Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles

Subject: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 09:32 AM

I never feel all that enthusiastic about chorus or refrain lines of the 'fol rol a diddle I day' type. 'Fifty naw me nonny' etc.

I sing a few but it's not really my thing. Can anyone think of any (stock) phrases that work as good 'fiddle diddle' replacements? An example might be 'all through the livelong day', say.

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 09:37 AM

"Heemo hi-mo, keemo ky-mo, rolly, rolly, ray
Rock strop penny winkle flanna doodle yella booger
Rock strop by Mr. Gamble"

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 09:51 AM

Something tells me this thread may well end up providing me with a glut of the stuff I want shot of...

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 09:51 AM

Kick a Tory in the teeth right now.

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 09:55 AM

Lists might work. If it's a protest song you could find politicians who scan. Sportsmen, pop or folksingers, towns. Rustic love songs, plant names. Sea shanties, shipping forecast areas or lighthouses.

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 10:06 AM

trumpety trumpety trumpety trumpety trump trump, for the german musicianer folde rol fol de rol folde rol lasddie
you might have the audience laughing too

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 10:12 AM

for the rambling irishman you could sing o de velera develeer o dvelera dev dev

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 10:23 AM

or for the german musicianer he fiddled with his diddle and he diddled with his fiddle

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: Lurcherman
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 10:29 AM

How about taking a line from Trumps pastoral advisor and speak in tongues...I’ll get my coat!

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 10:40 AM

Seriously now, some vocables as found in Scottish Gaelic song could be good.

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: Jos
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 11:02 AM

Or just hum suggestively ...

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: meself
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 11:23 AM

I don't have anything helpful for you - but I sympathize. For some reason, though - or, probably, for no good reason whatsoever - that stuff bugs me more in pop songs - I was listening to Donovan do Catch the Wind the other day; I'd forgotten about the "la, la, la" bridge; my thought was - why didn't he make up some words there, did he just run out of steam? But I'm sure that's someone else's favourite part, so, what can ya do? What I do in pop songs, usually, is to play the vocables part on harmonica, but in the older folk songs, they almost seem an essential part of the lyric. Good luck ... !

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 12:59 PM

Personally, I don't have a problem with the Fol Rol Riddle refrains mainly because the source singers I learned them from used them, but I agree that you should not sing them if they make you feel awkward but you might otherwise really like the song and want to sing it.
One solution, and I seem to remember that you are a guitarist, Matt, would be to play the refrain as an instrumental.
After all, that is what Shirley Collins & Davey Graham are doing here.

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 01:52 PM

Vic, playing an instrumental is all well and good , but it misses the point of chorus singing that it is participatory, a good performer like Roy Harris managed to get vast numbers of audience joining in, there is[as you know] a dynamic and power in a lot of people all singing together., this is not the same with one person playing an instrumental

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 02:30 PM

select some words or phrases from the earlier lyrics
la la
fa la
hum
whistle
small instrumental solo

I know what you mean. I cringe at "twiddle dee dee dee" in Mockingbird Hill. And when I play 'Buttermilk Hill' on my dulcimer, I substitute an entire improvised verse for the nonsense in the Peter, Paul and Mary version. Bibba bibba boo - give me a break.

But perhaps you want to keep the vocables for some reason. We all know that some syllables are more twee than others. Feel free to change those you don't like to something else.

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 21 - 03:33 PM

Matt if you could be s[peciofic and name a song, with its fol de rol phrase i might be able to suggest a serious alternative

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 06:50 AM

Thanks. This was actually prompted by having been going through the Marrow Bones/Southern Songster/Southern Harvest/Wanton Seed books over Christmas, and learning a few of the songs.

One was T'owd Yowe Wi' One Horn: I just feel stupid singing '50 naw me nonny'! The other refrain line that it rhymes with - 'so turn the wheel round so bonny' - makes me think of cycles and seasons and weather and years so I've been trying to come up something along that theme ('sunny' would rhyme of course...)

Also been trying out Giles Scroggins' Ghost recently. "Giles Scroggin courted Molly Brown/ Fol de riddle lol, Fol de riddle lido.." Though I don't mind as much with that one as it's more of a novelty piece, much more music-hall. It works quite well with the refrain line taken out, so it's optional.

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 08:29 AM

There was an owd yowe wi' only one horn,
Fifty naw me nonny!
And she picked up her living among the green corn,
So turn the wheel round so bonny!

One day said the pindar to his man,
Oh dear, Johnny!
I prithee go pen that owd yowe if tha can.
So turn the wheel round so bonny!

So off went the man to pen this owd yowe,
Fifty naw me nonny !
She knocked him three times among the green corn,
So turn the wheel round so bonny!

Then the butcher was sent for to take this yowe's life,
Fifty naw me nonny !
And along come the butcher a-whetting his knife,
So turn the wheel round so bonny!

The owd yowe she started a-whetting her pegs,
Fifty naw me nonny!
She run at the butcher and broke both his legs,
So turn the wheel round so bonny!

This owd yowe was sent to fight for the king,
Fifty naw me nonny!
She killed horsemen and footmen just as they came in,
So turn the wheel round so bonny!
you could sub with in every verse, o Dear Johnny for fifty nawme nonny and
so sing up good folks so bonny

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 01:38 AM

i personally would not change stuff unless it was racist etc. Or had an awkward rhyme or rhythm..like come to your life like a warrior..nothing can bore yer..could anything worse have ever been written?? anyway, I read in an old Scots magazine about these supposedly nonsense phrases. Author claimed they were remnants of old druid chants and he gave very convincing examples..like it might mean we hail the sun or something..

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 05:14 AM

Lumpy, dumpy, grumpy Oh.

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 06:15 AM

Thanks OP for raising this.

In Nutting Girl, instead of "whack fother dear oh day" (or whatever it is) I like "wait for the dear all day", which relates to the notion of the girl staying out too late. But I don't have an alternative for the "My fal ral" part.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the extensive "tooralye" etc in The Wallaby Track, but it's needed to lead into the "plenty of tooralye" in the last verse.

Almost anything is preferable to the "la la la" that we were taught at school.

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 06:54 AM

I've got an uncle called Ronnie?

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 08:52 AM

Thanks to all above. Glad it's not just me!

I recently tried singing The Grumbling Farmers and that has a whole chorus of 'fiddle faddle wack fol diddle daddle' or whatever it is, which I can't bring myself to do. John Kirkpatrick clearly is a better man than me (the only version of this song I've ever heard).

Thing is, I'm perfectly happy to hear other singers that I admire and respect sing this stuff.

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 10:59 AM

Hey Donny Donny No

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: meself
Date: 28 Jan 21 - 11:28 AM

Sometimes with that stuff, I channel my inner Shane MacGowan, so it comes out sounding like cursing. But that doesn't fit in with everyone's singing style.

(Pierre Trudeau was once accused of swearing in Parliament; he claimed he had said, "Fuddle-duddle" - which became kind of a meme in Canada for a few years.)

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: BobL
Date: 29 Jan 21 - 03:12 AM

The ability to invent a good string of nonsense words is an underrated art. If there were nothing to them, how come they survived the Folk Process unscathed?

Subject: RE: Replacement phrases for fol rol diddles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 21 - 11:47 AM

Mouth music