Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?

Subject: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: meself
Date: 27 Dec 19 - 11:57 AM

It's one of those cliches from old songs that I wonder about at times - you know, "I am a jolly raftsman", "No mortal on earth is as happy as we", "a ploughboy is as happy as a king", etc., etc. Often, though not always, the male speaker seems to be directing this boast toward eligible females, real or imagined. Apparently, being happy was seen as a trait of particular appeal to women, as least for poetic purposes; it seems to be advertised more often than any other aspect of character, other than, perhaps, faithfulness and devotion in love songs. However, somewhere in the early- to mid-twentieth century, this cliche dropped out of circulation - Wilf Carter wrote and sang (pre-WWII, I believe) "We're a jolly bunch of cowboys" but that may be one of the last significant usages.

Thoughts?

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: meself
Date: 27 Dec 19 - 01:32 PM

Of course - thinking about it a little more - 'honesty' is a character trait often mentioned - e.g., "I am an honest chartered accountant, I come from London town" - and happiness, in this sense (i.e., cheerfulness), is a personality rather than character trait ....

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: meself
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 01:35 PM

I'm going to send this to the top of the slide to see if anything happens on the way down this time ....

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: GUEST,MD
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 02:12 PM

Why do you assume the protagonist is heterosexual?

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: meself
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 02:40 PM

Because I'm funny that way.

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 07:06 PM

"Why do you assume the protagonist is heterosexual? "
I think that somebody needs to read up on pre 1967 social history

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Dec 19 - 08:08 PM

Dear Mr. "m" ,
Within our human condition,
I have witnessed and experienced....

The distinct difference between:
happiness

and

JOY ,

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


One is transitory and quickly fleeting....the other is eternal and evolves even greater throughout the years.

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 09:56 AM

Songs are written by songwriters who often like to portray happiness rather than reality of being a ploughboy or a beggar or a raftsman, who rarely write songs (unless your name is Burns and you're making a living out of it having given up ploughing for something more lucrative).
Happy New Year, m!

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: meself
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 11:00 AM

Yes, speaking of happy - and back to you!

Anyway, that's reasonable - but what I'm wondering about is the idea of 'happiness' or cheerfulness, presumably, being presented as a conventional feature of attractiveness, and then its disappearance as such. At least by the post-WWI era, that seems to disappear from both 'popular' and 'folk' song in whatever form. If I'm wrong on that, I'm willing to stand corrected .....

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 11:14 AM

I have been looking in the online Oxford English Dictionary. So many ideas I'm not sure where to start.

The dictionary gives five main groups of meanings: 1) senses relating to cheerfulness and high spirits 2) senses relating to bravery and, hence, over confidence 3)senses relating to passion 4) senses relating to fine appearances 5) senses relating to admiration as in jolly good fellow

One meaning of the word was 'drunken'. That might account for some of its uses in folk songs (especially if you imagine them being sung in that state of intoxification).

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 11:20 AM

Interesting concept and to verify your claim it would take a very time-consuming study of many songs over a long period. However, I'll hazard a guess that 'happiness/cheerfulness' are presented in a myriad of ways in popular culture and that their use in popular song (taking into account the changes in idiom over long periods) would not be any different from one century to another, but you could always prove me wrong by conducting a study.

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: meself
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 11:52 AM

I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong - I'm just thinking about something I've observed, and trying to elicit others' thoughts and observations. Advising me to conduct a study really does seem like a high-falutin' way of telling me to go have carnal relations with myself ....

GuestPseud: that's interesting re: drunkenness. Apparently, at one time 'jolly' was a euphemism for, um, 'amorousness'; whether that persisted widely into the 19th century, I don't know.

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 12:14 PM

Sorry, m. It was just meant as a tongue in cheek sign-off. Perhaps I should have added a :). No way was I trying to interfere with your other hobbies :). My reference to 'changes in idiom' is perhaps significant.

Another angle is to look at the likely writers of songs that included 'jolly/merry/happy' in their titles, people scraping out a living in the metropolis writing unrealistic songs about the lives of people they had little concept of.

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: meself
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 12:26 PM

No harm done - and I agree re: 'changes in idiom'. On the other angle -it IS an angle, but the jolly, etc., bit seems to have been taken up with relish - or just plain - by the working men from whom so many of the pertinent songs have been collected. And referencing my early example, Wilf Carter had paid his dues working as a ranch-hand before he made the claim that "We're a jolly bunch of cowboys". But, of course, by that time he was using a cliche that scanned ....

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 12:43 PM

I call nonsense on *any* emotion being eternal. They last as long as you feel them.

In fact I can't think of anything real being eternal. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: meself
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 01:32 PM

That, I assume, being in response to gargoyle's post ...?

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: meself
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 02:33 PM

Don't worry; after this last slide, I'll let this one disappear off the edge.

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 03:05 PM

In my experience with
lyrics or figures of speech about indulging in strong drink,

"merry" is the one I associate with drunkennness, for some reason.

Subject: RE: Folklore: How Jolly/Merry/Happy are we! Why?
From: meself
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:12 PM

Yes, "feeling merry" is often associated with strong drink.