John from Elsie's Band / south London

Subject: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 07:56 AM

Just read the following comment from a mudcat poster called 'John from Elsie's Band' in an old post about Martin Windsor:

"Martin Windsor was a regular guest at the clubs we ran at Catford (The Railway Tavern) ,Lee Green (The Old Tigers Head) and others in the Crystal Palace and Sydenham area and possibly Chiselhurst caves"

John, if you're reading this, I'd love to know more about the clubs you ran in Sydenham, Catford and Crystal Palace.

I'm a Sydenham resident and was just about to start a folk club here when the pandemic hit, scuppering that idea for the foreseeable future.

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 08:01 AM

I remember all these clubs from my years in college in Eltham - 1963 to
1967

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST,John From "Elsie`s Band"
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 10:04 AM

Matt,
    As a result of attending a singing club with Bert LLoyd in Greenwich, circa 1963, I met fellow members there called Potty Walker and Tom Tomkins. I was told me of a folk club in Catford at "The Railway Tavern" and taken there for an introduction. It was run by David Watts and Robin Gray, members of a group called The Taverners. I became part of their team and was the ticket man on the door. It was there, among many others, we had M.Carthy, P.Simon, M.Windsor, N.Catouse, The Haverim, T.Rose, The Young Tradition, J.Felix and so many more. "The Melody Maker" archives could shed more light. I believe the landlord of the "Railway" decided to call a halt and David and Robin again set up shop in pubs not too far from Crystal Palace,(their names desert me), me still being on the door and upsetting students by not letting them in for free. One memorable night we had B.Jansch. He asked me to roll him a cigarette possibly thinking it a something special but it was only "Old Holborn". It was also my introduction to the songs of Fred Jordan. The next one that David and Robin instituted was "The Old Tiger`s Head" at Lee Green, once again me still officiating. Memorable nights when Alex Campbell`s guitar case was spattered with Alan "Tiny" Craig`s spew following an eating and drinking exhibition. He was not best pleased. Also there was a young lad, a friend of one of my football team members, Gordon Gilltrap. Such youthful, astonishing talent. I believe our next club was in Chiselhurst Caves. Memorable guests being P.Simon and Sandy and Jeannie. With David and Robin both marrying their respective wives and moving to Edenbridge we became acquainted with Ken Stubbs and his Sing and Play Nights at "The Wheatsheaf", Marsh Green and "The Queens Arms",(first "Annie`s then "Elsie`s") at Cowden Pound. For us the rest is history. David continued to be the mover and shaker for "Our Sing and Play Nights" at both pubs and we have enjoyed a good innings, settled at "Elsie`s", until this virus and the pub`s recent change of use. At some time during this era we also met and became close to Jim Bainbridge and our friendship has remained so. Robin and I ran for a while a club on Blackheath at "The Green Man" (circa 1964/65). P.Simon was one of our popular guests. The pub is now a block of up-market flats. I am sorry I cannot provide more details for you, it was not the habit then of keeping diaries but so much happened. The more I think, the more guest names come to mind.

Matt, I hope this is of interest.
John

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 12:17 PM

I went to all the clubs that John mention and remember Tiny Craig and Dave Watts from those days. Also a harmony group called the Four Square Circle and someone else who was always introduced as The Singing Undertaker. The first time that I saw The Yetties was at the 'Old Tiger's Head' when they got everyone to put chairs against the wall and turned the end of the evening into a dance. There was folk clubs at both the 'Old' and 'New' Tiger's Heads and one I often went to was at the "Rising Sun" at Lee Green run by Dave Cooper.
Tina and I ran the "Tramps & Hawkers" folk club at a pub on Blackheath Hill. I can remember that it was a Courage pub but I cannot remember the name. This was from 1966-1968 when we moved to Sussex

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 03:17 PM

I was a booked guest at the rising sun catford, when Ruth Cooper and her husband and later Nic Dow, ran the club.
it was an idiosyncratic
room with an upstairs library and the singers sang from below a canopy.
Vic, Was the pub in blackheath called the station, or the duchess of kent

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 06:21 PM

Thanks all. I do like hearing bits and pieces of local folk (club) history.

Last couple of years has seen a mini-renaissance of southeast London folk clubs. A few young Goldsmiths students and graduates have been putting on clubs and sessions in New Cross and the Old Kent Road, plus the Bermondsey Folk Club, while there are two folk clubs in East Dulwich and several scattered sessions around these parts.

I'm hoping to go to an outdoor session in Folkestone Park, New Cross, this Thursday evening, which will be my first live folk event since March.

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST,John from "Elsie`s Band"
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 04:42 AM

Vic,
Thanks for your memories. "Four Square Circle",( Ken Barton, Robin and Stephen Gray and myself). Such times.

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 02:27 AM

Matt , the room is of great importance, when starting a folk club.

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 04:52 AM

It's an OUTDOOR session, so the room is irrelevant

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST,Henry Piper (of Ottery )
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 04:59 AM

The Singing Undertaker Was Dave Wiltshire,.... I have very fond memories of Pheobus Awakes at Catford, I was a close friend of The Late Jacqui Walker and her then husband Barry , as well as Dave "The Grave" and also Bob Axford, It was Jacqui in fact, along with her Brother Rob, who introduced me to the club, and to Sidmouth Folk Festival and ultimately led me to living down here in Devon.

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 06:18 AM

matt milton you said you were hoping to start a folk club ,hence my remark about the room, if you were intending to start an outdoor session could you not havebeen more specific. i am assuming this post was from you
ubject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 04:52 AM

It's an OUTDOOR session, so the room is irrelevant

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 06:22 AM

in my opinion the room at the rising sun in catford was not an ideal room, the canopy was distinctly eccentric, Dave Cooper[ who some called the singing penguin]always looked as if he was trapped inside a cage at a zoo, and was trying to crane his neck out to escape

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 10:01 AM

The Canopy at The Rising Sun Catford was not an original feature it was built during a refurbishment, Prior to that Artistes simply stood in front of the fireplace to perform, on the few occasions when there was a roaring fire going this made for a quite uncomfortable performance !!!.

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST,Henry Piper (of Ottery )
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 10:01 AM

Apologies above guest was me !!

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 11:01 AM

Sandman - that comment about the session being outdoors wasn't me.

But I am considering going to an outdoor session this evening, a little trek across south London to New Cross.

Any ideas I had to start a local fok club/singaround are currently on hold for obvious coronavirus reasons.

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 03:43 PM

Sorry Matt , just some troll

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 03:22 AM

Disappointed to hear about the demise of ‘Elsie’s’ - a floor spot there has long been on my bucket list.

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 20 - 03:34 AM

yes, very sad.

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Sep 20 - 04:01 AM

Doris pub on Romney Marsh, hd a few sessions in there, even arranged for The Wearsider Jim Bainbridge to be taken there., and we had a lovely afternoon

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 06 Sep 20 - 04:38 PM

Yes, a wonderful old pub, where the Elsie's crowd and friends had a regular session of pub music & laughs- anything goes with no 'folk' hangups- it was a lovely place- maybe it will resume in the future
I managed it about once a year & really miss it- maybe one day John?....

nb Dick, I'm a Tynesider from South Shields- my football allegiance is 6 miles south of there, but I don't talk about it

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 01:51 AM

Folk handups,I have none,Jim,
I would rather listen to most folk songs than most popsongs, give me The Rambling Irishman in prefernce to WE ARE ALL GOING ON A SUMMER HOLIDAY. It is all about what you want to sing, you sing what you want and i will sing what i like. so I would appreciate it if you did not criticise me or anyone else for singing folk songs, and refrring to folk as folk hang ups.
the only hang ups, i have are based on quality of song and i find most of that quality in the folk repertoire not in in the popular music repertoire, there are a few exceptions in the popular music repertoire Harry Chapin shortest story., for example
Give me lou Killen singing the flying cloud. or The Wilson Family singing Miners Life,    rather than Dave Clark Five, singing Lily the Pink. but each to their own.
given that choice i will stick to my folk hang ups, and sing The Bantry Girls Lament etc.
Jim you are the life and soul of the party always buying others pints, having the craic, may i wish you good health and happiness

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 03:13 AM

Jim .That song you sing about Jesus Christ thats a great song was that written by box car willie?.
Big Jim, a great man for the craic, buying others pints,life and soul of the party, May the road rise up to meet you. May the wind always be at your back. May the sun shine warm upon your face, and rains fall soft upon your fields. And until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.”

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 03:17 AM

I do not mean this one, but this might interest you
All the streets are filled with laughter and light
And the music of the season
And the merchants windows are all bright
With the faces of the children
And the families hurrying to their homes
As the sky darkens and freezes
Theyll be gathering around the hearths and tales
Giving thanks for all God's graces
And the birth of the rebel Jesus
Well they call him by the Prince of Peace
And they call him by the Savior
And they pray to him upon the seas
And in every bold endeavor
As they fill his churches with their pride and gold
And their faith in him increases
But they've turned the nature that I worshipped in
From a temple to a robber's den
In the words of the rebel Jesus
We guard our world with locks and guns
And we guard our fine possessions
And once a year when Christmas comes
We give to our relations
And perhaps we give a little to the poor
If the generosity should seize us
But if any one of us should interfere
In the business of why they are poor
They get the same as the rebel Jesus
But please forgive me if I seem
To take the tone of judgement
For I've no wish to come between
This day and your enjoyment
In this life of hardship and of earthly toil
We have need for anything that frees us
So I bid you pleasure
And I bid you cheer
From a heathen and a pagan
On the side of the rebel Jesus

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 05:45 AM

There was no element of criticism of you in my last post, Dick so I don't be so sensitive! - I DO NOT seek an argument, so please check back & see that I didn't say YOU have any hangups- you've never been to Doris's session with me, it's just that all is accepted there without any judgments being made.

I can't really follow the next two posts although I think you are being complimentary to me?? I'm not sure if Willie Nelson (not Bixcar Willie!) wrote the 'Troublemaker' but I got it from Willie Nelson's 70s? LP called 'Precious Memories'.

On the subject of the thread, during my time at college in Twickenham 1963-66, I helped run the St Mary's folk club, with Roger Sutcliffe in the last year. Bookings included yer man P. Simon, Dave & Toni Arthur, Peter Kennedy, Bert Jansch, The Strawberry Hill Boys (later the Strawbs) Shirley Collins, Johnny Handle & various London Irish musicians- box player Paddy Carrigys from Longford & PJ Doherty- resident box player on Sunday night at the Jenny Lind in Sutton at that time-   
Looking at that list my taste hasn't changed much!

I also used to visit the Assembly rooms in Surbiton, the Albert on Kingston Hill (Bud Flanagan used to drink in the bar) the Fox at Islington, concerts at CS House- (I was there the night Kennedy was shot) & around the pot belly stove in the early days of the Fighting Cocks in Kingston, as well as various other college clubs in Isleworth, Dartford, Kensington etc...

I also remember meeting & hearing Sean McCarthy ('Step it out Mary') at his own club in Clapham Junction.    Happy days!!

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 06:29 AM

BigJim , man with a heart of gold

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 06:40 AM

I have been to Dorises pub with you we were driven by a guy called Sid, during tenterden festival one sun afternoon and we had a music session

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 08:46 AM

I can do without the sarcasm, thank you, could you keep to the subject please?
   I do recall that visit with you & Sid to a very quiet pub, that's not quite the same!
   I've enjoyed many convivial sessions in East Kent from 1975-89 on & off a few of these listed..
Royal Oak, Mersham,
Malvern in Dover,
Botolphs Bridge nr Hythe,
Foresters in Deal   
Honest Miller, nr Wye
Compasses, near Canterbury,
Endeavour at Wootton,
Ravens at Tilmanstone (with the miners)
Bell at Smarden.
The latter was recorded on one occasion & can be heard on the British Sound library site in the Bob Davenport collection- July 1979 it was, with Bob and Johnny Doughty in the bar- a little taste of the kind of convivial music I enjoyed then & still do. -Kate Bush & Jeff Beck were often in the bar at the Bell but we could never get them to sing!

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 10:57 AM

no sarcasm, jim we played in dorises in romney marsh kent we had a good time and they liked it
I too have had many good sessions and clubs Kent, at one time i lived there, the first club i went to was in Downe played at most of them in my time, rochester,oare, downe, two at orpington, deal folk club tunbridge wells tonbridge. bromley in various venues, faversham many times, folk atthe drum folk club ,
played twice running sessions with big jim at the lovely Tenterden folk festival.
Jim, you were a good neighbour and we had a few good sessions in the courtyard in Schull.What a great guitrist Pat Forester was, when i gigged with him he was the only guitarist that that i felt lifted the music, so many play just filling out the sound.
Alex Mckie was great craic too.
Mind you the best accordion player, i have heard, must have been Tony Hall, he came over to west cork too [after you had left] lovely relaxed playing and great at song accompaniment too

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 11:28 AM

I had a gig yesterday, with RICHIE TISDALL AND DES REDMOND . playing outside in the afternoon at a cafe in garretstown, overlooking the beach , playing was well received, do you remember Richie used to play with seamus creagh, great fiddler, you would have loved it Jim, that the only way, now jim, outside gigs

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 08 Sep 20 - 06:09 AM

The places I listed were pub sessions- I did a few clubs in Kent, but mainly public bars, which was why I felt at home in West Cork pubs?

I was just trying to add a little history to John's interesting info about the clubs he was involved with in South London & Kent & you've done the same....

   I think you're right about the future of the music being outdoors, but what will we do in December?

can't recall Richie but I met Dessie a few times- did he do the 'Old Sow?'--                back to the subject now....

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 20 - 06:51 AM

Emulate hedgehogs jim, hibernate, but maybe they will have a vaccine.

Subject: RE: John from Elsie's Band / south London
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 20 - 07:00 AM

Unfortunately, venues pubs for playing in the uk like elsies are disappearing fast.
for folk clubs in the uk, the most reliable options are british legion clubs, or cricket clubs where there is some stabilty of management, but the ambience of a room is so important, example was the club at the cricket rugby club? near south shields,which was imo just not right somehow,was it at westhoe?