Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma

Subject: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:47 AM

Thread #170988   Message #4135680
Posted By: GUEST,Mike Yates
07-Feb-22 - 07:36 AM
Thread Name: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma (closed)
Subject: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma

...In Britain (and much of Europe) Gypsies and Travellers have played one of the most important roles in the transmission and preservation of folk song and folk music. Over the years some of our greatest singers have come from these groups.

In Scotland we had Jeannie Robertson (once called ‘The World’s Greatest Folk Singer’ by an American record label), Stanley Robertson, Georgie Robertson, Bella Higgins, Charlotte Higgins, the extended Stewart Family, Betsy Whyte, Duncan Williamson (who, along with his numerous songs and ballads, recorded some 700 folktales for future generations to hear), along with dozens of other singers whose work can be heard in the School of Scottish Studies at Edinburgh University. In England there was Carolyne Hughes, Mary Ann Haynes, May Bradley, Phoebe Smith, Charlie Scamp, Jasper & Levi Smith, the Willett Family and the Brazil Family. This is but a small selection. Welsh Gypsies gave us many superb musicians, while Irish Travellers also offers us musicians, singers and story-tellers aplenty, most notably John Reilly who became famed for his ballad of ‘The Well Below the Valley’.

But there is also a downside to this. John Reilly, a relatively young man when he was discovered by the folk music world, was close to death. A situation brought about by the life that he had been forced to lead. This was not a situation only to be found in Ireland. I remember Sheila Stewart telling me that when her mother was born, householders would not help, and her mother was actually born in the only available place, namely a stable. Not the first time that a stable had been used, of course.

It should come as no surprise when I say that many folk people in Britain and Ireland have befriended Gypsies and Travellers. Gypsies and Travellers have been subjected to many forms of abuse over the years and we have often tried to help on their behalf. Nick Dow has worked tirelessly on behalf of Gypsy rights (as well as producing a book of songs collected from Gypsy singers – this is ‘’A Secret Stream’). Jim Carroll worked with Irish Travellers who were struggling to survive in London. I have worked with Gypsies in Kent and Surrey, trying to help improve their lives. And, of course, Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger worked with Travellers to produce their radio ballad ‘The Travelling People’, which dealt with the injustices that Travellers still suffer. In Scotland Hamish Henderson took on board the cause of the Travelling people as did another collector, Tom Munnelly, in Ireland.

If I may repeat myself. The Gypsy and Travelling communities stand well and truly in the centre of the British and Irish folk song and folk music world and when they are so blatantly attacked is it little wonder that so many folk people wish to stand alongside them?

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Brian Peters
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 12:16 PM

Mike's opening post here is an excellent summary of why Gypsies and Travellers are held in great respect and affection by many of us on the folk scene. To his list I would add Vic and Viv Legg, the Orchard Family and Thomas McCarthy, all of whom I think of as friends as well as great singers and musicians. It was a proud moment, having spent most of the day in the Kings Arms at South Zeal sharing music with the Orchards, when Tommy clapped me on the back and said, 'You're one of us now, boy!'

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Brian Peters
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 12:18 PM

Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger's work with Gypsies and Travellers in England and Scotland, resulting in some wonderful recordings and a fine book, is some of their finest work in my view.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Tony Rees
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 01:54 PM

Then of course there is the whole domain of European gypsy music and Gypsy Jazz, which some of us are also into, again often produced by persons in marginalised and/or persecuted communities that exist to this day... I can recommend Michael Dregni's 2010 book "Gypsy Jazz: In Search of Django Reinhardt and the Soul of Gypsy Swing" as an excellent primer and part social history....

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 02:59 PM

Try Tatiana Eva Marie and the Avalon Jazz Band. She has Gypsy roots and looks remarkably like my wife when she was young.
Now I have had time to reflect, this whole business has reminded me of the end of MacColl's radio ballad 'The Travelling People. We were treated to Justice of the Peace Harry Whatton suggesting that Travellers should be exterminated. I thought we had moved on to more enlightened and empathetic times. Wrong again it seems, judging by the burst of Racism against Bolton FC today. I am trying very very hard not to be a disillusioned old man. I still believe Folk Music can only do good where ever it is heard, especially when I hear the Gypsy Folk sing.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 03:46 PM

The Radio Ballad ending was the first thing that came to mind for me when I heard about Carr's disgusting remark. MacColl and Parker must have discouraged a lot of that crap, but obviously not enough.

For a positive inspiration, look at Govanhill in Glasgow. The Roma refugees from Slovakia who settled there have integrated well. Dunno if anybody has made any musical connections there but if not, they ought to.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 03:51 PM

Let's hope so Jack.

Subject: Songs from: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 04:44 AM

If I may repeat myself. The Gypsy and Travelling communities stand well and truly in the centre of the British and Irish folk song and folk music world and when they are so blatantly attacked is it little wonder that so many folk people wish to stand alongside them?

Perhaps the ‘moderator’ is an American and unaware of these feelings within the British/Irish folk scene. I am old enough to remember that, over the years, many American folk enthusiasts took up the cause of the dispossessed. Alan Lomax, Pete Seeger, Irwin Silber and the staff of ‘Sing Out’ magazine were always at the forefront of protests, whenever they were needed.

Joe, perhaps we should hear from a Gypsy. Here is the text to a song that Derby Smith sang to me in the 1970's:

Tonight as I stay by the roadside,
Just watching those Travellers go by;
Thinking what will become of those Travellers
Whenever their time comes to die.

There's a Master up yonder in Heaven,
Got a place that we might call our home.
But will we have to work for a living,
Or shall we continue to roam?

Will there be an Travellers in Heaven?
Any places at which we might stay?
Will there be an gavvers or Councils,
To move our old trailers away?

His tune, if you haven't already figured it our, is taken from a 1930's Jimmie Rodgers song.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 05:41 AM

Don't know what happened, but the following verses should be added:
Joe, perhaps we should hear from a Gypsy. Here is the text to a song that Derby Smith sang to me in the 1970's:

Tonight as I stay by the roadside,
Just watching those Travellers go by;
Thinking what will become of those Travellers
Whenever their time comes to die.

There's a Master up yonder in Heaven,
Got a place that we might call our home.
But will we have to work for a living,
Or shall we continue to roam?

Will there be an Travellers in Heaven?
Any places at which we might stay?
Will there be an gavvers or Councils,
To move our old trailers away?

Will the gorgios join with the Travellers?
Will we always have money to spend?
Will they have some respect for those Gypsies
In a land that lies hidden up there?

Will there be any Travellers in Heaven?
Any pubs where we might get some beer?
Will there be the same old landlords
Who say, 'Sorry, no Gypsies served here.'?

Will the Travellers have to keep roaming?
Will we have to keep roaming around?
I'm so tired of roaming this country
I'd rather be under the ground.

His tune, if you haven't already figured it our, is taken from a 1930's Jimmie Rodgers song.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 05:54 AM

Here's another song, 'Closing Our Camping Grounds Down', written by the great Scottish Traveller Duncan Williamson. This song, together with 'Will There be any Travellers in Heaven?' express what is happening far better than I can.

Oh come all you hawkers, you men of the road,
You hawkers who wander around.
My story it is sad, it will sadden your heart,
For they are closing our camping grounds down.

Though we fought for our country and we fought for our king,
And some gave their life for this land.
It's out there in Dunkirk, its many that fell,
With their blood mixed up with the sand.

But what did they fight for and why did they die?
Just for freedom to wander around.
But where can we wander? We have no place to go,
For they've closed all our camping grounds down.

'Oh', they say, 'You're not wanted, just keep moving on'.
Though it be rain or be snow.
But where can we move to when you move along?
For you have got nowhere to go.

So come listen to me, boys, if another war it comes,
Just you keep moving around.
You have nothing to fight for, you have no house nor home,
And they've closed all your camping grounds down.

But maybe some day when you're gone from this world,
And you're buried deep down in the ground.
Will God make you welcome, will he give you a home?
Or will he tell you to keep moving on?

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 12:36 PM

Here's some music:

The complete recordings of Johnny Doran recorded in 1947. A wall fell on his caravan while camped in Dublin soon after this, broke his back and he never played again.

Here's fiddler John Kelly talking about how the recording came to be.

The recordings have since been remaster54ed, cleaned up and put out on CD. Members of the extended Doran family are still involved in piping.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 01:13 PM

Hi Peter, thank you for putting the Johnny Doran tracks on here. Pure genius. Like I said, these guys were, and are, at the centre of the folk music world.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 01:58 PM

There are very few places in the UK where source singers still exist. As Nick can attest, and Gwilym and Sam Lee and others, there are pockets of Travellers who are keeping these old songs we treasure alive, and indeed a whole interesting culture related to music. I've seen plenty of threads here that are blatantly nothing to do with folk so I know where my preferences lie. I fully support the work of Mike, Nick, Gwilym and others who are working hard to document this music.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 02:42 PM

Thanks Steve.

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 10:04 PM

This is a valuable thread.

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 06:45 AM

Photographer Alen McWeeney photographed and collected music and song from travellers camped around Cherry Orchard in Dublin. The photographic work is beautiful and there is a Book (cds included) and was subject of a lovely documentary during the naughties where McWeeney traced his subjects.

His website has images and recordins. Worth a visit.

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 06:48 AM

I should have added there was an lp at some point as wel with some of the material McWeeney recorded.

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Brian Peters
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 06:52 AM

I heartily agree about Nick's work, and can thoroughly recommend his presentation on the subject.

Nick, has your book been reprinted yet? When I tried to order it was out of print.

I understand the efforts the mods have made to emphasise that this is indeed a music thread, but as a result of the re-ordering of posts mine has floated to the top although it refers back to the one by Mike Yates that was the OP.

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 10:07 AM

I'll add a few more bits and pieces, to bring them together in the one thread.

Here is another member of the extended Doran family, the late John Rooney.

Rooney was married to a daughter of Felix Doran and is very close to Felix's style of playing. There was an lp of Felix's playing, recorded at Keele. Some bits and pieces of his music were recently rediscovered and released on cd. Felix was Johnny's brother.

The Keenans and the Fureys are other well-known pipers with a traveller background.

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 10:38 AM

and the Dunnes.

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 11:08 AM

Sorry about omitting Mickey Dunne although I am not sure there were (m)any other pipers before him in that family. But, you are right, a great family for music. The Raineys probably should get a mention there for their music and song, at least one piper there too: Tony Rainey was active around the middle of the last century. I remember Martin Rochford mentioning him as his inspiration to take up the pipes after hearing him play in the square in Ennis during the forties.

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 12:12 PM

Margaret Barry

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 01:46 PM

Anyone interested in the history of harp playing in Wales will already know of the Teulu Abram Wood, a Kalé family who travelled North Wales, especially John Roberts of Newtown and his extended family. They kept Welsh folk music alive during many decades of attempted bans by the Methodist establishment.

http://www.valleystream.co.uk/romany-roberts.htm

http://www.valleystream.co.uk/romany-roberts-2.htm

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 01:47 PM

More links:

https://newtown.org.uk/discover-newtown/newtown-heritage-trail/john-roberts

https://archives.library.wales/index.php/john-roberts-telynor-cymru-papers-2

Cymraeg and English: http://www.telynor.cymru/en/hanes.php

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 01:48 PM

For a more general overview see 8.0 Language and Music in this download:

http://www.romaniarts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Beyond-the-Stereotypes.pdf

This musical history from North Wales extends to the present day and people such as singer-songwriter Bob Lovell, who was the first of his family born in New Zealand.

http://www.romaniarts.co.uk/bob-lovell-singer-songwriter-recording-artist-social-activist/

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 09 Feb 22 - 01:49 PM

Lastly, some more contemporary musicians:

http://www.welshkale.com/contributors

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 10 Feb 22 - 03:30 AM

A pdf of the booklet that accompanies the CD Boshamengro - English Gypsy Musicians - is here:

Boshamengro

I play for a Molly dancing side and the information about the relationship between the Gypsy fiddlers and Molly dancers is fascinating to me.

LFF

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 22 - 04:04 AM

quote from wiki
In the early 1950s, she moved to London, originally to appear on a TV series called The Songhunter, produced by a young David Attenborough. Attenborough described in recent years how Barry’s striking wild, toothless appearance and her out-of-tune banjo playing prompted a volley of angry complaints about Irish tinkers being allowed on the TV

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Barry

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Feb 22 - 05:19 AM

The Bedford in Balham was one of Attenborough's first expeditions.

He always looked for folk music on his future trips.

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Feb 22 - 11:39 AM

Thursday 10 February BBC Radio 4 4pm Poetry Please

Growing up with a grandfather who wore gold sovereign rings and took her to the Appleby Horse Fair Jo Clement absorbed the Romany traditions he showed her. Her poetry addresses life for a marginalised people from the Traveller girls used for a fashion shoot to the gatherings and customs of Gypsy people.

Jo is Editor of Butcher's Dog Poetry Magazine and her first collection of poems Outlandish is published this year by Bloodaxe. Among her choices of poetry requests are John Clare's To The Snipe, Preface from Swims by Elizabeth Jane Burnett and Nightingales by fellow Romany poet David Morley.

It finished with Queen Caroline Hughes singing Sheep Crook and Black Dog.

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 20 Feb 22 - 09:38 AM

Welsh triple harp is the only Celtic triple harp with an unbroken playing tradition. It was kept alive, as I mentioned above, by the Teulu Abram Wood, a Kalé family who travelled North Wales.

This is an 8 minute demonstration video of Robin Huw Bowen, who directly inherited this living tradition, which amply demonstrates what could have disappeared without the determination, skill, and generosity of travelling folk :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1-yO8lVq7A

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: sian, west wales
Date: 20 Feb 22 - 11:34 AM

Just thought I'd make the URL of Robin Huw Bowen from Diolch, above, into a blue-clicky.

trac also organized a week of work with a Roma school unit in Pembrokeshire with Robin, Huw Williams, and Ida Kelarova, a Czech Roma jazz/trad singer - this was about 11 or 12 years ago. The kids were all well aware of the Roma role in saving so much of Welsh trad music and many of them were of the Woods and Roberts families. It was a really great week. Robin & Huw texted me for several weeks thereafter asking, "please, can we go again?"

s, ww