Musical ethnic heritage identification

Subject: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: CupOfTea
Date: 25 Nov 19 - 11:54 PM

I got walloped in the face again with my not having enough Irish in my Irish-American. I've had versions of this for years, and usually deal with it better, but I was at a concert Friday that put this into high contrast.
My taste in music only runs to part of my actual ethnic makeup: I'm unfond of most German music, my mother's side, and have always had a stronger attraction to the Irish, Scottish and the English - father's side, and what was common in the house I grew up in, and schooled in a very Irish Catholic parish gradeschool.

So there I am, Friday night, having pulled myself away from delighting in British traditional songs from the Noel Sing We Clear songbook, (many of which I've been loving for years) and head out to the Irish American club to meet up with one of my session-organizing friends who plays fiddle. I did not know the show was going to be absolutely nothing but Irish rebel songs, and lots of background of the horrible things associated with them. I'm all for singing along, but NOT "Come out ye Black & Tans" and others that keep fresh the wounds of British involvement in Ireland. I gave a respectful listen to it all, and enjoyed the musicianship and humor. Most of the audience talked among themselves and disrespected the performers most of the time (guy in the first row of tables watching a sports event during the show, with volume on). But they're of the club, so that's ok?

Intermission, chatting with folks "what do you play?" Do I edit out that one of my joys besides Irish tunes, is English Country Dance music?

I don't directly relate to the struggle for Irish independence, nor do I ignore the many ways in which the British empire has been an oppressor. Having the music exclusively attached to politics makes no sense for me.

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: CupOfTea
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 12:04 AM

welp, that above posted before proofing and finishing...

I recall my delight in Kipling being dismissed out of hand with "he was a fascist" It makes me wonder what on earth I'd have to be apologizing to the personal critics for if I delved into the German music, too? I love various parts of my heritage. I love the music and the songs of both England AND Ireland, and I don't think I'm that odd in having both as intense interests, and learning about the music started with a pan-Celtic sort of view: Irish, Scottish, English, Breton & all the American cousins.

I don't believe most musicians are that judgmental - but there are enough to make me uncomfortable from time to time. I'd be interested in hearing if there are others who tread this musical border with caution.

Joanne in Cleveland.

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 12:43 AM

I would avoid these people like the plague. identity politics gone off the rails.sadly, it is not rare point of view.

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 05:32 AM

Is that kind of stuff still rolling on in the US like it was generations ago? I get the feeling there's less of it in the British Isles than there used to be, but I haven't deliberately put myself in the sort of places where it might happen lately.

In Scotland, the Scottish Government's law against sectarian displays at football matches put a dent in it.

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 09:09 AM

I think it's about context, personally.

Songs glorifying war and politics (and sex and violence) are part of every heritage, like it or not. I object when these songs are mindlessly presented as entertainment without any awareness or explanation. Hopefully we have grown and matured to a time when the behavior in the songs is no longer appropriate, but singing or hearing them in context reminds us of our passionate human journey. Ideally, we listen and consider the experience of our ancestors and constructively compare with our own.

My own choices as a singer and performer include songs which create and awareness of the historic event or situation but incorporate a reflective viewpoint.

Julia

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 09:40 AM

If you enjoy singing classical music the identity crisis comes from the fact that a lot of the music is Christian. Personally I am atheist. Worse than that, are all the Requiems. I realise that I'm definitely a Protestant Atheist.
But we only have to sing it, not believe it.
When younger I used to enjoy Irish Set Dancing, but the Irish club we went to, while not turning us away, is very Irish and Catholic. (In England)

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 10:08 AM

I've had a couple of odd experiences in Hungary. Saw one guy at a tanchaz (Hungarian ceilidh) wearing a "Flogging Molly" t-shirt. I figured, molly dancing is English, that has to be an English dance band I haven't heard of, right? and asked him if he was an English music fan. He was mortified. Seems they are an ultra-Irish band with a racist anti-English fan base (whether they themselves want such fans or not).

The other one was when somebody came up to me at an instrumental music workshop and asked out of nowhere, "do the Scots hate the English?". I said no we didn't, though most of us are not fond of the English government. That wasn't good enough for him and he found it an incomprehensible response. OF COURSE we had to hate them, didn't we?

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 10:36 AM

While much of classical music IS rooted in christianity, the vast majority of it is secular.
I hate the whole concept of "ethnically" weaponizing music. It is pure bigotry delivered as virtue, not an uncommon practise These views are both ignorant and dangerous.

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 10:58 AM

Nice thing about klezmer is that nobody asks if you're Jewish when you play it. Or what your politics are.

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 12:13 PM

I grew up listening to and being around people who played Klezmer, only about half were Jewish, no one really cared. Unfortunately , I I know and have experienced the fact that this is no longer true in some quarters.

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 12:44 PM

I'm with you 100%, CupofTea. I don't play or support music which promotes ethnic divisionism.

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 12:45 PM

I'm quarter Jew, so should be ok to get away with playing at least the first verse and chorus
of a klezmer song...???

Though, if my mum didn't have dementia and could remember the words and tune,
and if my sister wasn't dead,
we could maybe together perform an entire Klezmer song,
as we'd total one whole complete Jew between us...

.. errrmmm.. maybe...???

..identity politics.. eh..??? what a palaver...

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 02:15 PM

Sorry to throw a spanner among the works, but many of these songs are part of our history and tell of events that history books missed. Many of the Irish rebel songs were very much part of being oppressed by an oppressive regime. And the events they tell of are not too far in the past and are very likely to resurface if the Brexiteers have their way.
The songs are not just about 'glorifying' (those are usually the English ones), they are about resistance to oppression.

IMO, COT, the most appalling part of your Op is the disrespect and indifference shown by the audience, and I'm glad to see it did not include your response.

I'm very English BTW and definitely not Irish.
What about about ethnic oppression, Leeneia?

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 02:38 PM

If you have access to back issues of Come For To Sing magazine, there is a very interesting interview with Peter Bellamy talking about Kipling. Some dismissiveness seems to come when some individuals judge old songs with modern attitudes. When introducing a ballad, like The Cruel Brother, I often say something like the actions in the song are not approved of by the singer. Or, if everyone behaved in a rational fashion, there would be no great works of literature. A gross over generalization but I try to not make a song introduction sound like a class lecture.

Subject: RE: Musical ethnic heritage identification
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 19 - 09:23 PM

Nine years ago I commented in this thread about "One Sunday Morning".

I use the song only to make a point... I doubt I have sung it for anyone in 20 years.

I have very few Irish roots, and a few more Scottish ones... none recent. My family were English and Welsh. I used to know an Armstrong who made a big thing about ethnic/cultural divisiveness, so I learned early on to avoid singing or debating touchy topics.
I gather that in certain areas & groups it is hard to remain neutral...