Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song

Subject: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 10:08 AM

The role of the Travellers contribution to our folk songs has raised its head recently - I thought maybe it was time to give it its own thread
This is an article based on a talk I gave in the 80s at a folklore conference in Sheffield in 1982 - if the mods feel it is too long, I'll happily cut it
Thanks
Jim Carroll

MICHAEL McCARTHY, SINGER AND BALLAD SELLERS Jim Carroll
In 1973, Pat Mackenzie, Denis Turner and I made contact with several of the large number of Irish Travellers that were to be found in and around the Greater London area. We started recording singers, having very little experience in this field and, in six weeks, had collected over a hundred songs and completed a list of potential informants that would keep us occupied for the next five years, if they were all to be followed up.
It became obvious to us that there was much more to be collected than songs and that we would have to evolve a method of work that would allow us to use the time we had available to the best advantage. Coincidentally, about the time we were reaching this conclusion, the London Borough Councils were putting into motion policies designed to clear their areas of Travellers. Almost overnight, it seemed, all the people we were in contact with had been evicted from their sites and scattered all around the outskirts of London, making it virtually impossible for us to continue our work with them.
We decided that the best way to proceed was to index the collection, take a look at the material and see if we could not arrive at a method of work; it was nearly eighteen months before we took it up again. We had reached the conclusion that the best method for us was to concentrate our attention on a small number of informants and record not only songs but as much information on travelling life and culture as possible. We were able to meet up once more with our original contacts and begin work again, but progress was slow as most of them were camped a fair distance outside London and, as we were only able to work at weekends or evenings, the time we could spend with them was very limited.
One evening, after a long period of doing very little recording, we were drinking in a pub to the west of London when one of the Travellers pointed out a man engaged (we thought) in conversation with several other men. We approached the group and found that in fact he was singing to them. We introduced ourselves and asked if he would be prepared to sing for us. He agreed and the following evening we began working with Mikeen McCarthy, work we have not yet completed after eight years.
Mikeen (Little Michael) McCarthy was born fifty years ago in Cahirsiveen, a small town on the Iveragh Peninsula in County Kerry in the south west of Ireland. His parents followed the traditional travelling trades: tin-smithing, horse dealing, hawking, chimney sweep¬ing and, like a number of travelling families, spent eight months of the year on the road and rented a house for the winter, thus enabling Mikeen and his four sisters to get a little education. In addition to these trades, Michael McCarthy, senior, spent some time abroad as a soldier in the First World War and as a miner and bare-fist prizefighter in South Wales. Both of Mikeen’s parents were singers, his father being in great demand as one, among Travellers and in the settled community in Kerry. His mother was an Ullagoner, one of the women who were called on to keen or lament at funerals.
Mikeen took up tin-smithing as his first trade but later became skilled as a caravan builder. Some of the beautiful barrel-topped vans that are now used to haul holidaymakers around the roads in the south west of Ireland were built by him.
During his youth, he worked with his mother at the fairs and markets selling ‘the ballads’, the song sheets that were still being sold in rural Ireland right into the fifties. These sheets, measuring about 12 inches by 5 inches, were printed on coloured paper and contained the words of one song. The trade was carried on almost exclusively by Travellers. The songs appearing on the sheets were by no means all traditional. Titles mentioned to us were ‘Little Grey Home in the West’, ‘Smiling Through’, ‘Home Sweet Home’, and ‘No Place Like Home’, as well as ‘Rocks of Bawn’, ‘Sailor’s Life’, ‘Betsy of Ballentown Brae’, and ‘Willie Reilly and his Colleen Bawn’.
Mikeen was able to describe to us in great detail how these ballads were printed and distributed. Although, as I have mentioned, he had received some education, his writing ability was somewhat limited; his mother is still unable to read and write. They would go into a town or village where a market was to take place and approach a local printer. The words of a selected song would be recited to the printer who would take them down and an order would be placed for the required number. In Kerry, where the McCarthys traded, the sheets were illustrated with a picture that related to the song: ‘A man’s song would have the picture of a man at the top, a woman’s would have a woman’s head’. This does not appear to have been the case throughout Ireland; in County Clare we have been told that the sheets contained the words only, with no illustration.
When they were printed they were taken around the fairs, usually to the bars, and sold at a penny each, though sometimes, towards the end of the day, they would be sold for less. A seller had to be able to supply tunes for the songs on sale; quite often a transaction depended on this. Mikeen described how, at a fair in Tralee, a customer was so anxious to learn a song that he pushed a pound note into Mikeen’s top pocket every time he sang the song through: ‘I went home with eleven pounds that time’.
Attitudes to ballad selling appeared to have differed among Travellers. Although it was carried out almost exclusively by them, by many it was regarded as no better than begging: ‘They thought it was a low trade, but I didn’t, I was glad to do it. I still would if I had the chance.’ Even Mikeen’s parents disagreed about it: ‘My mother thought it was okay, but my father didn’t like the idea of his songs going on them; if he found out there’d be trouble.’
The songs that were selected for the sheets would depend on where they were to be sold: ‘Some would sell well in one place and some in another... If you could get a song that nobody knew in that place, you had a winner.’ Quite often Mikeen would be asked if he had any of his father’s songs for sale. Such a request would be complied with the next time that place was visited.
The practice of ballad selling appears to have died out some time in the late fifties. One of the last songs to have appeared on a ballad was ‘The Pub with No Beer’. These ballad sheets, along with the song page in the weekly magazine, Ireland’s Own, have exerted a very strong influence, for good or ill, on the singing tradition in Ireland over the last fifty years. We have yet to meet an Irish traditional singer who has not learned songs from them.
We were interested to find that a song, entered in the Stationers’ Register in 1675, was still being sold on a ballad sheet right into the 1950s. Moreover, it is still popular among Irish Travellers today as in Example 1, which was recorded in late 1975.

Example 1 THE BLIND BEGGAR(Laws N27) Michael McCarthy Late 1975

Oh, there was a blind beggar, for a long time was blind,
He had one only daughter who was handsome and kind;
He had one only daughter, a fair maid was she,
And the name that she went by was bonny Bessie.

The first came to court her was a rich squire so grand,
He courted lovely Bessie then all the night long,
Saying, ‘My land, gold and silver, I will give to thee,
If you’ll tell me your father, my bonny Bessie.’

Oh, the next came to court her was a captain from sea,
He courted lovely Bessie in then every degree,
Saying, ‘My ship, gold and silver, I will give to thee,
If you’ll tell me your father, my bonny Bessie.’

Oh, the next came to court her was a merchant so grand,
He courted lovely Bessie then all the night long,
Saying, ‘I’ll buy you some fine satins right down to your toes,
If you’ll tell me your father, my bonny Bessie.’

Oh, my father he’s a blind man that is very well known,
He is led by a dog and a chain and a bell,
He is led by a dog and a chain and a bell.
Will you roll into my arms, my bonnie Bessie.

Oh I’ll buy you fine satins right down to your toes,
I’ll build you a mansion right up to the moon,
And the blind man he laid down ten times as much more.

As well as information about the ballad sheets, Mikeen has provided us with many insights into the singing tradition in Ireland, especially concerning the singer’s approach and relationship to his material. We had been working with him for over a year and had got to know him quite well when we decided to question him about how he felt about his songs; which songs he felt important, which songs he had learned just to sell, which ones he had picked up because he happened to be around when they were being sung. We got him to sing one of his songs, ‘Betsy of Ballentown Brae’ (Laws P28), and we asked him what he thought about while he was singing it. He furnished us with a complete description of all the characters in the song, what they looked like, what they wore, where they lived (not Ballentown Brae), and a description of the area where the action of the song takes place. None of this information is given in the text. He described the mental process that took place while singing as; ‘like watching a film at the pictures, or watching television’. We asked him if this was the case with all his songs, to which he replied that he thought it was. We then took one of his non-traditional songs, ‘I Wish All my Children were Babies Again’, and repeated the procedure; he was unable to supply us with any information about the song. Then we asked him to sing ‘Early in the Month of Spring’ (Laws K12), to which he provided a full visual description, as with the first song. Again we took a non-traditional song, ‘The Night You Gave Me Back my Ring’, and once more he was unable to provide us with any description. We have found this visual identification with traditional songs common to most, though not all, of the singers we have questioned so far.
It has been our experience that, while all the singers we have recorded have no compunction in singing non-traditional material, country-and-western, parlour ballads, pop songs, etc., they do separate these in their minds from traditional songs, often having a term that describes the type of song (this is the case with both Travellers and settled singers). One travelling woman we have been recording for some time now has given us over sixty songs and, though we are aware that she could easily double this number with non-traditional material, she has constantly avoided doing so: ‘You don’t want them, they’re modern songs’. She told us that she doesn’t like the ‘modern songs’, but is expected to sing them by other Travellers, especially when she sings in the pubs. She describes all the traditional songs she has given us so far as her father’s songs, even though, on questioning, she can remember exactly where she got all her songs, and it turns out that only half-a-dozen actually came from her father. So far, after nearly ten years work with Irish Travellers, we have recorded less than a dozen non-traditional songs, although this has not been a deliberate policy on our part.
This differentiation also covers the way that the songs are sung. On one occasion when we were introduced to the brother of one of our informants, we were taken aside by another singer who told us that we shouldn’t ‘waste our time’ with him as, even though he had the old songs, ‘he can’t sing them properly’. It turned out that the person in question was accustomed to singing country-and-western songs and everything he sang, including versions of ‘The Outlandish Knight’ and ‘The Lover’s Ghost’, was given country-and-western treatment!
Mikeen McCarthy values his songs as belonging to a time that is now gone, along with the old trades and a way of life that, though by no means easier, was far more tolerable than today. Some of this attitude may be accounted for by the fact that one tends to look back on the past through the rose-tinted spectacles of hindsight, but there can be no doubt that all the Travellers we have met got more satisfaction out of tin¬smithing, caravan building, and horse trading than they do from today’s main occupations of collecting scrap and shifting rubbish. Mikeen places the action of most of the songs we have questioned him about in locations he has visited during what he considers as ‘better times’.
As a singer, Mikeen is by no means the most skilful we have recorded, but in many ways he is the most easy to listen to. His delivery can best be described as conversational and his approach narrative. The phrase used in the west of Ireland, to ‘tell a song’, sums up perfectly Mikeen’s singing. In a folk club (he has appeared at the London Singers’ Club several times), he will select a member of the audience to use as a focal point and sing to them. Whilst he is singing, he becomes totally engrossed in the story of the song.
As well as having a repertoire of fifty odd songs, he also has a large number of stories, ranging from the traditional tales and legends of Ireland, to stories and anecdotes about travelling life. This aspect of his culture is still very active and he is constantly coming up with fresh material that he has recently learned. Two months ago he told us a version of ‘The Bishop of Canterbury’ tale that he had heard that week. On one occasion he told us a joke he had just heard from another Traveller, about a travelling couple with a large family, in conversation with a wealthy landowner with no children. This he told us as a dirty joke, in the third person, with just basic narrative and containing no detail. A couple of weeks later he re-told us the joke, which had by then undergone a number of changes and additions. About a month later he told us it again but, by then, it had been padded out with much more description and completely personalised, that is, told as having happened to him and his wife. He has a number of stories in his repertoire which are tale versions of traditional songs, including ‘the one about the rich girl who ran off with a gypsy’. Example 2 is a tale that shares its plot with the ballad, ‘Get Up and Bar the Door’.

Example 2 GO FOR THE WATER
There was a brother and a sister one time, they were back in the west of Kerry. Oh and a very remote place altogether. So the water was that far away from them that they always used to be grumbling and grousing, the two of them, which of them would go for the water. They’d always come to the decision anyway that they’d have their little couple of verses and whoever’d stop first, they’d have to go for the water. So they’d sit at both sides of the fire anyway and there was two little hobs that time, there used be no chairs, only two hobs. One would be sitting at one side and one at the other side and maybe Jack would have his doodeen, d’you know, that’s what they used to call a little clay pipe, and Jack’d sing:

Oh then hom-dom-dee-doodle-le-dom-the-doo-rom-day,
Racks-fol-the-vo’lean, the vo-vo-vee.

So now it would go over to Mary:

[sung] ‘Oh, then...’ etc.

So back to Jack again:

[sung] ‘Oh, then...’ etc.

So they’d keep on like that from morning maybe until night and who’d ever stop would have to go for the water. So there was an old man from Tralee, anyway, and he was driving a horse and sidecar, they’d be calling it a taxi now. He’d come on with his horse and sidecar maybe from a railway station or some place and they’d hire him to drive them back to the west of Dingle. So bejay, he lost his way anyway, and ‘twas the only house for another four or five miles, so in he goes to enquire what road he’d to take. And when he landed inside the door, he said, How do I get to Ballyferriter from here? And Mary said:

[sung] ‘Oh, then.‘etc.

So over he went, ‘What’s wrong with that one? She must be mad or something.’ And over to the old man, he said, ‘How do I get to Ballyferriter from here?’

[sung] ‘Oh, then.‘etc.

He go back over to Mary and he was getting the same results off Mary; and back to Jack again. Now this old man, he wouldn’t take a chance and go off without getting the information where the place was. So he catches hold of Mary and starts tearing her around the place, ‘Show me the road to Ballyferriter!’, shaking her, pushing her and pulling her and everything.

[sung] ‘Oh, then ‘etc.

And he kept pulling her and tearing her around the place and he pucking her and everything. ‘Oh, Jack,’ says she, ‘will you save me?’ ‘Oh, I will, Mary, but you’ll have to go for the water!’

Travelling life has undergone radical changes in the last thirty or forty years. Changes in farming methods and the development of materials such as plastic have meant that Travellers can no longer make a living at tinsmithing, and the mechanisation of farming has led to the almost total disappearance of the travelling horse and donkey dealer. Once the Travellers were welcome visitors in rural areas for their manual skills and also for their abilities as singers, musicians, and storytellers. One farmer in the west of Ireland told us how, when they were in his area, he would go off with them for a week at a time ‘just to pick up a few songs’. Music once played a vital part in Irish rural life. In parts of County Clare, so important was it that, when the floors were being laid in newly built cottages, an old iron pot or kettle, or an animal’s skull was placed beneath a flagstone in a central spot in the kitchen (the main room), so that when that spot was danced on, the sound would reverberate. These cavities were known as ‘battering pots,
The decline in the musical tradition in Ireland has played a strong part in the fact that the communication between the settled and travelling communities has all but disappeared. It should be remembered that the death of these musical traditions was not entirely from natural causes as it was elsewhere in the British Isles. It was helped on its way by the combined efforts of the Catholic clergy, who objected to the country house and crossroads dances on the grounds that they were detrimental to the morals of the youth of Ireland, and the Irish Government’s Public Dance Halls Act of 1936 which required all public dancing to be licensed under conditions laid down by the District Justices. Thanks to the isolation of the travelling community and, until recently, the immunity from outside cultural influences such as television and radio, singing and storytelling survived as living traditions right into the 1970s. When we first started recording Travellers in 1973, it was still possible to go back to the site after the pub closed and become involved in singing sessions around an open fire. The development of the portable, battery-powered television virtually destroyed this in a matter of a couple of years. Nevertheless, it is still possible to find Travellers with large repertoires and considerable singing skills. Mikeen, at the age of fifty, is one of the oldest singers we have recorded to date, the majority being between twenty and forty years old.
Travellers have had a considerable influence on the musical and singing traditions of Ireland, both by distributing the songs on ballad sheets and by carrying them and the tunes from area to area. Their migrations to and fro across the Irish Sea are among the reasons why it is possible to find songs in the repertories of Galway, Clare, and Donegal singers that are usually associated with England and Scotland, and vice versa.
Singers like Mikeen have made a tremendous contribution to the singing traditions of the past and are still able to assist us in our understanding of those traditions. Apart from the older songs, they have been instrumental in preserving songs that have come into being during their own lifetimes and have gained very little, if any, currency outside the communities in which they were conceived. Such a song is the final example recorded in spring 1976, concerning a Roscommon farmer who, on reaching the age of seventy-one, decides that he should marry and so advertises for a wife in the local paper, with unforeseen consequences.

Example 3 FLOWERY NOLAN Michael McCarthy Spring 1976

Oh, he lived upon the Stokestown Road, convenient to Arphin,
A man called Flowery Nolan, a terror to all men;
He reached the age of seventy-one and he thought it himself it was time
For to go and get a missus, his wedding ‘twould be no crime.

Oh, several maids came offer to him and from them all he fled,
Except one young fair maid, her fortune was rather high,
So he took and he married this young fair maid to be his wedded wife.

Oh, the wedding it lasted two nights and one day till one night going in to bed,
Oh, Flowery turned all to his wife and these are the words he said;
‘You think you are my wedded wife but I’ll tell you you’re not,
You are only but my serving maid and better is your lot.

Oh, there is two beds in my bedroom and take the one to the right,
I lived all alone for seventy-one and I’ll lie alone tonight.’

Oh, when Mrs. Nolan heard those words she thought her husband queer,
Oh, packing up her belongings and from him she went away;
She tramped the road to her father’s house and ‘tis there she did remain,
And then all the men in the Stokestown Road wouldn’t get her back again.

So now all ye pretty young fair maids, take a warning take by me,
Never marry an old man or ‘tis sorry you will be,
Never marry an old man until you’re fed up of your life,
Or then you’ll be coming home again like Flowery Nolan’s wife.

“He was an old bachelor for years, he used to be always talking about getting married, but when he made up his mind to get married, he’d wait until the next year, and the next year, and he’d go on like that till he was seventy-one years of age. The farmers round told him it would do no harm to have someone to look after him, so he advertised in the paper for a wife; it was a joke more than anything else. All the lads around the parish were more blackguards than anything else, so a lot of the girls came around pulling his leg, letting on they were going to marry him. This one really meant it. Out of all her jokes, till she got the dirty turn-out”.

This paper was given at the ‘Traditional Song’ conference at Leeds, 20 November 1982, and accompanied by tape-recorded examples. Transcriptions of Examples 1 and 2 have previously been published elsewhere, in ‘Michael McCarthy: Irish Travelling Man’, English Dance and Song, 45, no. 1 (1983), 11- 14, and Example 3 in Sharon Gmelch and Pat Langan, Tinkers and Travellers (Dublin: O’Brien, 1975), p. 139. The transcriptions here are by Ian Russell.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 10:31 AM

Not too long, Jim, too short!! But I read it twice to make up.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 12:20 PM

Thank you for that Jim. My experience of living with and working with Travellers in England is very different to that which you describe above. Certainly the rituals of courtship, and the clean bowl dirty bowl rules of behaviour indoors, are ones I have had to deal with as a Gorgio married to a traveller. There are the' below and above the waist' rules as well as regards animals in the trailer and wo betide if I were to place my tea mug on the floor! However I am assuming that you are aware of all of this already. I am one of the only non Gypsy men to have the art of Gypsy wagon painting under my belt, and I have also been taught the way to value a Wagon old or new at first look. I am also familiar with the great builders and their families.
If this is of any interest to this thread I will gladly supply all details, and give You Tube links if required.
kind regards
Nick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 12:32 PM

Thank you, Jim.
Certainly not too long!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 12:32 PM

Hi Nick; Are there still artisans building these wagons ? How many travellers still use these wagons. I have not seen many of these except in Photos, some are stunning. Do the builders decorate them, or is that done by another type of artist or does the family do the painting ?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 01:31 PM

I stopped building six years ago. I do my own painting and other peoples, although I'm a bit choosey who. The younger generation are building now. one of the Lee's and also some of the Vairey's. One of the Vairey's is painting, but not particularly well. The Jowett Brothers are still building to an alarmingly high quality, with an alarmingly high price attached. In wagon days you did not flash up your wagon unless you had done well with carpets or horses.
Jimmy Berry or Tommy Gaskin are the great originals and the painting style is derived from Circus/Fairground painting, and Victorian Curlicue wildly overdone. There is only one British Family still in a Wagon fulltime, albeit with a vinyl canvas, and that's Dave Rawlins. He's married to Queen Caroline Hughes niece. He sang an interesting version of 'Hares in the old Plantation', with a Romany verse in it.
(For Jim and Mike)

Mandi lelled Jackmarr and Dewey too
Mandi lelled him in my Poshni
I penned to me Juk it's arras to jall
The Weshenengro do pivvi.

(Quick translation ( Come on Dogs I'll put the Hare in my Pocket and lets get out of here! The gamekeepers coming!)
I'll stop there because I don't want to start dominating this thread in case it's not what Jim had in mind when he started it.

That said I work best when you ask me questions.
kind regards
Nick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 02:27 PM

Thank yourself Nigel (as they say in Clare)
Please don't stop for me - Nick - I opened this thread to get an overview - for myself included
Yes - I would like to hear mor about English Travellers - while I met a lot of Scots and Irish ones, my experiences with the English was somewhat limited (though not totally ignorant)
We worked in London, which tended to be a bit of a melting-pot with quite a lot of inter-marriage
The only time we did anything with English Travellers was through Mikeen (above) who was an activist for Travellers rights in teh East End - we helped where we could (and were wanted)
The only family we came really close to was that of Ned Riley and Lucy (previously Smith)
Ned and Mikeen once had a caravan bulding company in the South West of Ireland and helped establish the first horse-drawn holiday company - mainly for rich Yanks
Ned and Mikeen were both skilled craftsmen - wheel and harness makers - Lucy was a lovely, extremely humorous lady who had us choking with laughter one night when she described the problems they had when the police or Council moved them on
Like many English Travellers, she had a magnificent collection of china ornaments so when they had to move it usually took them a day to carefully wrap everything up so it didn't get damaged - Ned, typical of Irish Travellers, didn't go in for such things   
Both Ned and Mikeen were skilled horsemen from their youth
I don't know if you are aware, but London had a weekly horse-fair in Southall, West London - it has a large Asian population
The sale ran into over 100 horses per week - everything from blood racers to donkeys destined for the glue factory
It was fascinating to go with Ned and Mikeen and hear them discuss the merits of the stock on sale

Must go - a local history lecture to attend (pre-Christian Clere - would you believe - can't wait !!!!!!!!
Tomorrow
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 03:21 PM

Mally and I have been to the Southall Horse Fair. Not only good bloodstock but cheap tools and a good auction. We had a great curry locally as I remember. There is a lot of Asian harness about which is not so good and snaps easily. As I remember there were a couple of good London Collars and you could put up a good yoke there but no drays or even exercise carts.
English and Irish travellers have an uneasy relationship. Most Irish Travellers in England have never seen the Holy Ground but still hold a poor view of the Brits, however things were getting better, then the drug culture ravaged both communities as it does in the settled people and the old boys are in despair. Two generations of trust and co-operation were smashed to pieces just outside Appleby when two lads who may or may not have been travellers drove a car into the village green and 'yogged' it (set fire to it). The locals retreated and the Gypsies moved on, the English blaming the Irish and vice versa.
On a more positive note here is a song penned by the Gypsies and sung by Peter Ingram the great Wagon painter. You can find it at my site on the BL It sums up the old Gypsies view of the world very well.

As I sit on the wheels of my Wagon
Thinking of days long ago
The Chavvies have gone off and left me
to a life full of hardship and woe

The roads are not free as they once were
No place for me horses to graze
They've built houses all over the heath now
and forgotten the old fashioned ways

The men are ashamed to wear Dicklers
the women have cut off their hair
They've forgotten they're Romany life style
and give it all up and don't care.

My daughters are married to Gorgios
and my sons are out after the scrap
I don't know why ever they do it.
I love my old pony and trap

But I'll end my life on the road though
With me Jukel and Vardo and Grai
I hope they remember tradition
And burn it all up when I die!

I thought that was quite a lesson in the old ways when I collected it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 06:55 PM

The courtship ritual as I heard it is as follows.
If a Gypsy man wishes to take out another mans daughter, he goes to her father and asks permission. If the Father considers it out of the question, then that's an end to it. If he is amenable but has his doubts, or importantly he believes it's a good match but wants to assert his position and gain the respect of his potential son in law the father will do the following.
Firstly he will turn the man from his door, telling him to come back when (whatever...he's bought a decent horse, got a good trailer etc.)
After a few days the man will return if he's serious and ask again. The father will allow him to take her out but she must be in by 10 o'clock, and not a second later. The father will then inform the brothers and cousins what is going on. On the third visit, the man will be expected to meet and impress the male members of the family. This sometimes involves a bare knuckle fight, but only rarely. If the relationship continues the man will ask for the daughters hand in marriage and the father will always refuse.
Finally the man will be expected to go to the father and say 'I've come for your daughter, give her to me or I'll take her, and we will elope!' The elopement is only symbolic, the lass will go to her sisters or a relative and the lovers will NOT spend the night together.
The next day they will go back together to the father. The man will be invited in after removing his shoes and then he will be welcomed into the family, for he has now proved he is serious about his girl. Gypsy women always go to the marriage bed a virgin. There are variations of this ritual but this is the gist of it in England at least.

Modern day Gypsy girls want the usual bling, and revealing clothes that we see everyday in our high street, however unfortunately they are not aware of the message they are sending to the settled people. Namely that they are available when they are not. Should a Gypsy girl break this code she will be shunned by her family. I have seen it happen. This also applies to adultery. Divorce is rare and not accepted. Unfortunately domestic violence is all too rife, and my Wife when she was vice chair of the Gypsy council, attempted to address the attitude of the abused that this was acceptable behaviour, without very much success.
Homosexuality is shunned however a good Romany Gypsy friend of mine now deceased was bisexual, and had a long and happy gay relationship and held a position within the Gypsy council so things are getting a bit better there. I even went out with him to gay clubs, and had some great evenings. He asked me how come a Gorgio heterosexual man felt no problem in being with not only Gypsy Folk but a gay Gypsy man. I told him I would rather deal with, work and spend my leisure time with Gypsy Folk than so called respectable folk, and I was totally secure in my sexuality. Last time I looked you couldn't catch it! He thought this was hilariously funny, and a long friendship ensued. He died of Leukaemia. We ended up making a radio documentary just before he died.

I am happy to carry on with my stories, if it's of interest, and I'm pleased to shed a bit of light on a very close community.
kind regards
Nick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 07:12 PM

Me again Uncle! As a Travelling man would say. Just a quick line of appreciation. The Gypsy council passed a motion some ten years ago that the word Traveller or Gypsy should always be spelled with a capital G or T as a mark of respect. This is in the same way it would be done for French German Italian etc. Jim Carroll you have never missed a letter in your posts. Well done! Were you aware of the motion or is this just you being naturally respectful?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: RTim
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 07:17 PM

AS a slight aside to the discussion....there is a move in some Dance circles - certainly here in the USA - to Stop using the term "Gypsy" to describe the dance movement of Passing your opposite by the shoulder and return (without a turn) to home place...This is Particularly aimed at Nick Dow, or any who have a view...... do you have a view on this..???

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Nov 19 - 07:40 PM

There are a number of occasions when the word is used a verb. There is sometimes talk of going Gypsying. I'm not too keen on it myself. There were some furniture restorers in Surrey who called themselves the 'Junk Gypsies'. Not my cup of tea I'm afraid. However its not as offensive as taking the first three letters and adding a P and O. By the way I'll be in touch soon Tim.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 03:25 AM

"Were you aware of the motion or is this just you being naturally respectful?"
MacColl, Seeger and Parker drummed into me that Travellers should be spelt with capital letters - they picked up the habit in the early 1960s when the were making the Radio Ballads

The division between the different groups of Travellers has always worried me - I'm afraid it cuts both ways Nick
Back in the early 80s Mikeen helped set up 'The London Roadside Travellers Group' in Hackney, along with English Tony (Heron ?) and a Scots family (Townley maybe ?)
The got the support of Ken Livingstone and a solicitor (Norman ?) (Jaysus - I'm losing names like mad nowadays) and after a few years campaigning the Hackney Council agreed to build a site and started to allocate places. Unfortunately they refused to deal with anybody other than officially recognised groups and gave the places to The Gypsy Council, (Hughie Smith) who distributed all the places to English families Travelling in Kent and Essex
The Families didn't really want to stop in London, so they sold the places back to the Irish and Scots Travellers who had campaigned for them in the first place
There was a little bad blood for a time, but Mikeen was never one to hold grudges and he patched things up
Not long after the whole thing exploded anyway when John Major scrapped the Caravan and Camping Act and all the Travellers with no sites fled London in panic - Mikeen ended up in Norfolk and finally Bristol, where he died


We offered our help, where we could, but Mikeen insisted that the only way the group could survive awas to develop their own skills - a very wise man
Pat took the occasional "No Travellers served here" photograph during their campaign to get the practice outlawed andwe occasioanlly helped with filling in official forms
I am firmly convinced that the future of the Travelling Communities is under dire threat and, unless they co-operate with on another, they will be swept out of existence in the not-to-distant future - a massive loss to our society and culture

Our friend, Denis Turner, who worked with us in the early days, was a headmaster at a Shepherd's Bush school when we were began recording in that area
He was once asked by one of our singer friends, "I've got a couple of hours to spare, will you teach me to read ?"
Another Buffer friend of Mikeen's got funding to buy an old London bus and set up a school for Traveller children in the area
In the end, may of the Travellers were taught to read by their children

We have great memories of that period in London - they were incredibly generous and welcoming to us
More later
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:22 AM

A very quick post until time allows later. The Gypsy Council titles were used by Hughie Smith quite correctly, and by Charlie Smith as the Gypsy Council of Great Britain and Ireland. The whole thing ended up in court and Hughie lost. Mally and I retreated from the fallout. I too have horror stories of the John Major days.
I found the older generation sometimes resistant to literacy. Mally offered to teach two young lasses to read so they could pursue their dream of hairdressing shop. Their father refused. He did not want to make them wiser than himself.
More later for sure.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 04:59 AM

I am interested in the claim made by Carroll and Mackenzie to the effect that certain Travellers had an 'innate' knowledge relating to folk song. "We have found what appears to be an innate feeling, an understanding about the songs which has no bearing on intellectual ability or learning"

It reminded me of sentiments like 'Blacks have an innate sense of rhythm'.

As it is important to see that claim in its context, here is a link to the whole lecture.

Claims are also made regarding the 'instinctive' knowledge of Travellers. This quasi-biological stuff is to use a favourite word of Carrolls' 'disturbing'. It would be one thing to assert that there was some cultural knowledge and understanding of the origins of songs; to use language like 'innate' and 'instinctive' seems less appropriate.

http://pipers.ie/source/media/?mediaId=25853

The bit that caught my attention is spoken by Pat Mackenzie about 45 minutes in.

I note in passing that it contains a 'funny' story about domestic abuse. This links to Nick Down's points above. I'm guessing it wasn't an issue high up on the hard left agenda of the folk revivalists.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 07:30 AM

To try and get this baxck on track, this is a talk Pat and I gacve at Limerick Uni World Music Department for an afteroon on Travellers - it was also attended by Tom Munnelly, Sheila Douglas and Timothy Neat, among others
Pat and I used to share these talks and, a we are not trained speakers, found it necessary to script eveything we did
On thiss occassion, we made a bit of a hames of it as some of the speakers over-ran and we, at the end, had to cut out rather a lot of what we had to say
If the mods find these too large for the forum they are going to have to let me know
Jim

Dissemination of songs by Travellers

We’re here today, not exactly under false pretences because we made it quite clear that we couldn’t talk about Scottish influences on Irish Travellers from a personal perspective. We spent over twenty years recording Irish Travellers in and around the London area: their songs, stories and lore, without finding any signs of direct Scottish influence on the singers we met. So we have to confess our knowledge on the subject is somewhat limited and largely confined to what we’ve gathered from elsewhere, rather than from our own fieldwork.
There’s no doubt that there’s been a great influence on the Irish song tradition by the Scottish repertoire, mainly due to the Scots plantation of Ulster. However, the Irish influence on the British song tradition is probably as great. As you know, large numbers of Irish labourers crossed the water in the 19th and early part of the 20th century: there were the tattie howkers from the north of Ireland who went to Scotland to pick potatoes; the navvies, Irish men and women who went to work on building the railways, canals, in the iron foundries and mines and on the land. In 1841, just prior to the famine, over 126,000 people, 4.8% of the total population of Scotland, were Irish born . Fifty years later, at the time of the 1891 census, this figure had risen to nearly 194,000 . Over 70,000 of these were living outside the principal boroughs, and so would be more likely to reside in areas where the oral tradition was at its strongest. In 1993, we attended a conference in Aberdeen at which the late Peter Cook gave a paper on the Irish influence on the music and song traditions of Aberdeenshire. His conclusions were that the Irish navvies who were employed to carry out much of the work in building and expanding the railways in the north-east of Scotland in the nineteenth century, had a profound effect on those traditions.
An excellent analysis of the Scots influence on the Irish repertoire can be found in the joint paper by Hugh Shields and Tom Munnelly, entitled ‘Scots Ballad Influences in Ireland’,   and for examples we would recommend the Leader album of Hugh Shields’s recordings, ‘Folk Ballads from Donegal and Derry’ , and the cassette ‘Early Ballads in Ireland 1968–1985’ , edited by Tom Munnelly and Hugh Shields.
**********************************
It is difficult to see how one would go about separating the influence of Travellers from that of the wider population as so little work seems to have been carried out on the subject, or, if it has, little has been made generally available.
In the joint paper, Tom Munnelly wrote of Travellers from the Republic:

“Many of the families who crossed the border in search of tin, stayed for sev¬eral years and became acquainted with the Travellers who traditionally moved in Ulster. The eventual return of these families would seem to have been an im¬portant factor in the recent dissemination of Ulster Scots songs among the Travellers in the South, though this influence is difficult to quantify while we lack collections from Northern tinkers. The movement of Irish Travellers in Scotland is, similarly, a subject on which it is difficult to find information.”
Incidentally, one of the Travellers we recorded told us it was not only tin, but other goods in short supply. He talked about families of ‘pregnant’ men, women and children crossing the border with scarce cloth wrapped around their waists. One family he knew lived around the border and participated in the practice for seventeen years until, having become very prosperous, they returned to their native Kerry.
In 1980, Hamish Henderson of The School of Scottish Studies, drew attention to the neglect shown towards the Travellers’ role in keeping alive many of the traditional songs and ballads in his article, ‘The Ballad, The Folk and The Tradition’ . He wrote:
   
“The Scots travelling folk had preserved their own "clannit society" into Gavin Greig's day - indeed, they have, to quite a big degree, preserved it into ours - but collectors seldom went among them seeking ballads. Even Greig himself, one of the most energetic and successful collectors of all time, appears practically to have ignored them. And yet their vast ballad repertoire, distinctive singing styles and aptitude for making up their own songs, offer much of interest to the folklorist, not least because many of the older generation of tinker singers are completely or almost completely illiterate.”

In 1965, Hamish and Francis Collinson gave a striking example of the results of such neglect in an article on ballad collecting:

“One single example must speak for many. The late Geordie Robertson, who recorded "Robin Hood and the Peddlar" for the School of Scottish Studies, knew Gavin Greig quite well; he actually played the pipes at one of the productions of Greig's bucolic comedy "Mains's Woo'in". For years he lived on a croft within easy walking distance of Greig's school-house at Whitehills, New Deer. Yet Greig never made any attempt to collect songs from him. The reason was, in all probability, a social one; Greig got the great bulk of his wonderful collection from the farming community, and Geordie Robertson was a tinker - a settled tinker, a crofter and a "made horseman", but still a tinker. In Greig's day this represented a real social barrier and, as the School's collectors have found in the recent past - these social barriers, although much less solid these days, do still form a real stumbling block. It does not pay to let some informants know that one has been consorting socially with tinkers - let alone camping with them, or scrounging peats with them.”

What has been lost through the somewhat shortsighted practice of ignoring Travellers is inestimable; we can only go by what has been saved. For instance, ‘The Maid and the Palmer’, thought to be long lost, was recovered by Tom Munnelly from Roscommon Traveller John Reilly. This can be heard on the Topic album of John’s songs, ‘Bonny Green’ Tree’ . Similarly, as far as we can ascertain, the only recorded examples of ‘Famous Flower of Serving Men’ in Britain and Ireland have all come from Travellers, the only Irish version as far as we know being four verses from Tipperary Traveller, Mary Delaney. Any doubts about the value of the Travellers contribution to traditional balladry should be quickly dispelled by listening to another Roscommon Traveller, Martin McDonagh, with his magnificent rendition of ‘Lady Margaret’, the only sound version of ‘Young Hunting’ to have been recorded from a traditional singer on this side of the Atlantic. This was included on the cassette, ‘Songs of The Irish Travellers’, edited from Tom Munnelly’s collection. In Belfast in 1952, the BBC recorded Kerry singers Christie Purcell and his daughter Lal Smith along with Wexford Travellers Paddy and Mary Doran and Winnie Ryan. Their songs included ‘What Put The Blood (Edward), Our Goodman, and Seven Yellow Gypsies. Further examples of songs from Irish Travellers’ repertoire can be found on the double CD ‘From Puck to Appleby’ , a compilation selected from our recordings made mainly in the Greater London area in the 70s and 80s.
In the twenty-odd years we recorded Irish Travellers, the only piece we got that can be said to have been directly influenced by travelling in Scotland, was this one, which was written by the singer, who spent some time in Glasgow, working as a rag-and-bone man there and making a song about his experience at that trade..

Example 1. Rambling Candy Man – ‘Rich’ Johnny Connors.   1m. 40s.

Perhaps it might be useful if we gave some background information on our own involvement. We were first made aware of the importance of Travellers to the oral tradition through recordings and folk club appearances of Jeannie Robertson, Margaret Barry and the Stewarts of Blair, but it was Ewan MacColl’s ground-breaking series of radio programmes, ‘The Song Carriers’, broadcast in the early 1960s, that drove home their vital role in preserving and disseminating songs and ballads. The Radio Ballad, ‘The Travelling People’, helped put the Travellers’ experiences in the modern world into context.
What we thought we’d do today, rather than sit here telling you what we don’t know, is to try to deal with the Travellers’ role in the passing on of traditional song, both within the Travelling community and also between the Travelling and settled peoples, mainly using our own work with Irish Travellers.
In the summer of 1973, we made our first contact with Irish Travellers on sites in The Greater London area. What we found in the first six weeks was quite astonishing. We discovered a fairly active singing tradition: a number of singers with substantial repertoires and a ready willingness to allow us to record them. Previously, our knowledge of Traditional singers was of people in their mid-sixties and upward, but of the singers we initially met, the most senior was in his early forties and the youngest and most stylish of them was in his mid twenties. Within that relatively short period, we recorded over a hundred songs and had compiled a list of potential contacts who, if they were all to be followed up, would keep us busy for several years.
Most of the singers, certainly those with the largest repertoires, had a very wide range of material, which included native Irish and Anglo-Scots-Irish songs, from the classic Child ballads to made-up songs about travelling life – comic songs, lyrical songs, murder ballads, bawdy songs and, like Scots Travellers but unlike English ones, mostly full versions. One interesting aspect was the number of bawdy songs the Irish Travellers had, also in common with Scots Travellers, which appears not to have been the case with settled Irish singers. Among the oldest we found was The Blind Beggar, a version of the 17th century broadside, ‘The Rarest Ballad That Ever Was Seen of The Blind Beggar of Bednall Green’. The complete ballads we were given included The Outlandish Knight, Edward, Lord Randall, and The Grey Cock. We also got fragments of Famous Flower of Serving Men and Lord Gregory. But these and others, such as There Is An Alehouse, The Three Butchers, Captain Thunderbolt, and Willie Leonard, are all as likely to have turned up anywhere in Britain and Ireland. Some of them can be said to have originated in Scotland, but we’re not aware of any cases where they’ve been got directly by our singers from Scots Travellers, the majority of them having been learned from family members or other Irish Travellers.
So fruitful were our first forays in the field that we were forced to stop after six weeks and work out a more coherent approach to what we were attempting. It was eighteen months before we took up the project again.
Previously it had been possible to carry out several hours of recording, go for a pint, then come back to the site and participate in sessions of singing, yarn swapping, or just conversation. Now, every trailer was equipped with a television set and, although the singers were still around, the opportunity for singing to an attentive audience had diminished radically.
However, after a couple of months with some of the singers we’d recorded previously, we met a man who was to influence our method of approach for the future.
Singer and storyteller Mikeen McCarthy (small Michael) turned out to be a mine of information, and it was from him that we learned a great deal about Travelling life, lore and traditions, particularly about the role that the songs and stories played in the community. He had a prodigious memory, a wonderful eye for detail and a superb ability to relate what he knew. He was more than happy to let us record him and we quickly became close friends. Throughout the thirty years that we knew him, we never lost touch; whenever he moved site he phoned to let us know where he was, and our friendship lasted right up to his death last November. We also got a great deal of information from him on the dissemination of songs, both among Travellers and in the settled community. In all, we recorded over one hundred tapes of him singing, telling stories, or just talking.

Mikeen was born into a Travelling family in Cahersiveen in Kerry in 1931. Both his parents were singers. His father, Michael senior, was a tinsmith, and according to Mikeen, was well-known for his singing and storytelling in his native Kerry and was widely appreciated for this by the settled community as well as by fellow Travellers. He was what Mikeen called a “fireside singer”, not singing for a living but going to houses as he travelled from parish to parish, or around the fire by the caravan, horse-drawn in those days. It was chiefly from him that Mikeen developed a love of singing and storytelling. From March to October the family would travel a regular circuit through Kerry and West Cork. In the winter months they rented a house and, during this time, the children attended school and obtained a rudimentary education; just how rudimentary can be seen from this page of a song he wrote out for us.

Picture of page of Mikeen’s ‘Dingle Puck Goat’.

Mikeeen described to us his father’s relationship with the settled people, ‘Gorgies’ and how they would gather in the evenings to hear the stories:

Example 2. Mikeen talking about ceilidhing round the fire. 1m 27s.

We'd be all tucked into bed but we wouldn't be asleep, we'd be peeping out through keyholes and listening out through the side of the canvas, we'd be stuck everywhere, and he'd know it.
And the fire'd go on. One of the lads 'd come up for the light of a cigarette or something, he'd be already after topping the cigarette, 'twas just an excuse, "Could I have a light out of the fire Mick" they'd say to my father.
Sure, my father'd know, he'd know what he'd be up to of course and he'd say, “‘Tisn't for the light of a fire you came up at all now, 'tisn't for the light of a cigarette you came up for now” and he'd start to laugh.   
And bejay, another feller'd come and he'd say it again, "bejay, before I know where I am there'd be ten of you there".   
And bejay, the word wouldn't be out of his mouth and they would be coming up along, coming up along, and the next thing one feller'd shout to the other, “can’t you go down and bring up a gual of turf”, and before you’d know where you are there’d be a roaring fire, ‘twould band a wheel for you.    Oh, there could be twenty, maybe more, maybe thirty, it depends, maybe there could be more than that again.    There’d be some round the fire in a ring, there might be another twenty standing on the road. There wouldn’t be any traffic at that time on the by-roads in Ireland, d’you know.   They’d be all standing out along the road then.
So ‘tis there you’d hear the stories then and the songs, all night, maybe till one o’clock in the morning.   And the kettle... the tea’d go on then, there’d be a round of tea and....   That’s the way it’d go on.
We were off ceilidhing then, they’d invite him off to a house; he’d always bring one or two of us with him.   Same thing’d go on at the house then, that’s where he learned all those great stories and great songs from, I suppose, ceilidhing from house to house, different counties, different stories, different songs.   

It was obvious from what Mikeen told us, that relations between Travellers and settled people were much closer in his youth than it is today, though this was very much to do with the role of the travellers as tradesmen; also the fact that they tended to stick to one area and therefore became known and recognised in the community. This is part of an interview we did with him about where he would stop at night when they were on foot, in this case, on Valencia Island.

Example 3. Valencia Island. 1m. 28s.

M Mc I used to do the islands with him. We’d go into Valencia Island, me and him and he’d only bring his tools, that’s all, on his back, and I might bring what they call a stake or a hatchet stake (te) and he’d only bring a little amount of tin with him, and then well, he’d go into the one farm house in the middle of the island, you know, and while he’d be there then every night he used be working on the floor of the house.
We might be in the island then maybe, could be there three weeks without coming out, that was on Valencia Island now.
J C        Where would you stop while you were on the island?
M Mc Oh, farmhouses,
J C        You’d stop at the farmhouses?
M Mc Well in them days like, they always had either the feather bed, or a mattress, or maybe straw, they always had them upstairs waiting for a visitor like, in them days. They believed in visitors coming like; well they always had one of them, always there, tick of feathers or something.
J C        You’d be welcome would you?
M Mc Oh jay, what welcome. Then he’d sit inside them when his days work ‘d be done and the neighbours ‘d start coming from far and near then and after the tea then, everyone have a mug of tea or something, around. The storytelling ‘d start then and the songs and the step-dancing. It’d be getting later then; I remember my father used start telling ghost stories and they’d be half afraid to go home then. (Laughter) We go back around there yet; it’s as long back as I remember like; they’d be still asking me about my father back there, you know.

The influence of Travellers on the settled song repertoire was confirmed to us on a number of occasions. North Clare singer, Martin Howley, learned several of his songs from Travellers, including the extremely rare ‘Fair Margaret and Sweet William’, which he got from a woman named Sherlock. Not far away from Martin, the two Flanagan brothers, Michael and Austin, from Luagh, near Doolin, told us that, when Travellers were in the area they would abandon work around the farm and go off just to learn songs from them.
The passing on of songs was quite common between Travellers themselves, though it was considered bad manners to sing another person’s song in their presence. Particularly welcome were visitors from another area because then it was quite likely that they would have new songs to pass on.

Example 4. Learning songs from other Travellers. 46 seconds.

J C.    Where would you hear the song first; you’d find the song from Travellers, or from Gorgies or who?
M Mc. Oh, from Travellers mostly, the Travelling people at that time when they’d wander on they’re all going to ceilhiding.    Well us in Kerry now like, if we met some Galway person coming down along, there wouldn’t be a word said that night in the house, we’d be waiting for the Galway man to sing, or the Galway woman because there’d be a different song, or a different air, and then, before they’d leave like, they’d write out the song and they’d have it; get them to write it out and then you’d be singing because they’d be as anxious for our songs that we would for them like.    But we’d write them songs out then, and next thing, if people liked it, as one man said, whatever you liked yourself you’d get another man to like it. So we’d write them out theirself then and bring them into the printing office and get them re-wrote on ballads.

Mikeen’s comment on getting them “re-wrote on ballads” refers to what was probably the greatest influence that Travellers had on the Irish song tradition. These were the song sheets that were sold, mainly at the fairs and markets, throughout Ireland right up to the 1950s. They were printed on coloured paper and contained the words of one song. The trade was carried on almost exclusively by Travellers.

Picture of ballad sheets.

In the 1940s, Mikeen and his mother, along with other members of the family, sold the ballads in their native Kerry. Mikeen furnished us with a description of how they were produced, taking them to the printer and having an order of them run off. He described how an illustration would be selected, if possible relating to the subject of the song, and, if available, naming an air to which it should be sung. The songs were by no means all traditional; titles he mentioned were ‘Little Grey Home in the West’, ‘Smiling Through’, ‘Hello Patsy Fagin’ and ‘Eileen McMahon’, as well as ‘Rocks of Bawn’, ‘Sailor’s Life’, ‘Betsy of Ballentown Brae’, ‘The Blind Beggar’ and ‘Willie Reilly and his Colleen Bawn’.
Mikeen’s father did not participate in the trade but a number of his songs appeared on the sheets, often at the request of people who knew his father as a singer. Mikeen described to us at great length the process of selling them.

Example 5. Ballad selling. 2m. 54s.

J C.       Where did you sell mainly, where did you sell your songs?
M Mc.    Fair days now, inside the pubs.
J C.       In Kerry, or would you travel out as well?
M Mc. Oh, I’d travel away too, Kerry, Clare, all over, wherever there’d be fairs, anywhere you’d go when the fellers’d be half steamed in the pubs, ‘tis then they’d start buying them.   
J C.      You say your mother would sell them as well?
M Mc   Well she’d never hardly sell the songs that she wouldn’t know, because she couldn’t read, you see. But she’d sell the songs she used to know.
J C    How would she get them written out, would she get somebody who could write to do it?
M Mc   Yeah, the printing office we used to go to now, he knew us that well he’d have them all ready wrote out, so she’d want a gross of those songs, that’s twelve dozen, twelve dozen of the next songs he knew her well like; “now Jane, I’ve The Wild Colonial Boy”, for instance or “The Blind Beggar”, we’ll say, all those songs, “I’ve all those in print now”.   They’d all be laid out on the counter then in all different colours, there’d be kind of pink, orange colour, yellow, and white, all that, you know, and they’d be all in bundles like. Well you’d pick and chose them, whichever one you want, about threepence a dozen I think that time, fourpence more times.
J C    How many would you sell of each song, what would be a good sale?
M Mc   Well, ‘twould be a long day’s selling like, and if it would be a big fair, if I sold say two or three dozen of each song, you should sell at least a gross anyway, like, twelve dozen.
You’d go into a pub, only you’d have the ballads in your hand, just walk over to the group and you’d say, “would you like to buy some songs, some ballads”.    They’d start looking at them then.    Well they’d take them all away, they’d start reading them all then and picking them out and they’d ask you then, “could you sing that one for us, could we know the air of it”.    “Yeah”, I’d say; I’d sing it then. They’d buy me a bottle of lemonade or something and I’d sit down and I’d sing it and then I often had to sing it maybe two or three times ‘cause there’d be some girl maybe or some boy interested in it.    Then they’d want to get into the air of it like.
J C.         So you did in fact teach them the air.
M Mc.   Yeah, you’d have to teach them the air and they’d have to go over the ballad then again and maybe I’d have to sing it again with them, you know, but they wouldn’t want your time for nothing, oh, they’d pay you very well, whatever you’d want to eat, or something like that, inside in the pub.   ‘Tis like the records now, it reminds me of the same thing Jim. You’d get a hit ballad, so I’d get that in print straight away then. But ‘twould just travel through our parish or through a town, from one town to another, and fair to another and you’d get the new ballad come out and you’d sell twenty times as much of that ballad as you would of the rest of them, when they come out new like.   The Blind Beggar sold very well now, that one. All those songs now, The Wild Colonian Boy; several songs like that now.
J C.    What would you say was the oldest song that went onto a ballad that you know?
M Mc.   Oh, The Blind Beggar, I’d say, I’d say that was the oldest.

It seems obvious that Travellers have always played a vital role in the dissemination of songs and stories throughout these islands and, for a period up to the 1950s, the selling of ballad sheets was of primary importance in Ireland. Some of the older inhabitants of Miltown Malbay, where we live, remember Bully Nevin, selling the sheets in Miltown on fair days.
We’ll finish with Mikeen describing one of his more lucrative fair days in Listowel in the 1940s.

Listowel Fair. 1m. 9s.

But I remember one day I was in Listowel Fair and I was selling ballads anyway. So I goes into a pub, I was fifteen years of age then.   
Actually, I never wanted to pack it up, it was ashamed of the ladies I got, you know.   
But there was an American inside anyway, he wasn't back to Ireland I'd say for thirty years or something, he was saying.   So I sang that song now, The Blind Beggar, and he asked me to sing it again, and every time I sang it he stuck a pound note into my top pocket.
He said, “will you sing again?”
So Jay, the pub was full all round like, what we call a nook (te) now that time, a small bar, a private little bar off from the rest of the pub.   
And, “will you sing it again”?   
“I will, delighted” again, of course, another pound into my top pocket every time anyway. And the crowd of us was around of course and they were all throwing in two bobs apiece and a shilling apiece and I'd this pocket packed with silver money as well. So he asked me, “will you sing it for the last time”.   
Says I, “I'll keep singing it till morning if you want”. (laughter )   
I'd six single pound notes in it when I came outside of the pub. I think I sold the rest of the ballads for half nothing to get away to the pictures.

Notes
1      The Irish in Scotland 1798 – 1845; James E Handley; Cork University Press. (1943).
2       The Irish In Britain; from The Earliest Times to the Fall and Death of Parnell; John Denvir; Kegan Paul, Trench Trubner   
       and Co. (1894)
3    ‘Scots Ballad Influences in Ireland’, Ceol Tíre No. 15 – (newsletter of the Folk Music Society of Ireland); (1979)
4      Leader Records, LEA 4055 (1972).
5      European Ethnic Oral Traditions, (1985).
6      The People’s Past’, ed. Edward J Cowan, pub. Polygon Books for Edinburgh University Students Publication Board (1980)..
7      Hamish Henderson & Francis Collinson, New Child Ballad Variants From Oral Tradition. Scottish Studies. Vol.9, No. 1.
8      The Bonny Green Tree – Songs of an Irish Traveller. Topic Records 12T359, (1978).                                                         
9      Songs of The Irish Travellers 1967 – 1974. Rec.by Tom Munnelly. European Ethnic Oral Traditions (1983).
10    From Puck To Appleby – Songs of Irish Travellers in Britain. Rec. by Jim Carroll & Pat Mackenzie. Musical Traditions MTCD325-6 (2003)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 09:15 AM

Excellent Jim.
So back on track then- I collected about 50 songs from the Blackpool Gypsies and most of them were of Irish origin. There were a few howlers Lord Bateman became Lord Basement, and songs were confused. However I was quite surprised how many were not in the repertoires of other Gypsy Folk. Jolly Red Herrings for one and also the Three Huntsman. I'll be honest Jim I never had the nerve to sing the last verse of that one, even though it was sung by two women on the recording...

(They walked along a bit further and nothing they did find
Until they came to a Gramaphone and that they left behind
The Englishman said it's a Gramaphone the Scotsman he said Nay!
Poor Paddy said it's a talking machine and I married one yesterday.
Tome whack fol doodle day &co.)

How much the singers were influenced by commercial recordings I can only guess. Mary Lee sang the 'Butcher Boy' learned from her father via her sisters, however this would have been round and about the time Tommy Makem sang it with the Clancys. I've tended to give her the benefit of the doubt. Difficult isn't it?

I have two versions of the Gaberlunzie Man one with a weird chorus

(To me raddley adair touch her if you dare whack fol the diddle I-do)

There are a number of established Gypsy Songs like Thorneymoor Woods (confused) and 'Sweet Swansea' with the same tune as Emma Vickers, and fragments of big ballads like the Unquiet Grave, and The Wraggle Taggle Gypsies.

I would not describe any of the songs as a major contribution to our knowledge of Gypsy Folk Songs, but I am glad I have the recordings.
Nick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 09:41 AM

Sounds fascinating Nick - love to hear some of them
Tom Munnellyy recorded John Reilly singing 'Lord Gregory' - only he called it 'Lord Googley' - that sort of thing was always happening

I tend to think that the Irish and Scots Traveller repertoire survived better than the English one - Mike Yates once suggested it did when reviewed out 'From Puck to Appleby'
He made the point that most of our songs were full versions

MacColl was criticised for discussing what he believed was the breakdown in style in 'The Song Carriers' - I'm not sure I'd have done it but I don't think he said anything that wasn't true
At least he had the tact not to name the Traveller, but unfortunately his critics did so at a later date and said they laughed at the singing when they heard it - that was not Ewan's intention; it was an honest attempt to analyse what had happened to the style

I have set up a PCloud file in order to distribute some of our archive to those who would lke to use it - it has a considerable Traveller folder (Irish and Scots so far)
If you, or anybody would like to access it, you are welcome - you'll have to let me have an e-amil address though
Thanks again for your input to all this
I have more to say, but I'll leave it to later
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 10:07 AM

I know the very recording you mean. I must admit McColl had a point but I think he was a bit harsh. The use of portamento was still audible to me, and that is part of some Gypsy's style of singing.
Mike Yates pointed out a real howler to me, when McColl pointed out that a singer was uttering 'The Merrier Gods' in a carol, when in fact he was singing the Merry Organ. Still the Song Carriers are unsurpassed in my view. I'll work out a way of getting these recordings to you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 10:58 AM

'The Merrier Gods'
I agree - I think we can safely say that religious songs weren't actually Ewan's forte
There a a few other thinks I would take him up on, but considering the scope of the ten programmes, I thing a few errors aren't too bad
I never hesitate to recommend the series to anybody looking for songs or ideas


As far as his criticism of the singer (I now know who it is, though I didn't back then) I think people need to remember tat Ewan's main objective in tthose days was to evncourage singers to find their own voices and styles rather than copy what they heard
It disturbs me to here potentially good singers picking up poor singing stles because they consider them 'traditional'
People used to try to sound like Jeannie, not knowing that she sang at the speed she sang because people like Lomax praised her for her 'slow, dignified singing' - the bacame slower and slower, which, for me, was a shame
I think I'm right in saying that she was also an asthmatic
WE had a young feller in our Manchester workshop, a fine singer, who desperately tried to sound like Harry Cox - ludicrous
People are taking blind Travelling woman, Mary Delaney's speed of singing as a guide when she also was a chronic asthmatic - last time we saw her she was breathing from a cylinder

Regarding our swapping recordings - I'm reluctant to put my e-mail address up considering the lurking trolls but a number of people have it and I'd be glad for them to pass it on if they know you
Joe Offer has passed it on in the past
If I link you to my PCloud you can drop it in there (I think)
Best
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 11:40 AM

That all sounds technical. I'd better ask my Grandson!!
I always thought Phoebe Smith sang a bit slow. I once listened to a young man at a festival do a quite accurate and very silly impression of Pop Maynard, so I know what you mean. I could drop a line to Rod Stradling would he have your details?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 11:49 AM

Rod certainly has it and should be happy to pass it on - when you get it just send me an e-mail and then we're permanently linked
You will find a fair mount of stuff already in the box and I'm now in the process of tidying it up and adding to it
Help yourself to anything you want and if you are looking for anything specific, don't hesitate to ask - we have a frightening amount of material to pass on
Let me know if you have a problem
PCloud is a doddle and well worth considering
You can actually acquire free space on line, but nowhere enough for my requirements
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 01:49 PM

Anent Nick's description of courtship customs (12 Nov 19 - 06:55 PM), which I assume is about English Romanies: how does this go with Scottish Travellers, whose history is entirely different?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 03:02 PM

Accorsding to some Irish Travellers, they were told that the couple used to piss in the same bucket and swirl it around to get married
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 03:33 PM

The Shirley Collins-compiled 'I'm a Romany Rai' CD on Topic is not only a gorgeous collection of gypsy songs and singers; the sleeve notes are also very informative and illuminating.

On top of that, Shirley has previously delivered a beautiful, tender, fascinating lecture by the same title, on the travelling singers of England's southern counties - but I don't think it's been performed since 2014. I organised a performance of it at Islington Assembly Hall in October 2013 (alongside performances by C Joynes and Stephanie Hladowski), but sadly didn't capture it, and I can't find any other recordings online.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 03:59 PM

Marvellous stuff, Jim and Nick. Please keep it coming. Nick I'll email you Jim's email in a minute.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 19 - 08:03 PM

THanks for that Steve
I'll sort things out in the morning Nick
PLeae don't forget that my offer applies to all interested
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 05:29 AM

Thank you very much for the link Jim. I'll get on to it when I can.

I was gobsmacked that the mixing waters ritual still exists in Scotland. It died out in England nearly a century ago. Well before waggon days.
That said a part if the ritual was revived for my Grandaughters wedding, with my wife acting as Rani (Wise woman). We drew the line at mixing waters though. So here goes as I have been told.....

This is a marriage ritual not courtship. In the old days there would be two Rani's, one for the union one against. A bit like a kangaroo court.
The prosecution would say something like 'It's a bad match! He has no money and no horses and his wagon is a wreck-She will make no good wife, she is not fertile her mother only had three children, and she is not as clean as she should be. She's a 'Slough' (Pronounced Sluff. A dirty Gypsy who does not follow the clean bowl dirty bowl rules)
The defence (a second Rani) will contradict, and say 'My sister is wrong to 'shan' them (Shan= demean, and generally take to task)
'She is a fine daughter and will make a fine wife. He has plenty of gold and will look after her!' etc.etc.

This of course is all for show, because the union has been approved months ago. Then the two family members will vote (however the outcome is a foregone conclusion) The marriage will be approved and then the following will happen. (No don't get worried! That Happens many miles away!)

The couple will bind their hands, (in my Grandaughter's case they also said their vows. My wife the Rani, stood under an arch of wild flowers) then the mixing of waters takes place (many years ago in England, not at our family wedding) and then maybe a song is sung (I sang a version of the Wedding Song) and then they jump the brush.
We all shouted Jump! Jump! (and unfortunately the Vicar who had done the legal stuff that morning left in disgust at this point) Then the fun begins as at any other wedding.

Decades ago as waters were mixed the Rani said something along the lines of Those who God has joined let no man tear asunder, however I am not sure there was any Christian element to this ritual at all.

Please do me a favour and take absolutely no notice of 'My great big Gypsy NOTHING' on T.V.
Gypsy Folk tend to opt for a standard Church Wedding nowadays, and despite what you might have heard behave reasonably well, until the obligatory fight breaks out. It's a sort of foregone conclusion and
is a carry on from the courtship ritual I quoted above.
'A few of us got into it!' said my best friend sporting an award winning black eye.

I hope this has been interesting for you.
kind regards
Nick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 06:59 AM

Nick
I'm still in the process of re-organising PCloud - by the time you get round to it it should be in better shape - I'll send a breakdown of what' in it later

"Mxing of the Waters"
We were told about this by Travellers who looked on it with a little amusement - the Irish are very much uncritical Catholics
WE wre alwased amused to hear tales of 'Father Daly' the Southern English Traveller delegated priest - very respected, except when he came around handing out 'the pleges' - then the sites would empty withing minutes
Irish Travellers were very restive towards non-marital sex
We tunred up one night at Mary Dealaney's van to find her two daugters and a Traveler youth
One of the daughters took us to find Mary and when we did she immediately said "You haven't left those two alone, have you?"
We'd taken away the chaperone
The 'made matches' (formally arranged marriages) were fairly common and the subject of several songs
None of them were 'forced' as far as we knew, jut properly set up
We attended dozens of weddings and christenings and far too many funerals - Pat took some of her best photographs at them

I detest those Big Fat Gypsy Bigotry pgorammes which I love to coare with the Micky Mouse Come Dancing costumes and compulsory funny gear (particularly hats) at Royal Weddings   

We are always being told that "Travellers today aren't the same as the old crown" but in fact, what has happened is that moving into the towns has led a numberr of Traveller youngsters to take up some of the worst of Urban habits (drugs particularly) and what we now see are mirror images of Town habits
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 07:23 AM

Sorry about the 'spelcheck' typos
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 08:23 AM

Sorry that was me.
Next year at Dr Ian Russell's singers festival in Aberdeen, there will be a Scots Traveller demonstrating how to build a ridge tent, and I will be taking 8 pupils per day and teaching the basics of Gypsy Waggon painting. I'll also be singing, and Glory be I can leave the guitar at home, and sing all unaccompanied a rare treat for me.
I think places are limited so hence the heads up. It's 24th to 26th of July 2020.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 11:00 AM

Well, this post is not initially about their 'contribution to folk song' but I feel that the current importance of it means that it has a relevance....

I knew that at sometime during the current election campaign that the Tories would bring up the 'gypsy menace problem' which they see as a vote winner with 'middle England' and sure enough it has happened. Our wonderful Home Secretary Pritti Patel has promised legislation to crack down on unauthorised Traveller camps, including by making trespass a criminal offence. You can read about this in the column in yesterday's The Guardian by George Monbiot by clicking here.

To their great credit, the police have shown strong opposition to this proposed change in the law as an article in today's edition shows. You can read this by clicking here

My own contact with travellers has been two-fold, professionally and through my love of traditional song and music. As a head of a special school, I came into contact with traveller families reasonably often. Once I had gained their confidence by stating that I would investigate any claim of unfair treatment or discrimination by staff or pupils - and by acting on this, I could usually develop a relationship with them. There were times when things were edgy and they were sometimes unwilling to recognise that their offspring had been in the wrong, but generally we got over it and no Traveller child was ever withdrawn in my time. There were some hairy times, like when a dad phoned to say that his house had been fire bombed by a family he was in dispute with and could his son be kept at school until he managed to sort things out. Rather a long time after going home time, I was able to drive him another house and the location was to be kept secret. As with most people, I found that if you put yourself out for them, they would reciprocate.

Through folk song, I been in the houses of quite a number of mainly Scots travellers and welcomed them into my home in the years when I was organising folk club bookings for the likes of Lizzie Higgins. The Stewarts of Blair, Stanley Robertson and Jane Turriff. I know that my life has been enriched by all the Travellers I have named and quite a few others.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 05:35 PM

A bit controversial I am afraid is the mess that Peter Kennedy left behind him. This has affected the travellers attitude to singing their songs not only to collectors but I am afraid to each other.

While collecting in Dorset, I was on the permanent site in Piddletrentide. I met the Price Family who travelled with Peter Ingram, and latterly Carrie Warren, Caroline Hughes daughter.
In a nutshell when asked to sing, the family said that they did not need to, and produced Peter Kennedy's tape of Caroline which they duly played.
When asked to sing other songs they knew, Carrie said the would need to be paid so much per song, because they were not going to be made a fool of again. Sheep Crook and Black dog had been recorded by Steeleye Span, and they saw that somebody was making a fortune out of their old songs.
These are our memories I was told. I know all the arguments, and I personally had to follow my heart. I had no money to pay as a newly married 29 year old with 5 stepchildren. However at least I managed to give one of my informants enough money to pay his poll tax, even if I didn't pay my own. The morality and responsibility of the role of collector has never sat easy with me, and I still have no answers today. Danny Price (on the camp) put the other view to me. If you take a song and make 10 thousand pounds good luck to you. Talk about being chucked in at the deep end.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 06:29 AM

Around half a million Gypsies ended up in teh extermination camps on teh basis os racist inferiority - often forgotten
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 09:30 AM

Too often!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 09:57 AM

And often by descendants of other victims who have not allowed their deaths to be commemorated alongside their dead relatives - ostracised even in death
A sore point with me, I'm afraid Nick
Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 10:08 AM

..and me as well. For what it is worth we did attend a multi cultural multi faith memorial service to the victims of the Holocaust. My wife made a short speech, and my best friend (a Lee) wrote out a short prayer as best as he could in Romany, and posted it on the prayer board. Funny, the press were not there!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travellers contribution to folk song
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 03:02 PM

Will be back tomorrow to re-post my Kennedy sagas
Haven't got the energy and John Wayne beckons alluringly
Jim