Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:26 AM

Exactly my point Dave. I think my post was removed as part of collateral damage for going off topic. A shame as I'd put a bit of effort into it though I understand the mods' decision

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:28 AM

DAVE ,The person who did the bookings was, ged todd not you, if you wish to not improve, that is rather sad and bears out something jim has said elsewhere that one of the reasons for folk clubs losing attendance is the attitude of peopkle like you, who are apparantly happy ..in your own words to not improbve mediocrity.
jim was actually saying that the [if i understand him correctly] that the pursuit of a pleasant sound rather than the importance of clarity of lyrics particularly in narrative ballds turns the music into wallpaper music. i would agree with that.
i believe that if people wish to show off their instrumental dexterity they should do it on instrumentals
to be fair to jon doran, his vocals were much clearer than the clip of the girl singer and on listening a second time there was only one word that was not clear. i believe jon doran has lot of potential so does that other singer, but my advice would be to jon to listen to performers like martyn wyndham read who never let the accompaniment dominate the singing, if the performer is doing a narrative ballad do the instrumental at the beginning or the end.the words of a narrative ballad are the most important thing .in an instrumentalvariation of the tune dynamics and feeling are more important than playing at full blast all the time

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:37 AM

"Jim has his views on what he considers to be folk music "
Again - nothing to do with what I think - I ah=ve a century and a half's documented evidence to back up what I know yto be folk music - unless all the century and a half hae been to work a huge con
You can't even scrape up a half decent agreed definition between you
Your non-definition is based on a small and dwindling number of people deciding they want 'folk' to mean something else entirely
I'd be grateful if you'd stop putting it down to me
Thousands left the scene when it ceased to provide what it said it was providing - many my age but some younger, which means those who believe the standing definition of folk songs is the correct one are by far in the majority
Articles continue to be written and exchanged worldwide confirming folk still means folk everywhere other than on the English club scene
Sorry 'bout that
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:37 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO_xmAUU3Sw this someone to be emulated as regards tradtional song in the present uk revival, the concertina could have been a little quieter but a very minor crticism

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:41 AM

finally dave when i last played geds club, last year the standard of floorsingers was high such as gary and vera aspey dave and helen howard nobody who was mediocre

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:44 AM

All the bookings went through Ged, Dick, as it would have caused confusion if all three of us did our own thing. I can assure you though that the bookings were agreed by all of us. I can also assure you that I appreciate the advice even if I don't always take it and I thank you for being honest and constructive. I include the comment on my weight which I take no offence at at all. I am working on that and am down 2 stone on my heaviest. Only 3.5 more to go :-D

It comes down to priorities again. Do I want to spend use my time improving my technique? Yes, but not to the detriment of any one of a host of other priorities. Your priorities are different of course as your musicianship is far more important to you than mine is to me. If I have ever put anyone off returning to a folk club then I apologise for that but I don't think I have. The offer of starting a "How I ruined the folk scene" thread still stands. Just say the word.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:47 AM

You need to go unannounced on a singers night, Dick. Some are a lot better than me. Some are a lot worse. In my opinion.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:51 AM

A mix of paid guests and floorsingers at Swinton

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 10:18 AM

"A mix of paid guests and floorsingers at Swinton"
Mancunians singing blues (I think - couldn't really follow the words) and rtrying to sound like Yanks (and failing miserably)
Always got a good solid and honest performance from M W R
performance

---

Twenty percent of this thread has, over time, been deleted due to personal attacks and off-topic nonsense. This may be an interesting thread to some of you, but it is an example of how several Mudcat old-timers can't keep to the topic, and always have to make threads about themselves. Stop goring each others' oxen and stick to the topic of young folk singers. YOU HAVE EXHAUSTED THE TOPIC OF "WHAT IS FOLK" so set it aside. If you can do that and there is something still to discuss, then this thread is open. For a while, anyway. ----mod

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 21 May 20 - 05:23 AM

Since my name has been mentioned a few times I thought I would weigh in briefly.
When you are a young Folk enthusiast, you take your influences from what is available. In my day it was what I heard in my local Folk Club, followed by what I could afford to buy in Dobells' Jazz and Blues shop (which had a superb Folk section). Then I tried to copy what I had heard, and eventually found I couldn't do it and came to my own style.
Now I realise this is more or less what has been said already, some kinder than others in this thread, however I think we should view Jon Doran as work in progress. He will hopefully find his own way. It is easier in this day and age to find good recordings to hear.
The big problem is to get past the massive wall of 'I WANT TO PLAY LIKE THAT!!! I know I had to climb it myself. There were a few people who gave me a foot up that wall, Ewan McColl and his magnificent Song Carrier programmes, were a lightbulb moment, and re-assessing the work of my elders and betters, and reading and listening.
As I draw my pension I can say that I cannot listen to Nic Jones any more. Why? His style is so unique that it's almost like a death sentence to the song. I can listen to Cyril Tawney, Burl Ives (yes there is a lot to learn!) and MWR.
So lets be kind to Jon Doran. Either he will get past the sound to the song or he won't. Me-I'm optimistic, and I never deliberately give offence to anyone least of all fellow music makers. I was given a version of The 'Dark Eyed Gypsy' recorded by the Blackpool Gypsies from Bartley Gorman, Tyson Fury's great Grandfather. Same tune and some verses. I probably would never have found the singers I have recorded if it were not for my local Folk Club, those who sang in it, and being guided in the direction of Lloyd, McColl, and yes Jim Carroll. Lets all keep safe, positive and singing.
Nick Dow

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 08:13 AM

I'm glad this thread is back. Apart from one of two bits of rancour it has been interesting. Staying with the topic, I disagree with Bonzo on a few things but agree entirely with him here. When you see youngsters like Jon putting the effort in to perform traditional folk music there is indeed hope for folk music. Whether you like his style or how he will develop is immaterial. The point is, as long as he keeps with folk, the music will stay alive. There are many others out there too. Granny's Attic being a prime example. I think Nick mentioned he had done some work with Cohen which is a good thing too if I am right. Old and new in harmony :-)

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 21 May 20 - 08:49 AM

Yes here we are singing a song from the repertoire of Bert Lloyd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONkDXwiU-Ok

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 09:17 AM

Thanks Nick. That was great :-) Where was it?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 09:34 AM

the hope for folk music or the uk folk revival depends on younger people organising events, if they do not then there will be very little future

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 21 May 20 - 09:39 AM

You're 100% right about that, Dick. We've had things collapse because the same people ran it for years, and when, for whatever reason, they stopped, no one took over. There were artists, but no bookings.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 21 May 20 - 10:03 AM

It was at the Poppy Folk Club.
A few of the younger performers are organising. Fay Heald and Bryony Griffith spring to mind.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:29 AM

Younger organisers are essential but also a critical mass of younger people as participants and audience.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 12:05 PM

Yes, we do need someone to take over from existing organisers but is that really the most important thing? Surely, unless you have an audience and someone to entertain them, there is little point in organising an event. I presume by organisers we are talking of clubs and festivals. Bear in mind that these are a recent construct and folk music has been going a lot longer than either. As long as people like Jon are performing, they will find an audience with or without formal organisation. After all, did the source singers need clubs and festivals?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 02:48 PM

After all, did the source singers need clubs and festivals?quote
that was why there had to be a uk folk revival , because it virtually died out

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 02:59 PM

But just what had died out, Dick? If there were no folk clubs or festivals prior to, let's say, 1950, then where was folk performed before? I would guess houses and pubs and, if that is the case, then it wasn't so much a revival as a birth. Or am I missing something?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:17 PM

I get a distinct feeling of Deja Vue here.

Folk music is not what I wish it to be, it is not want Dave, Joe, Dick or Jim wishes.

However. What I see and hear week in week out pleases me, for the most part, yes I wish some people wouldn't bother and some people I normally take a trip to the bar or the bogs to avoid. But such is life.

When I first ventured into a folk club over 50 years ago it was very much the same, some performers pleased me some didn't. Many of those people from 50 years ago have now passed on to the great singaround in the sky or have putrefied, which is the reality.

Things do not remain the same. 50 years ago I seldom saw a mandola, mandolin, banjo, accordian or Nicaraguan Nose Flute. Today all manner of instruments abound and I believe have benefited folk music.

Other people will disagree with me but that doesn't mean I'm wrong it only means that they don't agree with me.

I had never heard of Jon Doran until I started reading this thread I am delighted he has shown an interest in the music I love and hope he continue to play and sing. If he can make a few bob along the way good luck to him.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:19 PM

yes, as i understand it you are missing something , it[ what is generally understood to be traditional folk song and dance had to be revived that was why it was called a revival.
as i understand it there were a few isolated areas where people occasionally met in houses but it was virtually dead, in the 1950s[ thanks to Sharp] we used to sing these songs and do country dancing in primary schools.
The English Folk Dance and Song Society was founded in 1932 to preserve, promote and develop the English folk arts, and specifically song, tune and dance.

The organisation was created by the merger of the Folk-Song Society (founded 1898) and the English Folk Dance Society (founded 1911).

Here is a quick recap of some of our major milestones.
1898

Folk-Song Society founded to collect and preserve folk songs and tunes primarily from Britain and Ireland. Its membership included existing researchers Sabine Baring-Gould, Lucy Broadwood and Frank Kidson and many other researchers, academics and musicians.
1903

Cecil Sharp collects his first folk songs in Somerset. The composer Ralph Vaughan Williams starts collecting folk songs.
1911

English Folk Dance Society founded to both collect folk dance including Morris, sword and country dances, and to publish and teach them.
1930

Cecil Sharp House, the first dedicated folk arts centre in the UK, opens in Camden Town, London, as a memorial to Cecil Sharp following his death in 1924.
1932

EFDS and FSS merge to form the English Folk Dance and Song Society. Ralph Vaughan Williams becomes President.
1935

EFDSS hosts the world’s first International Folk Dance Festival in London.
1960
Sidmouth folk festival, starts 1954.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:24 PM

Folk music pre and post internet..

Folk music pre and post covid..

Add both together, then that's core future for keeping folk music alive and healthy...

Any surviving physical pubs, clubs, and festivals will be an added bonus.....

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:33 PM

rThings do not remain the same. 50 years ago I seldom saw a mandola, mandolin, banjo, accordian or Nicaraguan Nose Flute. Today all manner of instruments abound and I believe have benefited folk music. quote
no. i dont disagree, and may i remind people that we[ myself and my ex wife sue ]were one of the first people to introduce the clarinet and the first to use concertina and clarinet together.
,   i have no problem with acompaniment for songs, I prefer the way MWR and Nic Dow use it to others[ nic jones carthy] who stick a long instrumental in the middle of a narrative ballad, that is my prefernce and it has been one of the bits of advice i have given,like you i think Jon has potential and i have wished him success with his music. A MISTAKE THAT A LOT OF PERFOMERS MADE IN THE SEVENTIES WAS TO IMITATE MARTIN CARTH ,MORE LATTERLY THERE HAVE BEEN NIC JONES IMITATORS. TO SUCCEED YOU HAVE TO FIND YOUR OWN IDENTITY.by all means ccpy as a stepping stone but eventually you have to make your own style.
in the concertina world you could not confuse steve turner dick miles or lou killen peter bellamy brian peters damien barber for anyone else

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:54 PM

Always got a good solid and honest performance from M W R

--------:--------

I can listen to Cyril Tawney, Burl Ives (yes there is a lot to learn!) and MWR.

--------:--------

i have no problem with acompaniment for songs, I prefer the way MWR and Nic Dow use it ...


Excuse my ignorance, but who is MWR?


DC

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:57 PM

martyn wyndham read

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 21 May 20 - 04:09 PM

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 04:56 PM

Sorry if I seem to be going off topic but please bear with me. I will get to the thread theme eventualy!

I'm going to have to have a think and sleep on this but I am getting the germ of an idea. Looking at the milestones that Dick very kindly provided it seems that prior to 1898, folk music just happened. For millennia it got along quite nicely but 122 years ago it started to be studied and collected. Less than 60 years after that date someone decided that folk music needed to be revived and so it was taken out of houses, pubs, barns and other public places and put into folk clubs. Another 60 years down the line and we are told it needs reviving again so it is coming out of folk clubs and being put elsewhere by media savvy and imaginative youngsters like Jon and Cohen! See, told you I'd get there :-)

Here is the bit I need to think about. 120 years ago there as a major change when folk music was brought to the attention of the collectors etc. 60 years later there was another major change with the folk revival and the birth of the folk club. 60 years later we are now up to date and due another major change. What is it to be?

Maybe acts like Jon and Granny's attic. Maybe pushing folk into mainstream media. Maybe using modern methods of distribution more effectively. Who knows, cos I don't! Any ideas?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 21 May 20 - 07:00 PM

With the greatest respect Dave you are a bit off the mark. There have been collectors of songs since the seventeenth century and probably before. The term Folk Music is a relatively new term. The songs did not just happen they were composed, and often found their way on to contemporary street literature, or in fact originated there. Cecil Sharp with his mission to revive, came late to Folk Song. Baring Gould John and Lucy Broadwood pre dated him.
OK I'll stop there and suggest you do a bit of reading. Bert Lloyd Steve Roud etc. Try and avoid Harker and his Fakesong if you can, you may spend too much time throwing his book at the wall.
Meanwhile nowt much has changed for eons but medium and venue. The enemy of Folk Song or any song for that matter is silence. I do not think we're going to stop singing, and the rest is inevitable. Ask any performing singer/musician and you will be told that you do not choose music, it chooses you.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:53 AM

yes, indeed, Nick

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 20 - 02:31 AM

Ah, ok. Thanks Nick. I was wrong about the change 120 years ago then but surely there was a big change in the first revival 60 years ago. That was when the revival put folk music into clubs and the whole folk scene as we now discuss it was born. In England anyway. So, folk clubs are a recent construct. Folk music was going for millennia before them and will continue long after. Those of us who have grown up with them and helped to nurture that scene will, understandably, mourn its passing. But the music is the important thing and it is youngsters like Jon who will have the ideas of how best to keep it alive. They are the hope for the future.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 02:54 AM

only if they realise that they have to organise events themselves , a few are but more are needed.
i doubt if it will survive with just a few people playing in each others houses, paradoxically once the music becomes heavily commercialised it seems to lose its closeness to its roots. the establishment and the media prefer commercial music to not question authority and not to have lyrics that require thought.
thinking is dangerous, let us take the seemingly innocous golden vanity this could be a metaphor for the bankers of the world today. They promise you the world, and when it's time to pay up, they leave you drowning
.on the subject of chosen ones this brings us to trump a player of the pink oboe

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:00 AM

An exception is ireland where the government in the [past has poured money] into supprting tradtional music

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:45 AM

I am sure it would survive with a few people playing in houses/barns/pubs because it did for thousands of years before folk clubs were invented. But we don't want it to just survive, we want it to flourish and to bring it to a bigger audience. That is where the youngsters come in. We have to face it, Dick, we are the old guard now. Our idea of a good time is not the same as a 20 year old's. While we enjoyed the folk clubs of the last revival, they may not. We need to hand the reins over to them. While keeping an eye on their driving of course ;-)

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:52 AM

Oh, and it's no good telling them they need to organise events if we expect them to organise events like we did. They need to be given their heads to arrange them their own way and, probably, make their own mistakes. We can advise them.of course but how much is a 20 year old going to listen to the ramblings of a 70 year old?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 05:49 AM

anyway back to jon doran, he is a lot better than i was at his age.
Dave,i disagree the principles of good organising are not age related,
festivals ,the best way to start for the inexperience and perhaps ask advice in the area of people who have experience
tart with a one day festival.
or as regards clubs or similiar a regular monthly venue call it what ever, but a monthly commitment is not so demanding, it is a mistake to bite off more than one can chew, keep it small build up gradually

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 May 20 - 06:15 AM

I have no idea who the subject of this discussion is, but hope the following may provoke thoughts about the music post-Covid 19?
Local events like sessions were thriving before Covid, so why does folk music need all these myriad festivals and clubs and other organised events at all?
As DnG says, folk music seemed to manage OK up till then & although there was plenty of collected material around at that stage, it took the likes of Lonnie Donegan to point many of us in the right direction. His music was accessible, unlike those sources... I do recall researching the EFDSS's collection in the 60s being more forbidding than Fort Knox- not like Youtube in that respect?

There was probably a time about 60 plus years ago when many in UK became aware of their own tradition and like myself tried to absorb it- we became involved in the folk clubs- from early childhood I was always aware of the songs of my own Tyneside but knew little of the Child Ballads, Northumbrian Minstrelsy - that knowledge came later, via the folk clubs.

Since then, the clubs have done us all a great service on a local basis, but I've never really understood the attraction of festivals without a distinct local & community basis- Ireland is good at this, and also at honouring respected musicians, and I think of the East Anglian & Scottish TMSA festivals as good models.
I cannot see the enjoyment in flying around the country listening to much the same super-folkies every weekend of summer although younger people have no doubt found these events to have other attractions?- there speaks an old codger!

I contributed an article some tears ago to 'Living Tradition'about folk music having its roots in the community & regretting the more recent negative influence of commerce & I stand by that.
I do folk clubs very rarely these days, and I do realise some people have made a career of it, and good luck to them. However, it's not really a job and I think the present emergency may be bringing all that to an end.
If the Covid-19 has the longterm effect of ending the nationwide club/festival scene, I would not regret it. Its future may be in the past- after all, it survived for centuries in communities before the 'revival' and taken with the huge increase in availability of song, story and music by digital means, there are more than enough young singers & musicians to continue the music on a local basis.
Most importantly, they should do it in their own way, without interference from us old codgers on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 22 May 20 - 07:04 AM

An example of "Hope for Irish folk music" - just posted yesterday, apparently :
https://youtu.be/kraCA8XjctI

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 20 - 08:14 AM

"i doubt if it will survive with just a few people playing in each other houses"

Serious question for you Dick, just how did it survive for hundreds of years prior to the advent of folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 08:48 AM

Jim , i suggest you listen to the clip.THERE IS NO HARM IN GIVING ADVICE , it does not have to be taken,
I wish i had had more people to have asked advice.
i did seek advice from and older person and he advised me to concentrate on uk trad material ,i am glad he gave me advice
.as for the rest of your post let us wait and see to quote stanley Baldwin

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 08:54 AM

very different times, raggy todaymany including many young are eager particpants in music as consumerism,not as a hobby. even the suggestion and the wording of this thread that one person gives hope for folk music has a flavour of pop stardom,that attitude is a late 20 century and 21st century phenomenon

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 May 20 - 09:03 AM

Dick, I have taken a lot of advice in my time & acted accordingly, or not.
I would hope that what you and I & many others have done by example will have been influential over the years and has been good for the music's future- let's hope so anyway.
It's a period when a lot of things will need to change & folk music will be no exception- it can't go back to what it was a few months ago & I was just outlining what I think should happen...
ps don't think I'll take any notice of what Stanley Baldwin had to say- not one of my heroes

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 22 May 20 - 09:23 AM

Jim Bainbridge, or anyone who's done discussing Jon Doran: I think it would make a great thread. "The future of folk music in a post-Covid-19 world".

I don't know why people seem so hesitant to start new threads.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:15 PM

Yes Jeri- that seems a good idea

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 May 20 - 02:15 AM

It's interesting that Argentina has a vibrant folk scene, and is a major part of its culture, with both singing and dancing, and even forms a major part of its tourist trade!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 20 - 04:05 AM

I have no idea who the subject of this discussion is,
I agree almost complerely with your sentiments Jim but I do take issue with your "old codger" remark
I suspect that, like me and others, you benefitted from the advice and practical assistance from the older singers and researchers that were generous to offer their help when we first dipped our toe into the scene - they had been where we wanted to go and they had met and overcome the pitfalls of being new
More than at any time now, where there is a massive fog hanging over the identity of folk song, new people need help in finding their way through the pea-souper and make their choices by being given all the information available to make their choices
Nobody expects them to agree or follow everything they are told- we certainly didn't, but at least some of us were given a wide choice of options
he renaissance that is taking place in Ireland at present would never have happened if it hadn't been for te old fogeys like Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Pddy Tunney and Joe Heaney, and researchers like Lomax, Sean O'Boyle, Hugh Shields, Tommy Munnelly, and even earlier Seamus Delargy - they all went where youngsters need to be given the chance to go

I can't find the quote but someone (Raggy I think) repeated the mantra that folk isn't what Jim or others want it to be
Whoever said it - yes it is' I'm afraid
I don't "want it to be" aything - it is what it has been researched, identified and defined as being as being for at lest 150 years and a small and diminishing number of folkies who might want it to be something else are not going to chnge that until they can agree and win support for what and who has replaced it - wandering around chanting "nobody knows what folk song is any more" really doesn't hack it - folk song is far too well defined and recorded for
Anybody with doubts migh look in the magnificent 8 volume Greig Duncan Folk Song Collection or the mammoth James M Carpenter, English Scots and American on line folk song collection (or even the tiny 'Penguin Book of English Folk Songs) to find folk songs
If anybody has an alternative, I'd live to hear it
Up to now, Humpty Dumpty's "word mean what I want them to mean" law seems to be ruling the roost - with the inevitable results

as going to post this yesterday but I thought I'd wait for the dust to settle (is it my imagination or has a thread ion Bert Lloyd disappeared - (maybe I've been overdoing the takeaway Guinness)
Jim

e

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:45 AM

Jim,
   what I was saying was not to denigrate old codgers everywhere, I benefited from the EXAMPLE of older singers rather than their advice- I found in many cases it was THEY who needed advice about how to handle newfound fame!

I was just saying there is a vast amount of material ON TOP of what we were aware of in the early days. Also that we can state our view of the music, as you have consistently, but it's up to younger folk to either listen or not & go from there- they have the tools.
I have a different view of the music, but we won't go into that- things have to change, and over the years we've never been able to close off our music from the crass end of the commercial world as I think we'd both prefer.
However there are changes coming everywhere & maybe in the world of folk music, maybe with all its horrors, Covid 19 will do the job for us & set us all on a different route?
I'll continue this theme (if necessary) on the thread suggested by Jeri.
ps- my local pub/brewery in Scotland will deliver 12x half litre bottles of his own brew for £25 - will Guinness not do that? - maybe not the price, but it's the Covid equivalent of the milk round- it doesn't come on the NHS unfortunately

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 20 - 06:15 AM

" I benefited from the EXAMPLE of older singers rather than their advice"
I found both an immense help - they new whaaaat folk song was and how important it was
They didn't always say the same thing in detail but basically they were aall coming from the same place
Much have what has been added has got in the way of people understanding the music and has led to less rather than more followers
The dream of the old crowd of revivalists was to add to the tradition rather than replace is, which seems to e the case today
What it boils to is that Ireland now has a guaranteed future for its music alongside a healthy experimental movement whereas in England, the old songs are teetering on the brink of disappearing onto the shelves and in the archives
Past disasters like The Famine actually provided the fertilizer in which oral traditions could deepen home roots and lay down new ones wherever the refugees fled to find new homes
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 May 20 - 06:38 AM

If I may give a little slice of opinion here, I have always felt the presence, the company of older musicians a great help. Not just as an example musically or advice or guidance given but simply the company that gives you context and insights into the culture and attitudes around it, perhaps more important than just the music per se. But that is in the Irish context, that seems very different to me from the English folkscene that appears so obsessed with clubs and bookings.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 May 20 - 06:45 AM

I was under the impression that people like Nancy Kerr, Seth Lakeman and someone else whose name escapes my just now (- we have builders next door making traditional mechanical noises!!!) are adding to the tradition with various projects in which they have become involved. Ah yes The Askew Sisters with their "Enclosure" project.