The old man could only whisper the songs

Subject: Folklore: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 07:03 PM

So said Henry Hammond in 1905. The old traditional singer had throat cancer. He managed somehow to 'whisper' 84 songs. He was a Master Carter, a skilled and able horse man, and working driver who owned his own team. Once he was a great singer.
Some 60 years later one of his songs found its way into a popular songbook. The song dated back to the 16th century, but the 19th century text our singer used and its inspired tune, had never been collected or published before other than a Pitts broadside.
The song became popular in the clubs, and was taken up by an Irish duo. Overnight the song suddenly became an Irish Traditional song! It found its way into popular CD collections, like '100 Irish Folk Songs', and 'Ye Olde Irish songs'. Slowly American versions began to appear, with mangled words and altered tune. Finally a rock version arrived, and an Irish Country and Western version. The tune was used as a basis for a couple of Davy Graham type guitar expeditions, and adapted as a Morris tune.
The old man died in 1908, with his daughter by his bedside. He was once a well respected man, and his bones lie in a quiet Dorset Churchyard.
A certain amount of money has been made from our singers best known song, and good luck to the singers and musicians who have made it, but there is just one thing that saddens me. I imagine the old traditional singer was coughing and breathing hard, maybe even bringing up blood when he sang in 1905. Couldn't all the singers who sang his version of the song so successfully, not have taken the time to find out where the song came from, and at least mentioned his name? Not too much to ask is it?
What was his name, and what was the song?
His name was Robert Barratt of Puddletown Dorset, and the song was 'I live not where I love'
RIP Mr. Barrett, Master Horseman, Master Carter Husband Father and Traditional singer. Thank you for all your songs.
from Nick and, I hope, from Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Folklore: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: RTim
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 07:12 PM

Well said Nick...

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: RTim
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 10:23 PM

Nick - There is a problem at present with the EFDSS Archive and it doesn't seem possible to list all - 85 ??? - songs collected from Barrett....If you have a list, I would like to see it.....Can you e-mail it to me...Thanks

Tin Radford

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 02:55 AM

Sorry that was from memory it was 53 songs. The 85 included the songs from his good friend George Dowden, and shared songs at 'The Blue Vinny' pub, where they sang together. Plus those from Joseph Elliot, who was also a friend of both men.

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:05 AM

I mention his name when i perform the song, the song originally had about 40 verses and dates i believe from about 1650, he also sang the bonny little bunch of rushes

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 03:51 AM

I would like to hear you sing that Dick. Have you recorded it?

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 04:03 AM

That would be a good one for you to sing at the Monday Singaround, Dick. I can record it if you remind me.

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 04:31 AM

Dick would you consider putting it on You Tube as an antidote to some less considered versions I have heard?

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 08:45 AM

this is 12 years old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpbufMUjN70 it is faster than how i do it now

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 09:00 AM

That'll do Dick! I suspect that the ten year age is why it was not thrown up by Google. However posting it here is a good start to bringing it up the ladder a bit. With the exception of Tim Laycock, you are the only singer to have bothered to mention the source.
I think your version of the Factory Girl has to be my favourite of your posts but this is now a close second.

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:06 AM

Hi Nick
Great post. Have you read all of the notes in the second edition of Marrow Bones?

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:13 AM

thankyou, the accompaniment uses melody on and off the beat, it is a similiar idea to mississipi john hurt guitar style but without the basses.

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 10:51 AM

Yes Steve, and excellent they were. Dick you should start another thread on that. I've often noticed certain similarities in singing and accompaniment, between the two musical mediums, and I'm not the only one.

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 11:05 AM

Thanks for posting this thread Nick. We don't think enough about the people that gave us the songs we enjoy today. A good reminder of where they come from.

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 01:00 PM

It has come to my notice that over the last 50 years the uk folk revival and Folk clubs are booking many more singer songwriters, who although they sing in an acoustic style, include no or very little tradtional songs, the importance ofSharp or Baring Gould is possibly of no significance to them, they do not appear interested in traditional songs, they do not appear to be interested in the traditionl singers either.
i have witnessed people describe them on this forum occasions in a derogotary manner as "trousers up to their tits".
the trad singers and song carriers have been mocked on this forum on occasions
the songwriters such as MacColl had a great interst in the tradtional singers and songs, songwriters of higher calibre such as jezLowe and Richard Grainger have performed trad songs in the past, but some seem to have no interest or connection to the roots of the music, imo, at least uk folk revival blues singers are intersted in their roots,
So many aspire to be a star and a song writer yet it seems to be a minority[imo] are skilled songwriters , although many are skilled in presentation and sing competently and play instruments proficiently. i think an element of" I want to be a celebrity has crept in to the uk folk revival".

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 02:59 PM

Sorry, Dick, even though I am heavily involved in the traditional songs and singers, I don't agree with you on several counts here. The folk revival is at least 50% about entertainment and it is large enough to include those who want to write songs about their own lives and experiences without having had to study traditional music. The folksong writers of previous centuries didn't have to study anything in order to write these songs. In fact arguably the best ones came straight from the heart. My favourite songwriters and yours happen to be those influenced by and heavily involved in traditional song but we shouldn't be so prescriptive as to insist on that. There are plenty of skilled songwriters of both kinds and all shades in between.

As we've said many times before the folk scene is a broad church, and always was in my opinion.

As far as wannabe celebs go these are few and far between and have to have exceptional talents to actually attain that status. For every Billy Connoly there are 1000s of talented performers who never put their heads above the parapet.

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 03:55 PM

I agree that is good that people make their own music and be creative. Did I say that anybody had to study anything?. as regards entertainment and this is my subjective opinion . i would find it much more entertaining as regards performance and more varied if singer songwriters included at least one traditional song in each set.
in my experience   most songwriters struggle to write a repertoire of more than fifty per cent good material. I consistently have people come up to me and say how pleasant to hear some traditional material, very few guest people are singing trad songs.the trad songs that have survived have stod the test of time
Performance of 40 minute sets have beginning a middle and an end, choice of variety of keys tempos subject matters all CONTRIVE to produce a good evening, that is what entertainment is about.
you want a broad church, so do i.
When people consistently say to me so few guests are singing trad songs that indicates to me that it is no longer not a broad church. no one ie being prescriptive, but those people who like tradtiobnal music will stop going to clubs if most of the guests not singing it. I am merely relating feedback that i am regularly hearing

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 03:56 PM

typo it should be ..that is no longer a broad church

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: RTim
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 04:00 PM

After finally being able to search for Barratt in the EFDSS Archives...a question came to me - there are both a Barratt and a Barrett in Puddletown in the archives....and I wonder if they were one or two men....so I continued to research and found the following:

Robert Barrett….NO Barratt..???
and Puddletown used to be called Piddletown....
see:
https://www.opcdorset.org/PiddleFiles/Puddletown/Puddletown.htm

However with this info. and a search on Ancestory, I was able to find the below:

Puddletown/Piddletown Census
No Barratt..only Barrett – Married Elizabeth Jane Cumbleton of Sydling
                                On 5 April 1858 (also spelt Combleton)
1836 – Robert Barrett b. in Puddletrenthide
1841 – No Robert – but living in Sherborne
1851 – Robert aged 16 in Puddletown
1861 – No Robert but living in Piddlehinton
1871 – Robert 35 living at The Bourne
1881 – Robert 44 living at Ilsington (at least 10 children)
1891 – Robert 54 living at Chinehill ???
1901 – Robert 66 living in Puddletown (New Street ???)
1907 – Robert 71 died Weymouth buried Puddletown

That was fun ......

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 04:09 PM

Nice one, Tim.

Dick, agreeing with most of what you say, whether singer song writer material or traditional, only the best will shine through and survive. Though a rider to that is fashions do come and go.

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 04:37 PM

Roberts was his christian name it was called piddletown because the river piddle ran through it and Roberts Barrett of Piddletown

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 04:40 PM

sorry robert barrett collected in 1905?

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 06:52 PM

Yes 1905 one of the first singers, visited by the Hammonds, who had a large repertoire (the very first was William Bartlett).
The Roberts Barratt, name is in fact a misprint, in 'A Dorset Book of Folk Songs' by Biddy Kindersley and Joan Brocklebank.
Both women visited Barratt's grandson who in 1965 was living in Puddletown. He talked of his grandfather, being a very religious man who sang a lot at his work.
I did meet the Barratt family in 1985, however they had no memories of Robert. If you take a look at Hammond's song notation on line, you will find that Robert Barratt seemed to start numerous, songs with a lively cry of Yo! that found it's way into the Brocklebank Kindersley book. I'm afraid my opinion it is much more likely that it was Mr. Barratt trying to draw in enough air to sing, and being in more than a bit of discomfort. Take a look at the Full English and see what you think. (Link below)

https://youtu.be/zc8BMK4EUnY

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 06:59 PM

That was a genuine error, I've linked into something quite different, my workshop at Tenterden. It does concern the Hammond Brothers. I know you won't believe me but it was a mistake. Here's the correct link

https://www.vwml.org/search?q=Robert%20Barratt&collectionfilter=GB;CJS2;CJS1;COL;JHB;AGG;SBG;HAM;GG;MK;FK;CC;RVW1;RVW2;LEB;HHA;T

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: RTim
Date: 11 Dec 20 - 11:09 PM

One of the problems with tracing people in the UK census system is to ensure you have the name you are searching correct. Barratt or Barrett...it seems that the Census has it one way and the EFDSS has it another.
I know from my own experience when looking for the Blake family in Emery Down in the New Forest...I lost a thread when the census incorrectly changed the name from Blake to Bake..the searches went cold. It was only possible to sort this out by looking at details on several different censuses.
I my own family we had a similar problem with the Census enumerator's handwriting that was so bad that it turned Radford into Ratford when it was digitized for at least one census - it took awhile to work that out...

So in the case of Robert Barrett...we know enough to know that the EFDSS records are - IMHO - wrong.....his name was BARRETT.....Do we need change this?

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 03:50 AM

where is Derek when we need him ,playing with his dominos?

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: MartinNail
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 08:55 AM

Tim

For simple factual corrections to the VWML site, all it needs is for someone to email the Library with the information.

However, the position with such things as performers' names is a bit more complicated. The cataloguing starts from the documents being catalogued, so if the collector records a name as 'Barratt', then that is how in will appear in the Performer field. Cataloguers generally have neither the time nor the knowledge to go behind the information as given the document and check on its accuracy -- and as you've demonstrated it can require quite an bit of research to establish the truth. You'll find the same is true of the Roud indexes -- Steve records names etc as he finds them in the sources, and the same name can appear in many variant forms.

That said, I would agree that there needs to be a system whereby corrections like this can be added to the record. Maybe the correct name could be added in square brackets, and a note put in the record citing the source for the information. I could suggest this to the VWML (I only work there as a volunteer, so I can't speak for them).

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 11:59 AM

I have his death certificate and his name was Barratt.

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 12:13 PM

Robert Barratt

Subject: RE: The old man could only whisper the songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 12:36 PM

the song, is apparently 420 years old