Gypsies, Travelers, Roma (closed)

Subject: Gypsy songs by McColl + others - result?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Feb 22 - 05:06 AM

Jimmy Carr and a racist joke. Have we been wasting our breath and talents? I sometimes wonder. Maybe I need to lower my expectations, preferably missing the gutter and Carr. Sorry for the negativity, no doubt I'll get over it. Shall I send him a copy of 'A Secret Stream', or just hope he drowns in it?

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Note from Joe Offer: I moved this from a thread another moderator deleted, to show everyone what we're talking about. This was the initial post in the thread.

Subject: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 07:36 AM

A few days ago Nick Dow opened a thread about a ‘comedian’ who had told a most appalling ‘joke’ about Gypsies. This joke has been condemned by numerous people and organizations in Britain. But, the thread was removed, presumably by one of the ‘moderators’ who run Mudcat. I am inviting the ‘moderator’ to offer his/her reasons behind their actions. But, firstly, they may like to consider the following points.

In Britain (and much of Europe) Gypsies and Travellers have played one of the most important roles in the transmission and preservation of folk song and folk music. Over the years some of our greatest singers have come from these groups.

In Scotland we had Jeannie Robertson (once called ‘The World’s Greatest Folk Singer’ by an American record label), Stanley Robertson, Georgie Robertson, Bella Higgins, Charlotte Higgins, the extended Stewart Family, Betsy Whyte, Duncan Williamson (who, along with his numerous songs and ballads, recorded some 700 folktales for future generations to hear), along with dozens of other singers whose work can be heard in the School of Scottish Studies at Edinburgh University. In England there was Carolyne Hughes, Mary Ann Haynes, May Bradley, Phoebe Smith, Charlie Scamp, Jasper & Levi Smith, the Willett Family and the Brazil Family. This is but a small selection. Welsh Gypsies gave us many superb musicians, while Irish Travellers also offers us musicians, singers and story-tellers aplenty, most notably John Reilly who became famed for his ballad of ‘The Well Below the Valley’.

But there is also a downside to this. John Reilly, a relatively young man when he was discovered by the folk music world, was close to death. A situation brought about by the life that he had been forced to lead. This was not a situation only to be found in Ireland. I remember Sheila Stewart telling me that when her mother was born, householders would not help, and her mother was actually born in the only available place, namely a stable. Not the first time that a stable had been used, of course.

It should come as no surprise when I say that many folk people in Britain and Ireland have befriended Gypsies and Travellers. Gypsies and Travellers have been subjected to many forms of abuse over the years and we have often tried to help on their behalf. Nick Dow has worked tirelessly on behalf of Gypsy rights (as well as producing a book of songs collected from Gypsy singers – this is ‘’A Secret Stream’). Jim Carroll (now banned from Mudcat?) worked with Irish Travellers who were struggling to survive in London. I have worked with Gypsies in Kent and Surrey, trying to help improve their lives. And, of course, Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger worked with Travellers to produce their radio ballad ‘The Travelling People’, which dealt with the injustices that Travellers still suffer. In Scotland Hamish Henderson took on board the cause of the Travelling people as did another collector, Tom Munnelly, in Ireland.

If I may repeat myself. The Gypsy and Travelling communities stand well and truly in the centre of the British and Irish folk song and folk music world and when they are so blatantly attacked is it little wonder that so many folk people wish to stand alongside them?

Perhaps the ‘moderator’ is an American and unaware of these feelings within the British/Irish folk scene. I am old enough to remember that, over the years, many American folk enthusiasts took up the cause of the dispossessed. Alan Lomax, Pete Seeger, Irwin Silber and the staff of ‘Sing Out’ magazine were always at the forefront of protests, whenever they were needed.

So why did you remove the thread? I hope that you can give me a reasoned answer, and not just some comment that it had nothing to do with folk music. Or is it that, unlike Lomax, Seeger and Silber you don’t have the guts to stand up to racism and oppression?

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 08:06 AM

I suspect that it became a target for racists and, as it was above the line, was hit by a flurry of anonymous hate posts. Just like this one is likely to unless it is moved below the line.

Just my opinion of course.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 08:06 AM

It's because they don't like the mention of anyone other than Jews being killed by the nazis!!!

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 08:34 AM

The thread title said it was about MacColl, but the thread itself was about being offended by a comedian. An attempt by a guest to start a BS fight in the music section. If this one goes that way, it's doomed as well - Bonzo and Dave.

Let's keep it about music.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 08:34 AM

I didn't see the previous thread but, judging by an early hostile comment on a recent Waterson thread, I suspect Dave the Gnome is correct.

I personally have learned songs, and singing techniques, not only from the Watersons but also from singers such as Phoebe Smith and Mary Ann Haynes and, most recently, Maggie Stewart (and her son who helped keep her songwriting legacy alive). I'm extremely grateful for the generosity travelling singers and musicians have shown towards settled folkies and heartily wish we return them the same.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 09:22 AM

yes, ,my great grandmother was from a travelling family and played fiidle music, which has been passed down our family on one side.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 09:30 AM

I will admit I was puzzled and more than a bit annoyed that the thread had been removed. I was aware that the Carr joke was not directly relevant to Folk Song, and hence my mention of MacColl and others who have written songs and collected from Gypsy Folk.
In retrospect it was a knee jerk reaction, and a bit ham fisted. I am more than grateful to Mike for his erudite posting above, which crystallises the thoughts that I had banging around in my head. It must have taken some time to type. Thanks Mike.
I am busy gilding a flat cart for a Romany Gypsy family in Blackpool, and I will be there tomorrow. I will see what is said if anything, and report back, providing the thread is still active!

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 10:04 AM

If you get anywhere near a "troll" topic, people will drop everything else to join in that fight.

Nick, other than mentioning songs and McColl in your thread title (only), it had nothing to do with music.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 10:32 AM

Yes Jeri, Mike has put it much better than I did, as I have already said. The 'Joke' was an unforgiveable attack on my wife and my best friend and his family. Forgive me for being a bit over emotional and suffering from brain fog when I started the original thread, if you would be so kind.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 10:43 AM

The problem with using a guest login, Nick, is that you can only post above the line, meaning that the topic has to be about music. The other issue is that anonymous trolls then also have access and anything remotely controversial will attract a fair few of those. Sadly :-( I can see that your original post was well meant and, if I remember rightly, you were implying that the work of artists, like MacColl and others, who write about the plight of travelling folk was wasted if people like Carr are still making light of it.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Helen
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 11:05 AM

I opened the other thread and there was a very sparse title and comment which was confusing. The reference to MacColl was not explained. I couldn't really get what the thread was about, even with the two other comments I read in it.

Not having heard the offensive comment by the comedian, and then trying to decipher the intention of the thread from the sparse information made it difficult to interpret. That type of thread does invite short, sharp replies unfortunately. I think that it helps to make the topic and the intention of the thread clear at the outset so that others know what you are talking about.

Thanks Mike Yates for explaining the issue so clearly. I get it now.

I was told many years ago when I briefly met a couple of my Welsh/English relatives that my maternal Great Grandmother in Wales was from the Travelling People. I never found out more about her and living here in Australia I don't know much about Gypsies, Travellers and Roma but I have read about the discrimination and the poor treatment that they often get.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: meself
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 11:41 AM

When I first started following Mudcat, I was really and unpleasantly surprised by the sort of racist comments about 'Gypsies, Travellers and Roma' some people clearly felt comfortable posting here (and elsewhere, I daresay). Some of these same posters would no doubt have been indignant if the same comments had been made about a different racial minority in, say, a country on the other side of the Atlantic. Fortunately, most of the offenders have (been?) moved on. Still, for a Canadian, it was an eye-opener .....

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Feb 22 - 07:37 PM

I have multiple, upon multiple encounters.

My recent experience comes from France, 1985 - to 2020.

Previous, Southern California, beginning 1962.

They are truly a fascinating and "photographic" people.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I have 1000+ Photos from Paris of the scam, and sharpers and buskers.

The CDC and STATE from the USA declared a "stage four" alert, beginning last Monday.

I will NOT Travel, but will hike unexplored trails.


We will leave this situation, with better understanding.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 01:07 AM

I looked at the deleted thread. It was a non-music thread, with only an ancillary mention of music. It belonged in the non-music section. Non-music Guests are not permitted to start or post to threads in the non-music section that's been our policy for years - and members who are not logged in are considered to be non-members. So it should have been a non-music thread to start off with. There are other restrictions on threads in the non-music section because we had an embarrassing amount of rowdiness there. I'm here for the music, so I stay out of there and I don't understand the restrictions.

And for years, we've had a policy that public posts protesting moderator actions are not allowed. If you want to protest, contact a moderator directly or appeal to Mudcat's owner, Max Spiegel, [e-mail]. So, in reality, THIS thread shouldn't be allowed, either. But since another moderator has already been working this thread, I'll leave it to her to decide what to do with it.
But yeah, the deletion of the previous thread was justified. It was a non-music thread posted by a non-member in the music section.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 04:29 AM

That's all very well Joe. Unfortunately Folk Music, and music generally does not exist in a political or empathetic vacuum. It is a poor musician, Folk singer or Folklorist who is not also part sociologist.
There has been an unwarranted and odious attack upon a race of people who have preserved and carried our tradition song repertoire for generations. An attempt to divorce the prejudice demonstrated from the Gypsy folk and their songs is not only futile, but also undesirable.
Taking the view that this is not relevant, because it has nothing to do with music, does nobody any favours, least of all the Gypsy Folk. Yes there has to be red lines drawn, some may argue that line drawing requires careful thought (and re thinking) before application. I'm sure we can rely upon Mudcat moderators for this.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 11:32 AM

I've just got in from the Marton Moss Gypsy site. (And slowly warming up). . One of my friends suggested that Carr 'got away with it' because he knew he could do. He meant that such is the prejudice against Gypsies, no legislation would be invoked.
His wife was singing 'The Tanyard side', and 'Skibbereen' while we were talking. No one will kill the joy of singing.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 11:47 AM

Joe, if the thread is about music, with some non-music discussion, I'm fine with it.
If it's mostly non-music, with some references to music thrown in as an excuse to keep the thread (as in Nick's post directly above), it's going away.

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My point exactly, except that deletions in the music section should be rare. You and Maggie are too quick with your trigger fingers on the delete button, and that's not acceptable here. The usual practice in the music section is to move messages or close threads.
-Joe Offer-

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I delete very few messages or threads, but it's always nice to get some public criticism. (That's sarcasm, BTW) YOU got this thread, though.

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Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 01:28 PM

The question of the Roma and the Nazis' final solution has been confronted by
Ian Hancock, born in England and teaching in the United States.
For what was done to the Roma by the Nazis,
the Romani language has a word:
"Porrajmos"
-- the devouring.

The Wikipedia article on Dr. Hancock states that this Romani term
was submitted by a Rom during a 1993 conference.
The man who coined the term came from the Roma subgroup
Kalderash, a term originating from the word for Copper-smith.
Predominant subgroup in the Ukraine, Central Europe; also appear in Russia.

Subject: RE: Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 03:04 PM

You're playing games, guys. This thread is closed. I'll move the music posts into places where they fit, and let this thread die. This discussion started out with a post about a comment from a comedian, with the misspelled name of MacColl thrown in as a ruse to justify it. Now you're throwing in songs as a way to game the system.

Nick and Mike, I greatly appreciate your contribution of music information. We had to establish some controls here because the animosity was getting out of hand. We expect you go go along with what we're trying to do. We want Mudcat to be a home for intelligent music discussion, not political squabbles. If you want to talk politics, log into your Mudcat membership and post in the BS section and follow the rules Jeri and SRS have for that section. Certainly there is room for political discussion in the music section as it relates to music, but the original post was about a comment from a comedian. If you want to discuss this any further, talk with me directly and privately or appeal to Max, [e-mail]

-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor-

Subject: RE: Songs from Gypsies, Travelers, Roma
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Feb 22 - 06:58 PM

I regret to say that due to the censorship of the previous post of this name, I must permanently withdraw from Mudcat. Joe Offer has publicly accused me of using MacColl's name a 'ruse' to make a political point, which is blatantly untrue and unfair. Joe has also suggested that my typing error was evidence of my conspiracy, and 'game playing', to add insult to injury, I reported the fact that my friends wife was singing traditional songs (she is a traditional singer). This has also been misrepresented. This is objectionable nonsense.
Certainly I was making a point about the anti Gypsy drivel spoken by an alleged comedian, but I was also referring to MacColl's songs and his work with the Gypsy community, and the saddening lack of effect on the prejudiced.
With this thread you have taken a selection of comments out of context, and placed them in your own thread to your own agenda. This is offensive to me and has crossed MY red line. If you are unable to comprehend that music and the people who make it do not neatly fall into pre-arranged categories for discussion, then I am afraid Mudcat is no place for me.

I'm sorry you think that way, Nick. Every online site has to do something to make things peaceful, to allow peaceful people to conduct intelligent communication. It's never easy, and it's never going to satisfy everyone. But moderators try to do their best. I was once THE moderator of Mudcat, but people complained that I allowed too much - so Mudcat's owner Max made me Music Editor and I was replaced by more aggressive moderators. I often disagree with them, but such is life. It's an impossible situation. But either we insist on a situation that fits our exact specifications and live in isolation, or we live a life of compromise. I choose the latter. I hope you'll continue to put up with us, even if we're not perfect. We really do try to do our honest best - but we disagree about how that should be done.
-Joe Offer-