What happened to Cumbrian folk music?

Subject: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,John Robinson
Date: 26 May 21 - 10:27 AM

It occurred to me to ask this here, because it's something which bothers me a little. Northern England has an extremely rich folk tradition and I don't, for example, need to look further than Lancashire, the North East or Northumberland for a plethora of great songs and tunes. But what happened to Cumbria?

I'm ancestrally Cumbrian, but I usually live in Birmingham these days. Cumbria is steeped in centuries of mythology, and I never met a Cumbrian who was short of a good story! But where are all the folk songs? I don't count 'D'ye ken John Peel?', because it's been done to death.

If you're wondering why I've asked this question, it's because I sing a bit myself at informal pub sessions - or I did before you know what came along - and I'd like to learn some songs from the old country, but I'm struggling to find any good ones.

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 21 - 10:42 AM

how about "the widow of westmorlands daughter , close county. or the recruited collier only ever collected in workington

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: DebC
Date: 26 May 21 - 10:44 AM

Hi John,

Talk to Gordon Jones, one of the founders of Silly Wizard. He has made his home in Ulverston for many years and he and several other musicians have been researching tunes that were collected in Cumbria. He is also the mover and shaker of Furness Tradition and can be contacted through the website.

Cheers,
Deb Cowan

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 26 May 21 - 10:51 AM

John try this,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKm8KcNpxd0

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 26 May 21 - 10:53 AM

'Dinogad's Coat' is a 6th-century lullaby from Cumbria.

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 26 May 21 - 11:21 AM

John, are you looking only for songs that came into being in Allerdale, Barrow-in-Furness, Carlisle, Copeland, Eden and South Lakeland ??

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 26 May 21 - 11:29 AM

The Boat Band did an album of Cumberland music.

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 21 - 11:54 AM

Thanks for your replies, it's all useful stuff! To answer a couple of questions, I'll settle for anything broadly Cumbrian, by which I mean, 'near enough' to the borders, though most of my dad's family come from Carlisle, and before that the area around Maryport. I sing 'Joe Peel': a mining song which I think most of you will know - that's set in Workington.

Cheers Deb - my great granddad was born in Ulverston, so that sounds like a great idea. Maybe I need to dig a bit more, but I've struggled to find anything which really resonates. I like a contemporary song called 'King of Dunmail Raise' by Mike Turnbull, which I think would sound great on a mandola.

Songs from the Furness Peninsula are also very interesting, as my mum had a long association with that area, so I'm very curious about the music from that region.

Cheers! John

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 26 May 21 - 11:59 AM

https://1library.net/document/q2nkmjjq-folk-song-in-cumbria-a-distinctive-regional-repertoire.html

That doctoral thesis may be helpful.

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 May 21 - 01:31 PM

joe peel written by peter bond from miln row lancashire very good song.
how about the song written about the morecambe bay sands tragedy

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 26 May 21 - 03:22 PM

The Lake District had the last 'non revival' folk tradition in England, unfortunately in was based around foxhunting and the foot packs. The song words can be found in the ' Songs of the Fell Packs' booklet.

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 26 May 21 - 04:00 PM

Paul and Linda Adams (Fellside Records) and the Ellen Valley Band recorded the few Cumbrian folksongs that survived -excepting the hunting and cockfighting ones

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 26 May 21 - 04:33 PM

Search YouTube using

Paul and Linda Adams, far over the fell

Four of the songs are there--good vocals and guitar work on one I sampled.

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 26 May 21 - 05:32 PM

Let's give credit to the author of the doctoral thesis mentioned by Guest.# above. Sue Allan. Sue has also written several scholarly articles as well as a book, The Cumberland Bard: Robert Anderson and Carlisle.

There's also the Veteran CD Pass the Jug Round, with field recordings from the 1950s, recorded in Cumbria.

Derek

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 27 May 21 - 02:28 AM

Surely some of the Border Ballads would be Cumbrian in origin? Thinking for one example "Bewick And Graeme" though I know it was first published in Scott's "Minstrelsy".

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 21 - 04:22 AM

Hi all - great replies. I have some catching up to do! I've toyed with the idea of singing 'Witch of the Westmorland' by Archie Fisher, but the faux Arthurian themes stick in my throat a bit. I'm also wary of singing hunting songs to folk aficionados, for fear of dying an ironic death at the hands of outraged vegetarians. ;)

I'll read Sue's doctoral thesis - or I might just skip to the conclusion, which is a sneaky time-saving trick I learned as a student. I like the idea of a song centred on Morecambe Bay - I suppose what I'm looking for is something to make my own, so I might have to resort to writing it myself. Oh no - work!

Paul and Linda Adams sound interesting. I think a lot of Border Ballads might have Cumbrian roots - in fact, I feel strangely drawn to them. I have a few Armstrongs in my family tree, so I might try singing 'Johnnie Armstrong'.

Cheers - John

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 27 May 21 - 08:46 AM

When I used to travel over from Tyneside in the early to mid 60s to walk & climb in the Lake District, there were excellent revival type sessions in the Lamplighter Cafe in Keswick, with frequent visits from climber folkies from all over. Also a great piano player in the ?Crown pub next to the bus station.
not your idea of folk music maybe, but it suited me!

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson
Date: 27 May 21 - 09:13 AM

The CD "Treading The Marches" by Devils Water released in 2017 includes Cumbrian material. It received positive reviews in the folk press.

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: MartinNail
Date: 30 May 21 - 09:24 AM

Try searching the VWML digital archive and the Roud indexes on the VWML site: VWML. The indexes use historic county names and using the advance search facility to search on Cumberland OR Westmorland gives 675 results. The only way of searching for places in Lancashire North of the Sands is to search for places like Barrow or Ulverston individually.

Or you can use the map search. Click on the map on the library home page and zoom into Cumbria. Places where songs were collected are marked by red pins. You'll need to be very patient as it takes a long time to download all the information.

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 May 21 - 09:46 AM

Yan tan tethera...

And Felix Burns (composer of a lot of tunes popular in the accordion/fiddle scene) was a bandmaster in Carlisle.

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 04:08 PM

Gosh. Just found this. Thank you to those pointing out my thesis.

SONGS: Yes do download my thesis on Cumbrian folk songs and have a read. Link here:
https://www.academia.edu/32901994/FOLK_SONG_IN_CUMBRIA_A_DISTINCTIVE_REGIONAL_REPERTOIRE
the appendix lists

Or perhaps Mary Emmet's thesis on hunting songs:
https://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/29320/

In my thesis, by all means just skip to conclusions, if you must, but do take a look at the Appendix, which lists some 500 songs.
There are some Border Ballads there, some set in Carlisle and environs, but do bear in mind that these are very much a literary tradition, and almost all edited or re-written by Sir Walter Scott. For recordings, yes, there are old Paul and Linda Adams recordings and some other Fellside recordings, more recent recordings by Striding Edge, Steve Wharton and Dave Camlin, but also seek out 'Pass the Jug Round' - recordings made in two pubs in the Carlisle area in 1953 (download available from Veteran)- and check out the British Library's Sound Library, where you'll certainly find some hunting songs. Peter Kennedy also recorded in Cumberland and Westmorland in 1958/9.

TUNES: And when it comes to Lakeland tunes - well, there are more than anyone could get to grips with in a lifetime! Commercial recordings by The Boat Band, Striding Edge and the Lakeland Fiddler, and many, many transcriptions (score, ABC and midi) of the manuscripts of the many late eighteenth and early to mid nineteenth century Lakeland fiddlers (and flautists) are given on the Village Music website. https://www.village-music-project.org.uk/?page_id=84

DANCES: many of the country's clog/step dance teams perform Lakeland clog and step dances. And many ceilidhs feature eg Cumberland Square Eight, Cumberland Reel, Westmorland Cottagers etc as social dances.
No Cumbrian folk music? You must be joking!!

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 04:24 PM

I have a copy of The Boat Band's "A trip to the Lakes" in MP3 format if anyone is interested. Just get in touch and send Greg a donation!

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 04:55 PM

Yes Dave, Boat Band's 'Trip to the Lakes' has some great arrangements of Lakeland tunes - and a couple of songs too.

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 05:14 PM

I'm sure Greg once told me he was from or spent a lot of time in the lake district peninsulas. Either Silecroft or Kirksanton. Last time I wax up there I wax saddened to see the King Billy was no longer in existence:-(

Subject: RE: What happened to Cumbrian folk music?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 23 - 03:02 AM

wax=was twice!

And for those not in the know, the King Billy is the King William IV pub and I'm glad to say that on checking it seems to have reopened:-)