Needed? Song history FAQ ?

Subject: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 01:21 PM

There are a few lyrics and tunes whose history has come up multiple times in the forum over the past few years. Should the Mudcat devise a "Song history FAQ" to post historical data about those songs whose history has come up more than once or twice ? Or is it better just to go on as we are ?

I'd be interested in knowing folks' thoughts on this.

T.

Subject: Song history FAQ ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 02:02 PM

Hi, T - Well, Dick and Susan have been including some background information with new songs added to the database, but not on a consistent basis. I've been using my "edit" button" and changing the "subject" titles of messages to include keywords or song titles that will make them turn up in a search.
It's my opinion that the next logical step would be to start reviewing the Digital Tradition, song by song, and see what information we can add about each song. That might be a good time to add tunes and corrections and Laws/Child/DT numbers. The database has a vast treasury of lyrics, but it would be great to have more background information on songs.
I'll send a link to this thread to Dick and ask him to stop over as give his ideas. In an attempt to stop multiple threads on the same song, Max has added a number of features to the "create a new thread" page, but I think a lot of people get confused and just ignore all that and start a new thread anyhow.
If you're posting a song or information about a song, it's always a good idea to make sure the "subject" line of your message has a title that is likely to turn up if somebody is searching for that song. Something like ADD: Hole in the Bottom of the Sea or Info: Back in the Saddle Again should do the trick.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: Okiemockbird
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 03:06 PM

Joe, a comprehensive review of the DT would serve to short-circuit certain copyright-related difficulties as well as providing an opportunity to add often-inquired-after information about the history of the various lyrics. As you point out, though, historical information on lyrics is only half the story.

There don't seem to be "DT numbers" yet, though such a system might have advantages. But any filing system that might be devised would have to allow a way for new titles to be inserted.

Besides your idea of adding Child numbers to DT lyrics where appropriate, another good idea might be to create a cross-reference index by Child number for lyrics that are versions of Child ballads (i.e. click on "#200" and get a menu of links to the DT's versions of Johnie Faa/Wraggle Taggle Gypsies ).

T.

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From:
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 03:17 PM

uhmmm - as far I know Dick already has that implemented, doesn't he?

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 04:06 PM

Hi, T - Dick and Susan have done a good job of including Child, Laws, and other identifying numbers - that's a daunting task, and they have missed a few. There are a few other songs not indexed by the other, more standard numbers. When we have more than one version of a song like that, Dick and Susan give it a DT identification number, so all versions of a song will come up in a search for that number. Try a search for DT (or click here), and you'll see what I mean.
They've also set categories for songs, identified by the @ symbol. A search for @german will give you this: (click).
I think we could develop some good information to supplement the database, either by doing a systematic review of the database, or just asking individual Mudcatters to start threads to explore the particular songs that are their favorites. Another possibilty would be to explore a particular artist's recordings or a particular CD. We could have a lot of fun with the recordings of Golden Ring or Finest Kind, and we did something like that with the CD's that Rick Fielding and Art Thieme and Dan Milner put out.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: MMario
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 04:17 PM

Max has toyed with the idea of adding to the MudCat a monthly "magazine" type feature. With cooperation and collaberation something of this sort could become a monthly column, with the results archived. The thread on "The Fox" sticks out in my mind as a good leaping off point for an informational article.

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: Okiemockbird
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 04:41 PM

Ah, I thought you were proposing a serial number itentification system for ALL the lyrics. I was aware of the keyword mechanim, but not of the DT numbers, so thanks for the tip off! In exploring the search mechanism I also found the capability the anonymous poster was referring to, so I thank that individual also.

How come, when I power-search under "#200" I get a link to a file containing "Wraggle-taggle gypsies" with the notation "Child #200", but when I search under "W" I get a file which doesn't identify the lyric as a version of Child #200?

Does the thread-creation mechanism have a prefix for "Info add:" or "Sleevenote:" for mutcatters use when posting new or corrected history or cross-reference information about a lyric in the DT? (I haven't seen one, but maybe I've missed it, or misinterpreted one.)

T.

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 05:15 PM

Very good idea. Sort of a bit like Pete Frame's "Rock Family Trees" but different.

Now there's another thought. A "Family trees" project showning which musiciands went through say Steeleye Span, Fariport Convention, and the Albion, and where they were before and after. Other candidates include the Young Tradition, Mr Fox, the Sallyangie, etc.

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 05:41 PM

Hi, T - the thread-creation mechanism that puts tags at the beginning of thread titles just puts in a standardized selection of labels to save typing and add a little uniformity. You don't have to use them, or you can begin a thread with any sort of label you like.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: Okiemockbird
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 07:09 PM

Joe--Of course, but it's like the difference between being on the ballot and being a write-in candidate.

Also, if we want to do a systematic addition of digital sleeve notes to the DT through posts to the forum, it would be reasonable for those who plan to contribute such information to agree on the sytematic use of a set of prefixes.

T.

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 07:59 PM

I think that some general Mudcat FAQ would be helpful - or maybe something structured more like a welcome page - this could welcome newcomers, and advise them in a friendly fashion about about various aspects of Mudiquette, such as consulting the DT for songs first, and how to do that, and what to put in a heading for a thread. And things like bbc's resources, and the Mudcat Songbook and other stuff. And a bit about the history of the Mudcat and suchlike.

It's fun finding out all that stuff yourself, but I think this could head-off some of the things that can cause friction, and maybe mean we sometimes lose people who have good stuff to share.

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: Okiemockbird
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 08:34 PM

McGrath, your proposal is broader than my original notion. But between your idea of a general Mudcat FAQ and Joe Offer's idea of adding more background information to the DT (or at least setting up an ongoing project to do so), probably everything would be accomplished that my hypothetical "song history FAQ" would have been intended to accomplish.

In other words: I like your idea!

T.

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 08:51 PM

...in the meantime...I find it very helpful when some of the "Old Timers" remember a previous thread and put a link to it in the current thread. Somehow it seems that all our computerization just can't match a person's memory...and of course a Mudcatter's generous willingness to share. I stumbled onto this thread from a link in another thread.

Mary

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Jan 00 - 11:16 PM

HI- I don't know if anyone realizes just how much time this eminently worthwhile suggestion would take. I'm delighted to add notes to existing (or new) entries, and I do so when the material is available. Remember, though, that Digitrad was, and is, and probably always will be a songbook; hopefully the world's biggest and best, but nevertheless a songbook. If we stopped to research and provide notes for every song, it might be a more valuable reasearch tool, but it would definitely be a worse and skimpier songbook. The DT numbers, and the keywords were instituted to make searching easier. They're not complete, and if you will let me know where we've slipped up, I'm make every attempt to correct omissions and inaccuracies. Remember though, that every time we add a song, we have to do some check on whether other versions are in the DT before we can attach a number. Since I sincerely doubt that any one person is familiar with the DT's entire content, it'as not surprising that many slip by. If yiou know about the history of any song we already have, please post it. I'll try to incorporate it into the next edition.

dick

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: MMario
Date: 05 Jan 00 - 09:10 AM

IF (and I realize it is a big IF) Max goes with a monthly magazine format, perhaps some of this can be done by 'catter volunteers. My thought would be they would be posted as an article to the magazine, then should the powers that be (DickG) decide to incorperate them in the DT, hopefully it will be much easier for him. Or perhaps they could be archived as "The Digital Tradition Companion" or some such.

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 06 Jan 00 - 06:44 PM

There are around 850 DT numbers, of which the first 305 are Child. All the Laws songs got DT #s and some of the somgs that we noticed exist in several versions. The problem with keeping this accurate is (1) not recognizing that there are already versions of the song in the DT at the time the number is added and (2) not remembering that it has a number when another version is added. Once upon a time, when there were merely 3000 or so songs, Dick and I had a reasonable idea what songs were in the DT. That is no longer true. We will be happy to add the numbers to forgotten members of families and to number other songs as well as update other info, as people suggest/provide it. Remember that there are 2 new versions year, rather than continuous updates.

There are FAQs on the DT under digitrad links in the lower portion of the search box, which is not terrribly obvious to newbies.

Subject: RE: Needed? Song history FAQ ?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:34 PM

I was digging through an old almost forgotten Pete Frame Rock Family Tree tome and found that he had already done some work on the Folk Rock world ... how about we bring him out of retirement and craft a folkie Tree?

Cheers/Ciao,

Brian