'English folk music is odd'

Subject: 'English folk music is odd'
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 22 - 09:52 AM

Massive interview with the young but fabulous ballad singer, Nick Hart, in this week's Tradfolk Digest.

"I have a lifelong mission to prove that English folk music is odd."

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 22 - 04:58 PM

adjective: odd; comparative adjective: odder; superlative adjective: oddest

    1.
    different to what is usual or expected; strange

I have been involved in singing it for 46 years, as far as I am concerned it is generally speaking interesting, but the repertoire is no stranger than Scottish Folk Music or Irish folk music, the storylines are often more varied than pop music.
as far as i am concerned it is not odd or strange or different to what is usual unless the "it" being referred to is the music in the popular charts of the present century, which i personally find is often bland and banal

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 11 Apr 22 - 06:15 PM

Nah.
ALL Folk music is odd - ask the media!
That's why oddbods like Dick and I like it.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 01:09 AM

I do not find it odd. i find it fascinating. This appears to be an attempt by a promoter to promte one of his artistes

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 05:36 AM

How dare a promoter attempt to do their job and promte (sic) one of their artistes?

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: Reinhard
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 06:37 AM

Odd is such an odd word. Perhaps you should read the original interview to see what Nick Hart meant by it instead of waffling about your interpretation of the word.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 08:43 AM

no reason why a promoter should not do that, nobody said they should not, but if it is the case be honest about it.
i listened to the music, Reinhard.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: GUEST,Murkey
Date: 12 Apr 22 - 07:27 PM

I suspect it's actually an attempt by the writer to promote their (excellent) website.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Apr 22 - 04:33 PM

"Being kept awake at night by Roud Numbers."

What a great line!

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Apr 22 - 05:08 PM

Is that Malcolm Storey famed organiser if Whitby Folk Festival?

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Apr 22 - 07:33 PM

Well, some of us call Malcolm "infamous," but we like him just the same...

He has contributed some very interesting posts to Mudcat over the years.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 13 Apr 22 - 08:14 PM

Whether famous or infamous (cheers Joe) it matters not.
I keep an eye on Mudflap in order to correct errors and myths about Whitby Folk Week posted by them supposedly in the know.
That said my very first posting giving details of campsite arrangements at the time was met with a response that I did not know what f**k I was talking about.
It was almost my last!

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 02:12 PM

Nick Hart has hit on something quite important in this interview. Making English folk songs sound 'odd' - or at least 'different' has been a big part of the folk revival since Sharp and Vaughan Williams started promoting modal tunes. Later came Bert Lloyd's further meddling with modes, plus 'Tam Lin' and his ideas about paganism, Martin Carthy's 'cross-tuning' of the guitar *(which he told me was a deliberate attempt to 'inject a bit of mystery'), and the fascination of many revival singers (including me) with supernatural songs. Nothing wrong with any of that in itself, but we need to keep in mind that English folk song as sung traditionally wasn't quite as weird as some of us have made it out to be!

It's good that Nick is aware of this, and also that he listens to traditional singers - though I'm not sure what he's saying about Harry Cox's 'Raggle Taggle Gypsies', which has loads of thirds in it.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 05:37 PM

English folk song is in those respects no different from Scottish and Irish folk songs, and their is much crossover between all.Carthys retuning of the guitar was inspired by Davy Graham who was influenced by the Oud , I understand he came acorss that instrument in Morocco.
    other guitar tunings are influenced by the 5 string banjo eg dgdgcd used by martin simpson. dgdgbd which is a five string banjo tuning.
I am very wary of people using the term English as if it was something that has no outside influences., because of the possible nationalistic connotations
English music is no more odd, thah Appalachian Scottish or Irish, THEY all use the same tune modes Mixolydian Dorian and Ionian and very occasionally aeolian
The leader of the National Front Mr Griffin purported to be intersted in english folk music,presumably as he was an english nationalist

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 05:46 PM

Furthermore they were different long before the uk revival of Lloyd and MacColl , this is apparent in the appalachian folk music which was in existence long before Sharp the appaklachian music was generally regarded by Scholars as being derived from the music of England Scotland and Ireland .
as regrds Wales I am surmising that it would be necessary to go to Patagonia to answer the of evolvement and change question.,

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 05:47 PM

should read "the question of evolvement and change"

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 06:16 PM

here is Phil Tanner who was from TheGowerPenisula and english speaking part of wales, illustating my point a liting or diddling a tune and then singing a wassail, this shows the influence of a custom often associated with ireland diddling, and a wassail song , wassailing was also common in southwest and other parts of england
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqCxKtHr778 here is lilting or diddling from ireland https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnUOq0euqYQ using the same modes as and here is a cornish wassailhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YytajAIlJ2w

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 18 Apr 22 - 04:15 AM

Everything I've heard so far from Nick Hart's new album suggests it is one of the best English folk albums ever recorded.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 22 - 12:25 PM

Most music is odd to someone.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 02:11 PM

> Most music is odd to someone.

Case in point: Jethro Tull's single "Living in the Past". Ian Anderson purposely composed it to be non-standard, including using five-four time. The very fact that it was odd was what made it stand out from the herd and made it a hit.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 02:08 AM

5/4 is not unusual in International folk music and traditional song, but in top twenty western pop music if certainly is.
I would say that international folk music is odd, different would be IMO a better description .
In that sense English folk music is no different or odd than the folk music of many other countries.
Matt Milton are you Nick Harts agent or manager?
I notice that you describe yourself on linked in as a music project manager.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 05:43 AM

No, I have no connection with Nick Hart at all. You must be looking at the wrong LinkedIn page because I'm not a music project manager. I'm sure I'm not the only Matthew Milton on LinkediN. I'm an online content and communications professional who specialises in architecture and the built environment.

I just happen to think Hart's two albums thus far are fantastic examples of the one-man-and-his-guitar Martin Carthy tradition. And everything I've heard from his new one suggests it expands on that, using an array of different of instruments while still sticking to economical/minimal principles of arrangement. It reminds me of how a Moroccan musician might accompany themselves on the Krar, or how the Sabri brothers would accompany themselves on the Indian harmonium; it's not typically how English folk musicians since the Revival have tended to structure their arrangements.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 08:20 AM

well all a matter of opinion, yes they are good, but in my opinion no better than Nick Dow., or Chris Foster.all a matter of taste or opinion
I do remember an album by Pete Castle , particularly an unusual arrangement of Lord Bateman.
Davy Graham was influenced by the Morrocan Oud, have you heard his recordings and work with Shirley Collins
In fact Davy introduced Martin Carthy to Dadgad and the Morrocan OUD was responsible for Davys choice of DADGAD.
I do not hear anything that is very different from some other uk English folk revival musicians AS REGARDS STRUCTURE OF ARRANGEMENTS

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 08:27 AM

Here is an unusual arrangement TWO MAGICIANS: Pete Castle and Aroti Biswas. Recorded mid 1980s.
I met Bengali musician Aroti Biswas in the 1980s herehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VGma4vuNQ

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 10:53 AM

5/4 is not unusual in International folk music and traditional song, but in top twenty western pop music if certainly is.

There again, it answers the age-old question "How many beats in a Mars bar"

And yes, that's a Holst comment. "Mars, the Bringer of War" is in 5/4 time.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 11:37 AM

In a post above I typed Moroccan (in reference to the Krar lyre), when I should have typed Ethiopian. My brain is tripping up for too often these days.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 02:54 AM

Many things about England are odd!

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: Rasener
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 04:03 PM

I have to thank Malcom Storey for giving Lucy Wright and Paul Young a brilliant time at your festival. I met Malcom at the whitby Festival in may.
I met him in the Loo and he promised to give them a chance.
The next time I saw him was at the Cleethorpes Folk Festival and sat next to him watching the Miranda Sykes Band and I daren't say what was said as we had both had a bit to drink.
Hope you are well Malcolm.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: GUEST,Alderney Fred
Date: 30 Apr 22 - 05:50 PM

Martin Carthy has denied, in the past, that he got DADGAD from Davy Graham.
In fact I believe there was a chain of young musicians, including Clive Woolf in his heyday, that links the two together, even though they may not have met and talked about it directly.

Subject: RE: 'English folk music is odd'
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 01 May 22 - 01:26 AM

Fred , he has also [in the past] stated that he spent an evening or maybe a whole night with Davy, who showed him DADGAD, Check it out