are going to reclaim our sovereignty and leave the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 04:58 AM

Well if you want rational reasons for wanting to remain in the EU:

Euratom

Horizon2020

Erasmus

Our right of freedom of movement, resulting in fabulous opportunities for our young, or less young, people to work in Europe

Free movement of goods which results in the fabulous choice of quality continental products available in our shops.

Enhanced confidence in our country, in particular our currency.

EHIC

Hassle free travel

Rights to buy property in Europe

All positives, there are no negatives.

We are going to reclaim our sovereignty and remain in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 05:13 AM

I think we all know each others positions. Rather than reiterating them, I suggest we should stick to commenting on current and future events.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 05:21 AM

Parliament is sovereign and is the basis of our democracy. It is wrong for an unelected leader, or indeed anyone, to seek to subvert parliament in order to achieve their favoured outcome. Charles I found that out the hard way. Boris should take note.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 05:22 AM

DMcG a good idea.
What do you think of this proposed future event?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/07/john-mcdonnell-threatens-march-palace-tell-queen-taking-boris1/

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 05:34 AM

John McDonnell would be right to do that, if Johnson tried to cling on to power despite losing a no confidence vote. Its either that or the army taking over, and we don't want that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 05:57 AM

I think I would prefer the army to a committed marxist. But many a slip
'twixt the cup and lip. There are many permutations on how it could all pan out, The real question to be answered, in terms of the referendum result, what is a legitimate course of action? Primacy of parliament was clearly devolved to the people for the referendum to occur.
You and I both know that to disregard it by terming it "advisory" will simply not wash, primarily for the reasons I outlined above. In my view and in the view of the majority all your arguments disputing brexit lack validity for the simple reason we operate on majority rule.
The fact that apparently many MPs stood for leave when were clearly closet remainers merely outlines major flaws in the power of the electorate to dismiss cheats and liars. You can argue your position until the cows come home but your stance is to usurp democracy by relying on dishonest MPs that stood for re election under false pretenses. That is a fact!
If I had my way I would bang them all up for malfeasance

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 06:17 AM

Iains wrote "The fact that apparently many MPs stood for leave when were clearly closet remainers merely outlines major flaws in the power of the electorate to dismiss cheats and liars."

Of course the electorate has the opportunity to dismiss the so called 'cheats and liars' every 5 years or even less than that.

Now, how often should there be a referendum?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 06:26 AM

I would certainly not prefer the army to an elected body, chosen by the respective constituencies. It seems likely that there will be a general election, and people will stand on whatever their manifesto is at the time. I think that the fact the members of parliament voted on support of article 50 meant they voted to leave, but I don't think it means they voted "leave at any price." If the price is, in their judgement, too high, they have not only the right but the duty to say so, and if need be pay the price at the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 06:27 AM

As I said on the other thread. The job of the government is to do what is best for the nation. Not to pander to approximately 1/3 of the electorate while completely ignoring the views of the rest. If the MPs make themselves unpopular with hard line leavers that is their own choice. That would be fine by me but I fully understand it would upset many.

As DMcG said, we all know the pros and cons of being in the EU and have voted according to whether we believe being in or out is best for everyone and generations to come. What is important now is how our elected representatives handle it. If they crash out of the EU they lose the confidence of the 1/3 that wanted to remain. If they do not leave at all they upset the 1/3 that voted leave. In addition, they have no idea how the 1/3 that did not vote will react and how much people's minds have changed in light of better information.

I would love them to simply say they were wrong and we should remain but I know that will not happen. The best we can hope for is a compromise that partially satisfies most of the population and does what is right for the nation. I have given my view, that the agreement should be to remain in the customs union, apply no tariffs to EU produce and allow free movement of people, subject to more tests than previously applied.

Whether that can happen or not remains to be seen but it has to be better than alienating the millions who wish to remain and facing the potential economic disaster that is predicted.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 06:39 AM

To that we need to add the "Project Fear" factor. We can be fairly sure a lot of people who voted leave thought much, or even all, of the warnings were "fake news." I believe a lot was wildly exaggerated. But if ANY of it turns out to be right in a way that directly impacts peoples lives, some proportion of leavers will also feel cheated. What happens then is very hard to predict.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 06:59 AM

"Of course the electorate has the opportunity to dismiss the so called 'cheats and liars' every 5 years or even less than that. "
Has it ?
Elections are won on promises that are never kept - ever
If you base your system on that fact nothing changes whoever wins
THat system now stands to be replaced by a Prime minister who considers it to be his right to veride that flawed system and has declared he intends to over-ride a vote he disagrees with - a step away from democracy
The argue that "that's what the people voted for" is a totally fallacious on coming fom people who have a track record of holding the peoples' opinions and rights in contempt
I would love Nigel and Stanton to lay out exactly why they wish to leave - where do they want Britain (if there is to remain such an entity) to go and how it is going to get there - at lease both of them have confined their postings to to the question in hand
Personally, I don't believe Britain to be ready for Independence yet (to borrow a phrase from the days of a dying Empire)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 07:41 AM

The dominant theme of the last election was Brexit, as has been pointed out many times. The brexit vote was won by a majority of those enfranchised. That is a fact!
Leave         17,410,742         51.89%
Remain         16,141,241         48.11%
Valid votes         33,551,983         99.92%
Invalid or blank votes         25,359         0.08%
Total votes         33,577,342         100.00%
Registered voters/turnout         46,500,001         72.21% Facts

Trying to justify your arguments by talking about a mythical 33.3% is pure delusion. Babes in arms have no vote, neither do ghosts, neither do those that did not make it to a ballot box. Time to get real!
Leave won. A simple vote in or out. No need for explanation from me, just consult the results!

The explanation required is why democracy should be overturned because you cannot accept the outcome of a vote by the people. An explanation is required why many MPs stood dishonestly on a leave ticket in the last election when their sole objective was to defy the people and overturn the referendum result.
Brexiteers can hold their heads up high, it is remainers trying to subvert democracy. Why are they doing this, and what gives them the right?
The argument that MPs have changed their minds may have had a degree of merit until the 2017 election. I cannot accept they have changed their minds since as project fear started on the 27th June 2016. Almost a year for all the "issues" to be thoroughly discussed.
Those treacherous MPs who stood on a leave ticket and have since been trojan horses should be consigned to the augean stables where they belong. Their careers are likely terminated come the next election, the only problem is how much damage will they do in the meantime.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 08:02 AM

Sorry, but I had to laugh at the idea Trojan horses belong in Augean stables. As mixed metaphors go, that's a good one.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 08:17 AM

Didn't finish my reply
"Now, how often should there be a referendum?"
As often as necessary
It's cleaned out Ireland's Augean Stables `spectacularly over the last few years and neutralised some of the worst elements of Irish society
Would that the UK treated serious subjects so responsibly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 08:25 AM

My point still stands. In 2016 the electorate was approximately 46 million. Of those 17.5 million voted to leave. 16 million voted to remain and for one reason or another 12.5 million did not vote. I agree absolutely that by a simple majority the decision was leave but the fact remains that whatever happens, a huge number of the electorate will be greatly dissatisfied. The 1/3 is not mythical at all. 38% of the electorate voted to leave. 35% voted to remain. The remaining 27% is an unknown factor. Whatever happens, the government is going to alienate just over 1/3 of its voter base and do not know how the non voters and new voters will react. It is not as easy as following 'the will of the people'. It is all about how to satisy the needs of the whole population. I doubt very much that the current admninistration can do this.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 08:45 AM

The point about the will of the people in a referendum is in my view irrelevant. We live in a parliamentary democracy, we elect representatives to represent our interests, and thus parliament determines the will of the people. Or have you all forgotten Burke again.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 09:33 AM

The point about the will of the people in a referendum is in my view irrelevant.

In your view perhaps.
However 46,500,001 people voted in the referendum. To tell them after the event they were simply pissing in the wind and are irrelevant is liable to hack them off a teensy weensy bit. Especially the majority that voted leave

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 09:34 AM

Populism worksd on the basis of using people's dissatisfaction
THIS MAN PUT IT IN A NUTSHEL OVER HALF A CENTURY AGO when he wrote, "we have to change things if we want things to remain the same" - a different tactic to maintain the status quo.

In Ireland we have referenda to change major issues - and they have
We also have a PR system that to a large degree prevents the excesses of the 'first past the post' system - and it does

Continuing to rely on a Parliamentary system that has developed a deep mistrust, even a contempt in politics and politicians is playing into theuir hands and keeping them were they are - it's as simple as that
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 09:37 AM

As mixed metaphors go, that's a good one.

"Date: 23 Jul 19 - 10:36 AM
..I see an abject failure to deliver brexit and a general election sooner rather than later.
Not that Labour would welcome such a gift, it would be more a Trojan horse for them.
This is a shame because they have an Augean stable already prepared."

So good it's become a classic hit on cliché playlist rotation...

AS well as asking we be civil, Stanron could also have requested
posters in this thread refrain from lazily regurgitating material
from previous dead end threads...

Surely we can all make the effort to write fresher ideas in this 'new start' discussion concerning the future...???

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 09:44 AM

The bitter bile in the press will get much worse in the coming weeks...
This will filter down into even nastier social media interactions between us ordinary folk...

Maybe we mudcattes are mature and reasonable enough to resist
basing our posts on thinly disguised copy n pastes from the most mean spirited newspapers...???

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 10:00 AM

When 72.21% of the electorate turn out to vote when clearly given a mandate by Blair, Cameron and May you cannot really expect the majority to take it lying down when certain MPs promptly try to renege on the deal. That in a nutshell is where we are. Remainers are squirreling around all over the place trying to justify this betrayal. As yet their arguments are on foundations of sand and have no merit. Democracy demands the vote is upheld.
Betray the vote and you betray democracy. It really is as simple as that! Is that what you really want? The papers are full of what McDonnel would like to do- are you really trying to give power to a self proclaimed marxist that when asked what law Tories would be tried under, McDonnell replied “I might want to invent it”.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 10:13 AM

Yes, I saw that absurd hysterical tripe in the 2 papers most beloved by a certain type of folks...

It's as if it's the 1950s and reds under the beds paranoia all over again...

"McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence....

But they didn't have the advantages of the internet to spread the panic and lies
as immediately and effectively folks can now..

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 10:25 AM

"The bitter bile in the press"
The Times is quite interesting - while it is a vituperative right-wing rag its articles are pretty overwhelmingly anti-Brexit
Its sputtering hatred of Corbyn is obviously based on the fear of what damage his ideas would to to an imbalanced society based on the privilege Murdoch and his kind represents   
As much as people like these would like to make those ideas illegal (as shown admirably here) they resort to smear and undermining and would sooner see the British constitution junked rather than relinquish their power and privilege   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 10:28 AM

David Carter: and thus parliament determines the will of the people.
No, parliament can only determine the will of parliament. It could be expected to represent the will of the people, but that is not always the case.
In this particular case parliament decided to find out what the will of the people actually was, in order to be guided in what to do.
Having found what the will of the people (or at least the majority view of those both able and willing to vote) they should have taken their guidance from that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 10:45 AM

”In this particular case parliament decided to find out what the will of the people actually was, in order to be guided in what to do.
Having found what the will of the people (or at least the majority view of those both able and willing to vote) they should have taken their guidance from that.”

Unfortunately for you and your fellow Brexiteers, Nigel, that’s nonsense - just wishful thinking.

The EU Referendum Act 2015 makes it crystal clear that it is advisory only, and that the government is not required to act in accordance with the result. The Act was passed by Parliament, and it is not within the power of a PM to amend it - only Parliament can amend an Act passed by Parliament.

Our system of Parliamentary Democracy does not put any responsibility on MPs to do the bidding of their constituents - but it does require them to act in the best interests of their constituents, and the country as a whole.

I find it astonishing that those who are the keenest to rant on about ‘democracy’ are those who appear to know the least about what democracy actually means within the context of our Parliamentary system.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 10:48 AM

Yes, I saw that absurd hysterical tripe in the 2 papers most beloved by a certain type of folks...

So you deny what he said when it is reliably reported by numerous sources. Here is a smattering of them:
John McDonnell has threatened to drag the Queen into a constitutional crisis by claiming Labour would “take over” if Boris Johnson refused to quit were he to lose a confidence vote.
"I want to be in a situation where no Tory MP can show their face in public without being challenged by Direct action (Insurrection) - They are social criminals & eventually, i warn you, WE WILL TRY THEM!"
with the link below you can watch and listen to the lunatic.
It seems you support labour therefiore you must support the tripe in the video in the link below


https://twitter.com/_BrexitTory/status/1157326624746102784

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 10:54 AM

A quick response to an old boogieman
"Marxism" is a philosophy based on the dream of a society run for the benefit of all its members rather than the privileged few
Whatever the personal, long term views of Corbyn and McDonald are, their stated objectives are to make slightly fairer the present society by removing some of its greater anomalies - most Marxists I know would regard this as 'reformism'
If Corbyn's reforms took root, the gap between rich and poor would be narrowed slightly, workers would be able to afford to live in areas where there is work for them (unlike now) and maybe even the victims of the Grenfell Tower disaster would now have permanent homes instead of remaining in temporary accommodation.
This sort of humanity is an anathema to those who shriek "Marxism" whenever such objectives are suggested
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 11:03 AM

MARCH 2019
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 11:18 AM

It is not 'the will of the people's as we keep pointing out. It is the will of 17.4 million out of an electorate of 46 million. You cannot totally disregard the will of the rest and expect to get away with it. But all this is beside the point and has been discussed ad nauseam. The only way forward with this discussion is to focus on how to get the best deal for the entire nation. Surely that is what everyone, leave or remain, wants. To achieve that is a juggling act and, in my opinion, beyond the skill of the current administration.

Does anyone have any real and positive ideas of how this can be achieved? I have given my preference. Leave the EU; apply no tariffs to EU produce; remain in the customs union; allow movement of EU citizens but apply more stringent controls. I think that satisfies most requirements but realise it is over simplified. How about someone else coming up with a better compromise?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 11:34 AM

"How about someone else coming up with a better compromise?"
Common sense and Democracy would be to ask the people to reconfirm their decision now they are aware of the consequences
It is the decision only of those that wish to leave they it takes place in October - I have little doubt that the E.U. would be prepared to grant Britsin more time
So far, Europe is is only the EU who have been prepared to compromise - Britain has only stamped its foot and demanded more
The EU is not a single entity, it represents 23 States; Brexit, it appears does not even represent Britain's interests - the Northern States don't want it, Scotland is threatening to leave The Union and even Wales is talking about civil unrest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 11:51 AM

BWM says:

"Our system of Parliamentary Democracy does not put any responsibility on MPs to do the bidding of their constituents - but it does require them to act in the best interests of their constituents, and the country as a whole."

And that is the point, and the whole of the point. It is the absolute foundation of our system of democracy, stated most famously by Burke in his Bristol speech in 1774. 1774 that is, and people still havn't grasped it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 11:55 AM

Is Reclaim our sovereignty the same as Let's go back to when Britain ruled the waves? It seems so to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 11:59 AM

A very simple way to verify what the "peoples voice" is NOW would be to hold another referendum.

If the "peoples voice" remains as it was in 2016 then we leave the EU.

However I don't think this solution would appeal to those ardent Brexiteers on here and elsewhere.

As an aside, albeit an important one, the pound is trading at approximately 80% of it's value pre-referendum. Thus everything we import is costing far more than it was then.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:02 PM

Watched the first episode of this last week

Portillo;the trouble with the tories

the second is on tonight.

What was striking in the various clips that they showed, was the lack of the word advisory during the campaign.

What was also striking was that Cameron seemed so certain that people would vote remain. How wrong can he have been? At the time I thought the result was going to be tight and that it could go either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:05 PM

Raggy, that is a hugely important point which the sewer press see fit to ignore, and it will be worse if we are hit by tariffs on all imported foodstuffs. Just wander round the shelves of your supermarket and see how much of the stuff we buy comes from the EU, OR IS COVERED BY EU TRADE AGREEMENTS. A no deal brexit is about a 40% hike in the cost of our food.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:08 PM

Agreed David. I see that every week when I do our weekly food shop.


** When I am in the UK that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:18 PM

Why would we impose tariffs on imported food? That would be totally irrational

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:23 PM

A lot of nonsense is spoken about what will and will not happen after Brexit. Until an agreement is reached we cannot be sure what will happen BUT the government is working on most imports being duty free in the event of a no deal Brexit. That will then be reviewed after a period of time


Most imports tariff-free under no-deal plan

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:35 PM

The price hikes we have experienced and will continue to experience are caused, in the main, by the fall in the value of the pound since the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:49 PM

Did the £ recently dip below the $ in some currency exchanges..

I switched on the news near the end of a report so couldn't confirm what I thought I'd partly heard...???

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:50 PM


A lot of nonsense is spoken about what will and will not happen after Brexit. Until an agreement is reached we cannot be sure what will happen

What is nonsense and what isn't will be revealed in time. I just ask that those who insist it is nonsense are willing to take responsibility for their decision. It is not the EU's fault, or May's fault or anyone else if, knowing where we are now and what is predicted, you decide it must go ahead. As adults we are responsible for our decisions. Blaming someone else if it doesn't work out as you hope is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:51 PM

Is Reclaim our sovereignty the same as Let's go back to when Britain ruled the waves?

No, its the same as "Make AmeriKKKa Great Again".

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:16 PM

If the EU and UK cannot agree a deal, both will have to place tariffs on the other. It may be illogical, but that is how it works.

Source

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:19 PM

Mossback, kifkif. And thanks for the new and shorter thread, Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:24 PM

Is Reclaim our sovereignty the same as Let's go back to when Britain ruled the waves?

No, its the same as "Make AmeriKKKa Great Again"
It is more like the proposed NAFTA becoming a supranational body and imposing its legislation on the subordinate national legislatures

The real answer with respect to sovereignty is complex and has no universal definition or acceptance. Trite disparaging putdowns just inflame the conversation and polarise responses. One view is below
https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00911482/document
But you also have to consider the stated aims of the EU
1)Harmonize taxation (a major headache for Ireland, whose preferential regime for multinationals could could take a hit and reduce GDP significantly)
2)Introduce majority voting on certain issues (eventually all)
3)Have an EU defense force(not Nato)
4)Have a common foreign policy (not working too well right now.eg Germany and navsl patrols around Iran)
No doubt other nasties are in the planning stage (Perhaps a supranational Gendarmerie to keep the peasants in line- first by practising on the yellow vests)
The EU is a supranational organization because member states surrender power in specific areas to the higher organization. Decisions taken by a supranational organization must be obeyed by the member states.
Essentially it is a power grab for federalisation and destruction of the nation state. This was hinted at in a two year old guardian article

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/13/jean-claude-junckers-federalist-vision-for-the-eu-is-far-from-reality
all this was denied at the time but compare it with Von der Leyen's
acceptance speech and her stated goals.
Brexiteers believe
Winston S. Churchill — 'it is the people who control the Government, not the Government the people
Remainers believe
Jean-Claude Juncker - President of the European Commission

    "When it becomes serious you have to lie."
    "We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided we continue step by step until there is no turning back."
    "I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious, I am for secret, dark debates."
    "Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?"
    "There is a single legal personality for the EU, the primacy of European law."
    "If it's a 'Yes,' we will say "On we go!" and if it's a 'No' we will say "We continue!"
    “You would not create a European army to use it immediately”

I am all for a second referendum,but subject to the same constraints others have argued for on this forum. It will not alter Brexit unless remainers achieve a majority greater than 65% of the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:31 PM

The goals of the EU in their own words
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutCampaign/comments/36ofm0/quotes_from_federalists_and_prointegrationists/

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Stanron
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:35 PM

This is the first opportunity I've had to post to this thread since it's start. I don't think I've accused anyone of fanaticism in this or any other thread. If I have I'm quite happy to apologise.

I'm not questioning whether the word advisory was used in legislation but I do remember that £9 million leaflet that said quite clearly that the Government would implement the result, not be 'guided by it. They promised to implement it.

Of course that was two Governments away now and they had expected the opposite result.

As for the future, maybe Parliament will do a last minute ratification of Mrs May's deal rather than face the default no deal exit which will be automatic under current law.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:35 PM

So, let me get this right.

You were in favour of a majority of even one vote when "your" side prevailed in the 2016 referendum but NOW you want of majority of 65% plus to remain.

Explain the democracy of that little conundrum.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:51 PM

Had a thought.

As the result of the 2016 was only "advisory" how about the next government be it Conservative, Labour, coalition hold another referendum and clearly state "we will be bound by your, the peoples, decision.

That way those of us on the remain side, if defeated, would have no comeback whatsoever. By the same token those the the leave side could have no comeback.

Hopefully then bridges between the opposing views could start to be rebuilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:59 PM

”I'm not questioning whether the word advisory was used in legislation but I do remember that £9 million leaflet that said quite clearly that the Government would implement the result, not be 'guided by it. They promised to implement it.”

Why do you Brexiteers find it so difficult to understand the principle of Sovereignty of Parliament - the very principle you claimed to be fighting for when you voted Leave?

An Act of Parliament can only be amended or revoked by Parliament - that is the basic founding principle of Parliamentary Sovereignty - and it is not within the power of the PM, or even the government, to amend or revoke an Act.

The EU Referendum Bill 2015 was advisory only and the government was not required to act according to the result. That is undeniable fact! Set out in the supporting documentation of the Bill, and pretty much in those words.

No matter what that bloody leaflet said, or however much it cost to produce, the Act was clear about the advisory nature of the Referendum, and the government did not have the power to over-rule the terms of the Bill.

I did have a link to the part of the documentation of the Bill containing the reference to it being ‘Advisory only’, but I’ve been unable to find it - sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Stanron
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:59 PM

Raggytash wrote: As the result of the 2016 was only "advisory" how about the next government be it Conservative, Labour, coalition hold another referendum and clearly state "we will be bound by your, the peoples, decision.

I take it that you didn't read the leaflet regarding the last referendum when exactly that promise was made.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 04:17 PM

Here you go Stan... - Section 5 refers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 04:53 PM

So, let me get this right.

You were in favour of a majority of even one vote when "your" side prevailed in the 2016 referendum but NOW you want of majority of 65% plus to remain.

Explain the democracy of that little conundrum.

I seem to remember several posters insisting that the winning majority in the last referendum was insufficient. I merely repeat your own arguments back to you. What is your problem?

There is no democracy in that little conundrum, so why do you dispute Brexit?

If you insist on having your cake and eating it be careful you do not choke!

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 05:17 PM

”Raggytash wrote:

As the result of the 2016 was only "advisory" how about the next government be it Conservative, Labour, coalition hold another referendum and clearly state "we will be bound by your, the peoples, decision.

Stanron replied:

I take it that you didn't read the leaflet regarding the last referendum when exactly that promise was made.”

And I take it that you didn’t read my post explaining the principle of ‘Sovereignty of Parliament’ that you people claim you voted Leave in order to uphold, nor the extract from the Briefing Notes to the EU Referendum Bill which I linked to in my later post?

For such a promise to have legal authority, it would need to be embodied in the Bill for a second referendum - something that wasn’t the case in the 2016 Referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 05:38 PM

Brexiteers take comfort in the assurances of the pig's head-screwing Bullingdon hooray-Henry that the referendum result was an "instruction". It wasn't and it never could be, despite his vacuous promises that it would be. Why not? Because there was nothing in law, in the constitution, or anywhere else, to say that it could provide an instruction, impose an obligation or supply a mandate. Nothing that the pig-f**king necrophiliac said could change that. I mean, what part of "advisory" do you brexiteers not understand?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:02 AM

I must admit to a certain lack of interest in the argument about whether the referendum was advisory or not. There is not the slightest doubt in law that the referendum was advisory only. Nor is there the slightest doubt that Parliament, by passing the bill to invoke article 50, exercised its sovereign rights to take that advice and make it effective in law. Of course they did not have to do this, but the essential role of Parliament is to take decisions, which it did.

It is also within the duty of Parliament to debate and potentially change its decisions when it thinks it appropriate, and it would still have that obligation even if the referendum had been legally binding.

All that is the past, and is only of relevance, really, in terms of how it affects current and future decisions. If Boris fights to stay on after a vote of no confidence, he can make the argument that it is line with the 2016 will of the people. But it one based on duty, not law. In theory anyway: in practice it is much more likely to be based on his self-interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:03 AM

This is all water under the bridge. My belief is that Cameron made a pigs ear (scuse the pun) of it and didn't have the guts to admit his mistake. Others have different opinions but none of us can change it.

The question now is, how can the government now satisfy the desires of most of its electorate? Forget this "you lost" business. No party in its right mind would alienate half of its electorate. Leaving without a deal will do that. Remaining will do that. I have given my ideas. Come on, leavers. How would you handle it? Other than by saying "fuck you", as the present administration seem to be doing :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:17 AM

I agree, Dave. We need to focus on the future. There was an interesting article by one of the Brexit MEPs saying he could see a shared interest between them and the LibDems in changing some of the election mechanisms. He wasn't exectly clear what he meant, because he said he was not keen on proportional representation, but he is right to the extent that the FPTP system does under-represent minorities.

The major parties are opposed to this, because obviously they risk losing some power. However, if the LibDems or some other party became Kingmaker, we could see an attempted revision to the voting system as part of the price, as we did with AV.


On another topic, there was an interesting snippet about fishing in, I think, the Independent:

Last month, Didier Guillaume, the French minister of agriculture and food, who also has responsibility for the French fishing industry, said that French fishermen would continue to fish in UK waters, even in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

"It is possible that, with Boris Johnson, we will have a hard Brexit. There is no circumstance in which one could prevent, in which Boris Johnson could prevent, French fishermen from fishing in British waters," he said.
In the event of a no-deal Brexit, key aspects of international fishing law are likely to be perceived in different and contradictory ways by different countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:24 AM

DMcG - nobody has said otherwise. My response was to Stan wittering on about that f**king leaflet and The Pig-Shagger’s Promise, neither of which had the authority to over-ride a Bill passed by Parliament and declare the referendum result ‘binding’.

Both Stan, and our RR-WETRF-B raise those things from time to time as though they had some legal authority. They had less authority than a fart in a hurricane.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:37 AM

That was in response to your post of 03:02 AM of course, DMcG!

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:41 AM

Quite so, Baccy. The leaflets and promises may have had some moral or political currency, but they had no legal significance.


I think that fishing quotation is really important for its wider ramifications. A no-deal does drop a lot of our obligations to others. But the media and propaganda tends to overlook that is also removes the obligations of others to us. Very rarely mentioned, I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:50 AM

I'd have thought discussion of the referendum has been surpassed by the obvious damage that the result has done to Britain
The economy has taken yet another knock and there is now talk of a recession - you can always tell whether things are likely when Ministers deny them, as Javid did yesterday.
Talk of whether the referendum was advisory is rather like Captain Smith of the Titanic giving a lecture on icebergs to the passengers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:04 AM

Brexiteers take comfort in the assurances of the pig's head-screwing Bullingdon hooray-Henry that the referendum result was an "instruction"

I do admire a cogent well constructed argument. You always know when lefties have lost the argument, the insults start flying! The electorate expect their instructions to be followed.
As I quoted previously 'it is the people who control the Government, not the Government the people'. Both blair and brown promised a referendum and reneged, Cameron followed through. Compo does not appear to even know what day it is any more, if his deputy needs to put him in a taxi to the palace for an attempted coup.(I cannot see that turning out too well)
This argument about the referendum being advisory is getting tedious.
Article 50 was voted for by a huge majority. A general election was held with both major parties standing for leave. Now when our departure is on the wire the rabid remainiacs are still bleating 'not fair.'
You lost! After three years you really must get used to the idea. Your counter arguments are fatuous, vacuous and totally without substance.
Even ST. Gina has become the patron saint of lost causes.
This is what happens when reality collides with lefty la-la land.
Go hug a tree and console yourself man,and do not forget the sandals and rose tinted glasses so you may commune with nature more easily.
Meanwhile we brexiteers have urgent work to do, figuring out ways to scupper froggy fishing boats for a starters!

Tic toc, Tic toc!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMM8dCelBFw

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM

It didn't take long did it. May as well close the thread now. It is obvious where it is going :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM

Only if we take the bait Dave
Nobody has to
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM

Well, Dave,
Tolerating Iains, is more-or-less the price you and others of the "usual suspects" have to pay for your own obnoxiousness. Iains posts things that are politically obnoxious, but you "suspects" post things that are just plain obnoxious. If we take action against Iains, then fairness demands that we take action on the lot of you.
I suggest that you all be a lot more civil - including you, Mr. Shaw.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:00 AM

Ok, Joe. You're the boss but can you point to any instance of me being obnoxious in the last few months? If so, I will unreservedly apologise. If not, maybe you need to consider who you aim your ire at more carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:02 AM

I agree that the stuff about the referendum being advisory is water under the bridge as far as getting anything changed, DMcG and Dave, but the lies about the instruction from the people, the will of the country, having to honour the result, etc, are about to be thrown back in our faces big-time by brexiteers in the likely forthcoming election and in any future referendum campaign. We have to have the arguments ready to counteract those lies. It IS true that the referendum was advisory. It is NOT true that we know the will of the people. It IS true that a huge amount has changed since 2016. Those points must be fleshed out and properly articulated. We do have the truth of it on our side, but, as ever, teasing it out is a damn sight harder than making up simplistic, populist, sloganising lies, especially in the current political climate. You can paint a slogan on a bus or a racist poster. Confronting people with the reality of what's about to happen, unless we can stop it, is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:10 AM

I try to, Steve. When it is brought up I point out the truth, as I have in this thread. But there is no point in going over it ad nauseum as tends to happen here.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:20 AM

Looking to the short term future. There several reasons why it is in Mr Johnson's interest to hold a general election as early in November as possible, because it maximises his chances of taking the votes from the Brexit Party supporters and minimises people exposure to any problems arising from leaving. It also means if he wins he is home and dry for years, and if he loses he can blame any downsides of Brexit on Labour - "We won it, they wrecked it".

So it seems to me there is a case for Labour to say it certainly wants a general election but will not vote in support of one that takes place between say November and March the following year. Obviously that would not matter if the election arose from a vote of no confidence, but it would apply to any call by the PM under the Fixed Term Parliament Act. Then the Tories would have to have faced the first six months post departure and they would be responsible for addressing any issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:36 AM

So, Dave, in a few weeks' time we will very likely be confronted by Johnson declaring that he's the man who will honour the instruction of the electorate and carry out the will of the people, come hell or high water, by Halloween. All I'm saying is that, yes, they are old, hackneyed arguments, but they work for him and will work for him again unless we can articulate effective responses. We have to be ready and it's no use for us to keep saying that much has changed since 2016 and we know more now than we did then (any other remainer here who winces every time you hear that?) He's got the easy bit. We will be accused of resurrecting Project Fear...

Might not go well, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:47 AM

Electorates do not instruct. They appoint representatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:50 AM

Joe, are you really going to argue that the Iains post of 04:04, 10th August, is not "plain obnoxious" as well as "politically obnoxious". And he made that post before yours appearing to draw that distinction.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:51 AM

"Iains posts things that are politically obnoxious"
Ians post personal and racist comments about other members of this forum - that trancends politics into a new ball game
This has never been about Iains politics and you know it - you;'ve had it explained it to you often enough - you choose to ignore it
Nothing we can do about itt, it seems other than to hope you don't close another thread to defend him
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 06:27 AM

Now here's a first - I'm hoping for the fall of this government, to be replaced by a government led by somebody upon whom we can rely. I'm thinking a Labour/LibDem coalition led by Hilary Benn.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:41 AM

A piece in today's Guardian by Jonathan Freedland paints a bleak picture of the aftermath of a no-deal crash-out. The title says it all:

"A no-deal Brexit won’t be a clean break: this nightmare will go on for ever"

Anyone who thinks there's such a thing as a clean break is living in cloud-cuckoo land, in other words.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:56 AM

This morning's Times confirms that there will be no recession - according to Javid - just about clinches it, I would say, though he does say that it is necessary to create a bailout fund to assist companies now facing collapse.
Do these people not realise how stupidly disingenuous they are exposing themselves to be?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:58 AM

Agreed. But what is a viable alternative to no deal?

Come on you leavers of reasonable character! Let us have your thoughts on the best way forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 08:06 AM

Less of the oxymorons, Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 10:42 AM

A piece in today's Guardian by Jonathan Freedland paints a bleak picture of the aftermath of a no-deal crash-out. The title says it all:
(This is the same guardian that lost £7million last year and was bailed out by a sugar daddy)

Here is a some spiffing economic news from that paragon of virtue GUIDO
"Fears over the damaged Whaley Bridge dam this week haven’t left the people of Derbyshire with much to cheer, particularly during unwanted visits from the Labour leader. At least they’ve now got some positive economic news that Derby-based train manufacturer Bombardier have won a £2.34 billion contract to make trains for the Cairo monorail, beating off Pharoah-cious competition from Chinese and Malaysian firms. Remainers still in de-Nile while Bombardier’s own Project Fear warnings get confined to the tomb of history…

It comes less than a week after Hitachi Rail announced a £400m investment in their County Durham plant. The good news just keeps Tutan-khamin’…

Did you like that?(as Fred would say)

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 11:53 AM

Bombardier Eygpt COntratc

I hope you are right, but there is nothing in Bombardier's press release to say it will be based in Derby. In fact the press release just says "Headquartered in Berlin, Germany, Bombardier Transportation employs around 40,650 people and its products and services operate in over 60 countries" so if they chose to run it from elsewhere it looks like they could.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 12:43 PM

I take it as face value, and it looks like the beeb did announce it:

Bombardier in Derby to build monorail trains for Cairo - BBC News

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-48435983

May 28, 2019 - Monorail trains for the Egyptian capital Cairo will be built in Derby. Bombardier Transportation will work with Egyptian firms on the Cairo ...Bombardier in Derby to build monorail trains for Cairo - BBC News
I would hope our national broadcaster carried out basic research prior to the release.

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 12:44 PM

Iains - I'd be prepared to converse with you as I would any other mudcatter;
but your belligerent posting history has raised too many suspicions about who and what you are...

I'm not convinced 'you' are not just following directions on what links and ideas to post here...

That's me talking directly to 'you'...

I've made it clear enough I am not a member of any 'cabals',
and they probably wouldn't want me anyway.
I refuse to follow orthodoxies and leaders..

If anything, I may be some kind of non-conformist lefty libertarian
[pending googling on if they exist as a category,
and if it's a self identity I can feel comfy with]..
Maybe that's just another way of describing an old punk-hippy counter-culturalist from the west country...??
who knows...???

Whether you believe me is up to you...

If and when I think a real human called 'Iains' is actually communicating
on a meaningful level,
then I will respond with courtesy and some respect...

For the moment I've become more inclined to think 'you' are a minor cog in in an organised propaganda machine...

Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 01:21 PM

Now, here's an interesting thought - mayhap this "Iains" character ACTUALLY IS Joe Offer!

Or a tag-team of Joe Offer & Bearded Bruce!

---

Time to say bye-bye, kiddies. Please learn to discuss the topic of the thread, and to refrain from personal insults. Thank you. This thread is closed.
-Joe Offer-

Oh, and Mossback, we've tolerated you because you have been behaving reasonably well. But lately, you've gotten out of hand. Your membership is suspended. Send me a polite email August 18 or later, requesting reinstatement. Steve Shaw, you're next.
Please remember that moderator actions may be discussed privately with Max or me or other moderators, but not in public Forum threads.