Duos - Discriminated against again

Subject: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 02:52 AM

Went to a memorial sing around last week. There were lots there so the organiser said if duos could only do one rather than asking everybody if they could keep it short.
My husband and I were regarded as a duo so I didn't even bother to tune up. Went home without contributing.
We went to a sing around last night and they were short of time to get everybody in the last round so we - as the only married couple there - were asked to do one between us. I said no - why not ask all the other contributors to do one between two.
Any thoughts!
FloraG

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: BobL
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:08 AM

Surely the point of any partnership, including marriage, is that you can achieve more together than individually? That the whole is greater than the sum of its parts? Guess your repertoire needs a duet, something written or arranged expressly for two.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:38 AM

Were not really a duo. We developed a local barn dance band and did quite well -with me calling and my husband playing the base. Not really duo material.
If were expected to do one duet - does that mean were still only worth half a solo singer?
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: Acorn4
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:50 AM

It's a tricky one. At our club we give duos a turn each but if we're running out of time near the end sometimes ask them just to do one so we can get round.

We are a duo ourselves and make sure we lead by example on this.

Where it gets tricky is trios, quartets - 52 piece male voice choir...

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:53 AM

If you sing individually, then each should get a turn. But if you sing one song together, then that might well be considered to be the one and only turn for the both of you.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 04:05 AM

I agree with Joe. I know several duos where one sings, and the other plays an instrumental accompaniment. I regard them as one 'act' who should get the same number of songs as if they were a solo performer.

If both sing, two songs per 'turn' would be fair.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 04:22 AM

The organisers of both events are getting one thing right , the event was well attended.
The most important thing about the first event was that it was a memoriam concert, somebody was being remembered?
why was the second event short of time?
when events run short of time there must be a reason, so the root of the problem needs to be sorted, why is it running short of time did performers turn up late?

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:07 AM

I know all my husbands songs - so can play an intro and/or sing along to the chorus. Its not being a duo - its being married for a long time. We don't do clever harmony singing - which I would expect from a duo. ( Not sure we are clever enough for that).
If we are asked to do one thing only between us - who gets the turn? Is it worth me going if all I do is the above? I find we increasingly don't go to clubs that do that.
We are happy to do one between us if the end is nigh - and the thing has been around a few times - but its us volunteering that - not being told by the organiser. Why discriminate against married couples who may or may not see themselves as a duo when others are not asked to do one between two?
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: JHW
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:10 AM

Time runs out in FCs. This side of the sea we still have closing time.
Round the room everyone gets a song or tune. A couple usually get two (though a pair of musicians will often do two medleys). As time runs to a close an organiser or mc has to find a way of winding up and may leave some folks out altogether and yes ask a couple could they just do one. Happened last friday.
On monday a foursome played two songs each time they were asked, their decision, no stipulation.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: banjoman
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:45 AM

I tend to agree with Flora as we were a duo for many years but each capable of doing a solo spot. Perhaps the answer is to advise the person running the event that you are two individual performers, Then if Andy requests someone accompanies his song then you can jump in.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:52 AM

That sounds fine. I would be more than happy with that.
When I run sessions I think I do much the same. I think I was probably being a bit Bolshy last night by saying no, but it happens too many times that we get half the opportunities to play/ sing or none at all.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 06:07 AM

In the UK, the Equality Act (2010) is designed to protect people from discrimination based on certain ‘protected characteristics’:

    Age
    Race
    Sex
    Gender reassignment
    Disability
    Religion or belief
    Sexual orientation
    Marriage or civil partnership
    Pregnancy and maternity

You’ll note that couples being forced to perform as duos in folk clubs is not among them.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 06:28 AM

I was at a Folk festival in Nantwich some years back at a round-the-room type session, and there was a German band there (brass band, accordion band, I can't remember). Not sure if they had come for the festival, they didn't seem particularly folky. They were asked if they would like to play something and introduced it as a Suite. After the first tune, they started the second and someone muttered about it being 1 tune each, but they were overruled as a) it was a Suite, b) there were a lot of them (they probably outnumbered the rest). Fair decision I think, though it put the organiser in an awkward spot as it wasn't quite what most had expected to hear.

I take the point about medleys, maybe OK if others are expected to join in. Otherwise maybe '1 tune each or a medley between you'. But some songs have more verses than others, too.
Most of the clubs I've been to have given couples a tune each, though actually a lot of the things I go to are 'jump in' and most people are careful to let others get their turn. It can be a pain when someone 'hogs' a session (and we all know someone who does).

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 09:25 AM

If Flora asks to be treated as an individual and take a turn like other individuals, her marital status has nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 10:43 AM

Make a point of sitting on the opposite side of the circle to your husband.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:03 AM

Thanks for all the comments. I'm on chemo at the moment so it takes a lot of effort to get anywhere and then to be ignored!
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:46 AM

This kind of thing is why I don't like singarounds very much.

"Jump-in" session/singarounds tend to share the venue with an audience, and putting on a performance they'll appreciate is a large part of the aim. Who performs what next is decided by what's most effective in the moment, and the idea of having the right to that time slot would be just plain nuts.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 05:03 AM

Flora wishing you a speedy recovery get well soon

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 05:03 AM

I agree with Jack, in that a jump in session allows you to share the performance with the audience better. If you go around the room in turn, you inevitably get several unaccompanied ballads one after the other, or conversely several almost identical tunes one after another, simply because kindred performers tend to sit together, if only for moral support. Otherwise, the best idea in the posts above must be to sit well apart from each other..

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 05:04 AM

Whether two people are viewed as a duo, and therefore ‘one act’, at a ‘session’ might also be affected by whether the norm for that session is that everyone joins in with a number if they know it. If that’s the case, the second of the two people, joining in, is just being a normal member of the session even if they are adding something that no one else is, or is capable of, adding. If no-one else normally joins in then the second person is likely to appear to be part of the ‘act’ and the two people will appear to be a duo whether or not they are adding a specific accompaniment, harmonies or just singing in unison.   (I have read that, despite the Copper Family, harmony singing was not usual in tradition English music so perhaps adding harmonies should not be the main criterion.)

That still doesn’t address the question of whether it should always be one song/tune per person or per act but it might go some way to explaining the reasons why, at a particular session, a decision is taken.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 05:31 AM

I rather think that was Flora’s original point - your first paragraph.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 05:35 AM

I `ad that Flora in my cab the other day. She was engrossed in something on one of these `ere smart phones, the ones you flick all the pictures around with your finger.
I said, "Morning Flo. Whatcha got there then? You checking on the `orse racing or something?"
She said, "No Jim. I`m reading the comments on a thread I started on that Mudcat about `ow many songs or tunes you get at a session. `ere, you`ve been at it for years. What do you think about it?"
I said, "Cor Blimey, they all get a bit precious about it , don`t they? But I do remember we played it to our advantage once. We were punting for gigs down in Sussex once so Tony, `is wife and two daughters and me and `er indoors went down this open mike night. We`d taught the others `ow to get noises out of spoons, Jaw`s `arps, tambourines and castanets. When we got there the bloke running it said, "`ow many?". We said six. `e gulped but gave us six consecutive numbers in each `alf. We `ogged the night got the booking, nice little earner!"



Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 07:33 AM

Thanks Jim - but me - a smart phone! I only learn new things on the computer when the cat sits on the keyboard.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 09:04 AM

Shouldn’t the cat should sit on the mouse mat?

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 09:05 AM

You may not regard yourselves as a performing duo, but if you frequently join in on your husband's songs then that is how you may appear to other people. If it is happening regularly you should explain to club organisers that you are two separate solo performers and expect to be treated as individuals. However don't then join in with each other, as it may appear you are trying to have it both ways.

Subject: RE: Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 09:46 AM

Your probably right Howard. I think I'm being extra grouchy at the moment.
Usually duos are more interesting than solos, so perhaps they should get 3 times the time- if they do 3 very different things, than a single performer. Its when they get half the time that I tend to think odd.
At one club we used to go to to they usually gave everybody 2 -but if it was very busy then you only got one. We were always happy enough when it was 2 ( one each) even if it meant we did less than others, but when it was one I always let my husband take the lead which I sometimes joined in with and sometimes not. I think what I could of done was have him sing - and me - do 20 different tunes between each verse. I never did - we just don't bother to go.
At the club we went to the other night there were quite a few just reading from music- so they could have easily done one thing between each 2. Why pick on us?
FloraG

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 07:39 PM

When I ran a club I reached the conclusion that using the number of songs as a measure was not useful for good time keeping. Obviously, some people had very short songs and some the opposite. Also, some people would add to their time on stage with eg, tuning, jokes, banter, starting again because they had made a mistake. And what about instrumentalists who could string four or five tunes together and call it an item?

My solution was to ask people to think of their slot as 12 minutes. They could perform as many songs or tunes or jokes or indulge in banter as much as they liked as long as they kept within the 12 minutes. This tended to make people consider the slot as a whole entity rather than just two songs. Generally speaking, it worked quite well. It doesn't really address the discrimination against duos issue but I did apply it to all of the acts.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: PHJim
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 09:07 PM

Could you get around this by simply not telling anyone that you were a couple and just performing as individuals?

We had a folk club in Cobourg where we had the "3 songs or 15 minutes, whichever came first" rule.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 03:06 AM

We've been around too long in the same area for people not to know were a couple. I think arriving in the same car at the same time gives it away.
The 12 minute rule makes it sound more like open mike. Singer guitarists singing from music can be quite tedious. Why not 12 minutes per instrument?

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 03:55 AM

12 minutes per instrument sounds great. The session I was at on Wednesday, my bag held 4 recorders, 4 whistles, 6 ocarinas, flute, clarinet, chalumeau, washboard and scallop shells. For the second half - "my friend the moothie player will start with the Marine Band in C, then a D/G tremolo, Lee Oskar in G harmonic minor..."

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 04:53 AM

I think if it happens just very occasionally then it seems reasonable to comply as it will help out the organiser who is trying to make everything fit into a limited time. If it happens a lot then extremely annoying and unfair.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:13 AM

I suppose the problem arises when one member of the duo wants to sing The Famous Flower of Serving Men and the the other wants to do Desolation Row - that's half the evening gone.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:17 AM

Train your husband to ask pointedly "Are you going to do one or shall I?"

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:21 AM

Or, work out some sets where a song he likes to sing can be merged with a tune you like to play (maybe 20 is going a bit far). But that would be accepting yourselves as a duo so counterproductive.

Are any of the MCs at these clubs Mudcat members?

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:30 AM

I attend a singaround where, first time around, individuals perform two songs and duos perform three. Second time around (if there's time) every act might get a chance to do one more. It works well largely because everyone is good natured and realises that the organiser does their best to be fair an equitable.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 08:31 AM

I know of plenty of couples who turn up together but only perform as individuals, and no one has ever confused them as a duo because their behaviour makes it quite clear they are not. From how you've described some of your behaviour (such as joining in with your husband) it may have given the impression that you are a duo, at least part of the time. To change this not only do you need to explain it to the organiser but you probably also need to reinforce it by performing your solo spots entirely independently without joining in with each other.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 09:54 AM

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43997/the-rime-of-the-ancient-mariner-text-of-1834

Big Al, put it to music and make that your opening number the next time you're given "three songs' instead of a time limit.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 03:31 PM

I think I was most annoyed at the memorial sing around when my husband did a solo on the parting glass - he does that well- and I was ignored. The family had asked for some Steel Eye and I had a song ready in my head. There were also 2 very good duos ( not us) who only got one song between them and quite a few tedious solo singers.
Never mind. Got in today and had a phone message - can we do something to help raise money for a local church? I'm sure we can.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 08:45 PM

It happens sometimes to one of my friends and I: she will accompany me on a song, but then, a singer herself, not get asked to do one. We are not a formal duo either. We have got wise to this, over the years, and if they try to move on to the next person after us, I will usually say, "What about L? Give her a turn". While I appreciate time constraints in a session, neither of us sing particularly long songs, tho there is always some totally insensitive someone who will launch into a 40-verse dreich ballad just when time is running out and half a dozen or so people are still hoping to get a song in!

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 10:46 PM

Yes goodwill and unselfishness is at the heart of the enterprise.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 07:33 AM

Why should a duo be entitled to do more songs than anyone else? A performance is a performance, whether it's by a solo performer, a duo or a large band. Someone who is also a soloist as well as performing in a duo or band might hope to get a solo spot as well, but when time is tight they should expect to be among the first to be cut out if they've already had a chance to perform.

The problems both FloraG and Tattie Bogle describe arise because they appear not to be consistent, and sometimes play alongside a partner while both still wanting to be treated as soloists. If you don't want to be regarded as a duo, don't perform as one.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 07:43 AM

BINGO! The answer in a nutshell, Howard!

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 09:26 AM

Fair enough to only take one turn if the session is very crowded and it's a struggle to fit everyone in, but if there is plenty of time, then why on earth not? My friend and I also tend to choose rather different material from each other, we both sing, and we play different instruments, which can complement each other or how the song sounds. Plainly we'll have to agree to differ with some of you on this one.

Is there also "positive discrimination"? E.g.when so-and-so group, maybe slightly famous, wanders into a session, and immediately gets asked to sing, out of the usual run of things. Then "Oh well, there are four of you, so let's have 3 more songs"! It does happen: the performance is usually very enjoyable, but may mean that someone who has been patiently waiting for ages has to be left out. Now that IS stretching it a bit.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 09:55 AM

I agree, and as I said previously, if there's time then there's no reason why members of a duo/band shouldn't also perform solo. It's when time is short that it becomes an issue, and then you can't expect to have it both ways.

If someone new comes to a session, and especially if they are any good or even "slightly famous" why on earth wouldn't you take advantage of their presence to hear something different? You can go back to listening to the same old singers and the same old songs the following week.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 10:31 AM

"Same old songs" - with a few exceptions most of my singer friends seem to manage to come up with different ones each time!
And I would normally expect anyone new at a session to take their turn, like the rest of us: at one session I go to, anyone who arrives late is given their turn after everyone else who arrived on time, rather than in order of seating.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 11:20 AM

This idea of how many songs or tunes one is entitled to perform at sing and play evenings or sessions etc., it really is banal and tedious; as if there is some democratic rule that was established and introduced in clubs, moons ago, which there was not. Why not just go along, do your thing, not counting how many you are and expecting how many to do and listen and enjoy others. I`m sure when you review the events you have attended over the course of a year you will be pleasantly surprised at what you heard and learned and you will also have had a fair crack of the whip.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:02 AM

John - your probably right.
Being on Chemo it takes a lot more effort than usual to get myself to a do, pack the car, tune the instruments, find somewhere to park, walk to the pub, find a seat, sort out a drink and be ready. To then be ignored for the evening because my husband sang a song - not one I know- was a bit of a downer. ( His song was good - he'd bothered to learn it ).
I tend to avoid clubs like that but it was a special memorial evening.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:40 AM

'Discriminated against'? Again? At a 'special memorial evening?' @#&*!!!

Sorry you're not well, Flora, but your sense of entitlement screams off the page. That may be the very reason you don't get the kind of attention you crave.

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 04:11 AM

What an unkind spiteful cowardly post guest guest, furthermore hiding behind anonymity, yiou should be ashamed of yourself

Subject: RE: Duos - Discriminated against again
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 06:04 AM

Yes, quite. I wasn’t at the memorial session in question, but I can picture the scenario. Lots of people all wanting to contribute, so clearly limited opportunities for everyone to contribute, but pretty galling if you had made the effort to prepare a poignant contribution but there is no time for it because others have wasted precious time fumbling through their dog eared ring binders looking for stuff they couldn’t even bother to learn for the event. What sort of memorial is that?