Jubilee side disc: strings, accordions, drums more

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 03:39 PM

"I'd like to see Brian May put down his American electric guitar & pick up an English cittern - plucked with or without a feather plectrum."

That is not an american electric guitar, he built it with his Dad many years ago. I dare say he would be excellent on an English cittern, but is primarily a very good rock guitarist indeed.

---

The Queens platinum jubilee thread had a lot of thread drift into music while it was running in the BS section. This transfer of some of the messages is an attempt to let that conversation continue, rather than move the jubilee thread into the Music area.

Much of the racist stuff that WAV espoused in this context has been deleted, but not all of it. His nonsense couldn't be deleted completely in order for the conversation to migrate to sound musical footing. — SRS

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:59 PM

For diversity to live long, Steve, we need Greeks to keep playing their bouzouki, Italians their mandolin, and English our cittern - once found in nearly every barber-shop in England, now almost as scarce as hens teeth...although he mostly uses the guitar, I have seen NE folkie, Jez Lowe, accompany his songs with a cittern.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 01:05 AM

The differences between cittern, bouzouki, and octave-mandolin have become blurred nowadays, to the point at which they are almost interchangeable. The instrument Jez refers to as his ‘cittern’ is, more accurately, an octave-mandolin. And Jez is well known for his heavy use of a Chorus Pedal - an American invention, if I’m not mistaken.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 07:07 AM

For diversity to live long, Steve, we need Greeks to keep playing their bouzouki, Italians their mandolin, and English our cittern

Nonsense. What is needed for TRUE diversity is for the bouzouki, mandolin and cittern to be played by ANYONE regardless of nationality. What you are saying smacks of restricting certain nations to play only their national instrument. You will be telling us next that black people should only perform work songs and sprituals or that Jewish people should only perform Klezmer. I seem to recall that a certain nationalist leader in the 1930s had that idea shot down by lovers of freedom. Literaly.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 07:24 AM

So Jez Lowe primarily plays the the guitar which originated in Spain even though he has access to the very English cittern? It's the Gulag for him.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 08:25 AM

OK, WAV - What do you think of a mixed session I went to a short while back in Skipton where people were playing Italian Accordions, Spanish Guitars, Greek Bouzoukis, German Concertinas, Irish Tin Whistles and Australian Didgeridoos? If you had your way the only instruments people would have been playing there would be pipe and tabor and English (but not Anglo/German) concertinas! The cittern was only popular in barber shops between the 16th and 18th centuries and now survives mainly as the German Waldzither or the Portuguese guitar so that would not qualify as an English instrument. Diversity means cross cultural boundaries should be removed, not reinforced!

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 08:41 AM

I do have to say that a discussion of multiculturalism in connection with traditional instruments is infinitely more interesting than reading forelock-tuggers’ and cap-doffers’ witterings about Platty-Jubes…

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 12:51 PM

"...in Skipton where people were playing Italian Accordions, Spanish Guitars, Greek Bouzoukis, German Concertinas, Irish Tin Whistles and Australian Didgeridoos?"

Well, Dave, I'd have welcomed: all that except for the didgeridoo, which I would have employed for the task of significantly enlarging the diameter of the last several feet of its owner's lower bowel - and that has nothing to do with the fact that it's Australian!

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 01:27 PM

On the hate scale it's spoons (the winner), bodhran, didgeridoo and piano accordion. I've rarely been lucky enough to meet anyone who is both good at any of these AND considerate to other musicians in sessions. In fact I regard most people in possession of any of them as mere owners. Note the caveats "rarely" and "most!"

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 02:37 PM

I admit to accordion crimes but never in sessions. It's too loud and I'm not good enough!

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 03:09 PM

Sorry Guys, you are both SO wrong. A Bodhran played well is the soul of any music, it adds light and shade to any tune and hopefully keeps the other musicians in time.

Just in case you perchance think there speaks a man who plays a bodhran .................... I don't .................. but I do appreciate a well played one.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 03:21 PM

Trouble is Raggy that for every good and sensitive player there are 100 who think you just need to bash a goatskin with a stick as loud as possible to every tune :-(

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 08:24 PM

". but I do appreciate a well played one."

Aaargh!

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 01:22 AM

‘A well-played bodhran…’

A perfect, textbook example of an oxymoron, if ever I saw one…

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 03:39 AM

Hmm...Train of thought...Maybe a bodhran is best played with a mattock...

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 04:18 AM

I disagree, bwm. I've known bodhran players who I've felt are assets to sessions. Unfortunately, I've also come across those I've felt utterly destructive.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 04:32 AM

Then you’ve been a lucky fella, Jon. I only seem to have stumbled across the PITAs. Mind you, I steer well clear of Irish sessions, and there never seems to be a lot of call for bodhrans at English/French ones.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 04:49 AM

I can't play in sessions any more (whatever sessions there still are, not too common in sparsely-populated in Cornwall in any case) because my hearing has deteriorated too far. In over twenty years of playing just about every week, I never once experienced a bodhran player who I hadn't wanted to expel from the pub forthwith. With all due respect to you mighty guitar players, I also think that more than one guitar in a session is anathema. Irish music is tunes, not "backing." The very best session I ever went to was at Hughes' in Dublin. A dozen melody players (with one or two "names" who didn't show off!), not a drum or strum in sight, just unison playing of tunes. Grand it was!

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 05:47 AM

I agree that more than one guitar at the same time is usually a problem. I think there will always be disagreements over the role of guitar in Irish sessions but I like one who can take up the rhythm and perhaps influence things a touch if the melody players get a bit ragged. Each to their own, I suppose... Again, it's not every guitar player who can do this well.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 07:04 AM

”Irish music is tunes, not "backing."

Not saying you’re wrong, Steve - Irish music isn’t, and never has been, of the faintest interest to me (too much breakneck-speed twiddly-diddly and fiddlers/whistle-players/melodeon-ists etc. showing off for my taste). But I reckon you’d have a very tough time telling this guy that he can’t accompany Irish tune-players! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 07:39 AM

I've enjoyed listening-in on a few sessions but am no connoisseur - and, though I can learn a tune by ear, take a lot longer than a good session musician, frankly.

That said, would not it be better to have a cláirseach rather than a guitar at Irish sessions?

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 08:17 AM

Breakneck speeds are the territory of young, immature, showy-offy young bucks, usually fiddle players. The rest of us go to the bar or the bog until they've finished, and if they go on too long we know how to edge them out. Irish tunes are not just bunches of notes. They contain all the rhythm, the tempo and the in-your-head harmony, in the right hands. And that's the hands of the melody players!

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 08:45 AM

I don't mind the occasional Irish session but I enjoyed the Mixed Irish/English/Scottish/Klezmer/Everything else that they used to have at the Peveril in Manchester more. My favourites have always been English and Scottish music. I think inside this overweight aged body there is a dancer trying to get out :-D

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 08:48 AM

...and, yea, I know there are Irish dancers but they don't use their arms just like Irish melodeon players don't use the bass buttons. If you are going to do something, do it all. Not just half :-P

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 09:11 AM

...but whether for dance or lyrics, Dave, the folk tradition in these isles is to repeat the tune/the top-line melody, as Steve has been emphasising, yes?

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 09:39 AM

Whatever WAV but English players usually use the bass side a lot more than Irish ones. English players also tend to prefer G/D on 2 row melodeons/button accordions and Irish ones will often prefer tunings like B/C and C#D, and all of these for tunes most commonly played in G or D (or equivalent sharps). No fixed rules though, just an attempt at generalisation.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 02:53 PM

That's right, Jon. Most Irish players of two-row button accordions use a semitone-apart instrument, not a D/G job, more "chromatic" than a D/G, and they play across the rows. But the use of the bass buttons is not precluded: as a very fine example, listen to the playing of Jackie Daly on his seminal solo album, Music From Sliabh Luachra Vol. 6. His spartan use of the bass buttons on several tracks is deadly!

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 03:16 PM

Oddly enough though Irish music on an Anglo concertina is mainly played in D on a 30 button C/G box! It doesn't preclude the use of rhythmic bass or harmony but it does usually result in only the melody line being used. Compare Irish Anglo playing with that of English exponents and there is a vast difference.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 03:26 PM

You would also need a clever bass system, either free bass or Stradella, to play bass on a chromatic box in any keys other than the native bass keys. Think boxes like those played by John Kirkpatrick or Jimmy Shand. Often known as the British Button accordion rather than the continental chromatic system. Yes, sorry, I don't play well but I am a bit of a squeeze box nerd!

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 04:35 PM

I have a Hohner Erica D/G box that I bought new 30 years ago but which I've scarcely used. I originally bought a B/C box from Mally, who played a D/G for Irish and tried to persuade me to get the same, but I went against his advice. Eventually, as a harmonica player, I realised that my mental muscle memory belonged firmly in the D/G camp, and Mally, much to his credit, allowed me to swap the B/C for the Erica. But I've done nothing with it...

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 06:11 PM

"hopefully keeps the other musicians in time."

The role of a bodhran isn't to lead the time, it's to follow the tune, as is true of the bones as well. Or maybe have a drink and listen. Too often it's the other way, and I'd rather guess that lies behind Steve’s comment " I never once experienced a bodhran player who I hadn't wanted to expel from the pub forthwith. " As for the ones who set out to lead and dominate things…

For all that, in it¡s place I like the bodhran. But it's place is a modest place. And the same should be true of a guitar in an Irish Session. (But Steve, have you tried hearing aids yet?)

Great thread drift!

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 06:21 PM

As an awful lot of tunes, Irish and otherwise, are in D or G, a D/G box can be used quite exrensively with the added advantage that the bass buttons will always fit. As long as you press the right ones:-D

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 08:32 AM

The cittern has not been a popular English instrument since the 18th century. It has evolved into the guitar which Jeff Beck plays extremely well. Maybe it's time you evolved your pointless nationalism into something sensible WAV? Go and write some poetry. At least some people may like that.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 08:47 AM

...you may say the cittern, & other such string instruments, "evolved" from the lute, Dave, but NOT that it evolved into the the Spanish guitar - the latter, of course, became very popular in many nations but, thankfully, e.g., the mandolin in Italy, the bouzouki in Greece, the balalaika in Russia and the (quite unique) Portuguese guitar have not been swamped.

Given how popular the English cittern was (which we do agree on) and that there must be plenty of capable luthiers about, it could be brought back and enjoyed if attitudes changed...

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 08:52 AM

Which they won't. I suggest that we simply enjoy a world in which musicians can freely choose whichever instrument appeals to their talent, and leave all this cod-nationalism out of it. It's getting rather tedious, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 09:01 AM

Also, as someone (BWM?) noted, the borders between the bozouki (well the so-called Irish version), octave manodlin/mandola (depending on your terminology) and the cittern (at least modern ones) are a bit blurred. Scale lengths and I think the one usually called a cittern uses 5 pairs of strings? but they are all basically adaptions of the same designs.

In terms of Irish music, as far as I know the one called the bozouki tends to be favoured by those who are primarily accompanists. The slightly shorter scale of the mandola makes it easier for playing melody in GDAE tuning (bozouki players may prefer the GDAD or ADAD).

I think...

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 10:37 AM

The Portuguese Guitar is a direct descendent of the cittern, WAV. As is the German Waldzither and the Corsican Cetara. The ciittern's development is well documented and here it is simplified direct from Wiki - "it is generally accepted that it is descended from the Medieval citole (or cytole). Its flat-back design was simpler and cheaper to construct than the lute. It was also easier to play, smaller, less delicate and more portable. Played by people of all social classes, the cittern was a premier instrument of casual music-making much as is the guitar today."

Furthermore, if you look into the citole you find "Although it was largely out of use by the late 14th century, the Italians "re-introduced it in modified form" in the 16th century as the cetra (cittern in English), and it may have influenced the development of the guitar as well."

So your theory of it being an English instrument and should be the only one played here is, as ever, bollocks. The same instruments develop and evolve the world over and there are no boundries to music so please stop trying to impose them.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 03:28 AM

Can we still talk about music and instruments though? That is far more interesting:-D

After what must be 30 years of twiddling about on Anglo concertina and never really learning anything but tunes, I am finally getting to grips with using it to accompany some songs. That is something really worth celebrating !

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 04:59 AM

Can we still talk about music and instruments though? That is far more interesting:-D

Of course you can continue. The Jubilee celebrations are now a thing of the past.
But. . .
If you want more intelligent input into the conversation, then surely it would make sense to move it 'above the line'.
There is nothing in the title of this thread that would draw some people to it.

But don't ask me, I only feel confidence in a single instrument (voice) and that has suffered from 'long-covid' (breath restrictions and a shift of 'break-point')

Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 05:23 AM

Oh well then, although dtg will know this. Back to melodeons and chords.

Something some players do is to tape off the thirds. This makes chords more "ambiguous" and effectively increases the number of chords available. Some boxes, including my B/C have a stop to switch thirds in and out but on other boxes including the Erica and Pokerwork, cruder methods may be used.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 06:41 AM

Yep - The alternative of free bass or a Stradella system is for masters of the art only! Although having got used to a Stradella 32 bass on my accordion I can see how it could be well utilised on a melodeon. The bass columns on my 32, going from the bellows out, are bass note, major chord, minor chord and seventh. The key rows from bottom to top are Eb, Bb, F, C, G, D. A, and E. So I could play (note could, not can!) in Bb, C and G, utilising the minor chords D, A and E and play reasonably in D and A provided I dont have to use B minor or F# minor, which I don't have!

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 06:49 AM

As a slight aside my Mandola has 10 strings, It is called a Portugese Mandola and has strings placed in sets of 2, 2, 3 and 3.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 07:23 AM

My mate John Cartain, who I think you met at Ribblehead, Raggy, has a Portuguese Mandolin which is strung the same way. Usually referred to as a Portuguese Man O'War :-D Made by Fylde I think.

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 08:08 AM

I don't think I've seen one like this,Raggy but perhaps I have without taking it in...

Subject: RE: BS: HM The Queen's Platinum Jubilee!
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 08:20 AM

The very same instrument Dave, I bought it from him shortly before he died. Good man was John.

Subject: RE: Mutation of stringed instruments - cittern, etc.
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 09:36 AM

CBOMs away!

Subject: RE: Jubilee side disc: strings, accordions, drums more
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 10:12 AM

Most of what is above this point was pulled out of the Jubilee thread in BS, so the music discussion could continue above the line.

You're welcome.

Subject: RE: Jubilee side disc: strings, accordions, drums more
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 01:25 PM

Different John, Raggy. The one I mention may be in France at the moment but not actually dead yet :-)

Subject: RE: Jubilee side disc: strings, accordions, drums more
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 03:06 PM

Did your John used to live in County Cork with his wife Maria (I think)

Subject: RE: Jubilee side disc: strings, accordions, drums more
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 05:24 PM

No, he's a retired solicitor from Stockport. Dunno if you will remember him from Ribblehead. Full head of white hair and, unusually for us lot, clean shaven!

Subject: RE: Jubilee side disc: strings, accordions, drums more
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 07:39 PM

Now that is odd!!

Subject: RE: Jubilee side disc: strings, accordions, drums more
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 04:47 PM

Dave wrote After what must be 30 years of twiddling about on Anglo concertina and never really learning anything but tunes, I am finally getting to grips with using it to accompany some songs. That is something really worth celebrating!

So instead of playing tunes you're joining in the accompaniment and making noise in tune? ;-)

Subject: RE: Jubilee side disc: strings, accordions, drums more
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Jun 22 - 03:22 AM

My comment on the music played by the Irish Guards is still below the line: it was one of the few that mentioned music.