Help: banjo electronics for performance

Subject: banjo electronics for performance
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 12:09 PM

I love the sound of acoustic instruments - face to face in my home or in a studio with mics ... but in performance, when I don't have much control over sound conditions, generally speaking mics are the enemy! How do I go about hooking up an open back banjo with a pick up? I know guitars have several good options; baggs, fishman, etc ... what about banjos? Are there similarly good electronics avialable?

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: Jon W.
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 01:56 PM

I haven't done this so take it with a grain of salt, but Stewart MacDonald sells a Five-Star brand magnetic pickup that mounts on the rim coordinating rods and has a thin steel shim placed under the bridge. I don't know if it would be possible to mount it on a single rod or dowel stick as most open back banjos have, but I'll bet it could be done with some modification. They claim the pickup provides natural acoustic tone. They recommend a pre-amp for stage use. The price in the latest catalog is $82.90

Jon W.

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 02:45 PM

THanks Jon, I'll look 'em up!

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 04:37 PM

I've been thinking of putting a pickup in my banjo simply as an aid to tuning during noisy sessions: I've got a little HoneyTone amp with a mini-headphone jack. I suppose I could also pull the headphones and amplify on the sly to give me a chance against resonater banjos played with picks, mandolins, fiddles, etc. (I play clawhammer openback without picks), in Irish sessions (of course, I have to learn the tunes, too).

--seed

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: charcloth
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 05:23 PM

I use a BARCUS-BERRY pick up on both my open back & bluegrass banjo which works ok for me, but it is a trade off. it does sound a little "clanky". I found I had to use a preamp.Most times I don't use the pickups I just mic the instruments.That is partly because I switch from banjo to guitar to bouzouki to banjo etc. But I think that a clip-on mic like is used for drums would work better than the set up I have

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: DonMeixner
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 06:01 PM

Any transducer type pickup, Fishman, Barcus Barry et al will require a preamp to get the impedence up and equal to most sound systems.

I've struggled with this for many years and I have decided that short of a system more pricey than my banjo is. Your better off with a microphone. I use now a B&B system with a B&B preamp. The whole rig id about $125.00 and it is marginal at best. It is a great adjunct to an electric tuner however.

Don

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: Owlkat
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 11:02 PM

Hi hi
Here's what I've done to amplify banjos; both for me, and repair shop customers.
You go to Radio Shack or whatever electronics store you use, and you pick up plastic-cased piezo element, or buzzer as some people call them. They come in different tones and operating currants.
So far, I've used the 3000hz and 2800hz models. They cost about five bucks.
What you do is CAREFULLY break the back off the plastic casing and loosen the piezo element inside and remove it. Don't pull the leads off the crystal. If they come off, they can be carefully soldered back on with low-heat solder.
Whatcha got there is a piezo crystal that can be trimmed with scissors to whatever size you want and fit and glued onto the back of the banjo bridge. Double-sided foam tape is a good mounting medium, and cuts down on the really high frequency noise. Solder a micro-sized jack onto the leads and secure it to a banjo hook.
It's a good idea to use a pre-amp with this set-up, since the signal can be kind of crunchy. Experiment with lower frequency crystals for different tone colours.
I've used this setup on banjos, mandolins, and fiddles. They're so cheap that you can make up several of them of differing buzzer tones and see which one has the sound you like. If you break one of them, it's easy to make another one.
The neat idea here is that they can either buzz or be buzzed. It just depends whether you put currant through them, or put them on a vibrating surface to create currant. Cool, huh?
Anyway, there you go. Cheap, noisy, fun. Heck, give them as gifts.
I do.
Cheers,
Owlk.

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: DonMeixner
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 11:26 PM

SEE GUYS!

I'm not the only one who makes his own Piezo pick ups. These piezo elements in this same configuration are mentioned in the autoharp tuner thread.

Don

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: Jon W.
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 11:02 AM

Owlkat, I'm a little confused as to what you mean by the "back of the banjo bridge." Is it the part of the bridge that faces the tailpiece or what?

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 11:40 AM

agreed w/Jon's question ... and do you really use double sided foam tape to attach the device to the bridge? that seems much too think, it seems the peizo elec device is too far removed from the vibrating element (the bridge) to be of any use??

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: blind desert pete
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 01:02 PM

Gee I think Earl solved this in the 50'sbelivehe used a resonator and finger picks. acoustic forever!

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 01:40 PM

Liam....Two things......

Piezos are VERY sensitive so affixing them is not the problem. As a matter of fact, they can be too sensitive in certain applications (company I worked for for many years had a wheel balancer using them and it needed to be greatly suppressed to work---kept finding minute changes in balance all the time!!!) Owlkat and Don "the Wizard" both have an easily workable solution, but if you are interested in the Stew-Mac pickup that Jon suggested as a possibility, I live about 40 miles from them and I'm there about once a month if you want me to talk to Jerry about them.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: DonMeixner
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 02:50 PM

I have seen these very piezo elements that Owl and i have mentioned used for many purposes. The banjo pick up that Owl describes here was used by a fellow under the banjo bridge and afixed to the back of the top with a thin layer of GE Silicone II. Liam, the double sided tape does seem thick until you remember the DumDum like putty that Barfus Barry uses to hold there pick ups in place. I have a piezo pick up on my Dusty Strings Apprentice Hammered Dulcimer that is held in place by a piece of Army Ordinance Tape (one each, OD). Another daring soul glued a small piece of maple veneer to the banjo bridge and affixed the piezo element to the veneer.

Experimentation in this manner is dirt cheap. Try it. At least you will improve the electronic tuner access to the banjo.

Desert Pete is, in the end, very correct. Nothing sounds accoustic but accoustic.

Don

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: David Enke, Luthier
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 06:14 PM

I am using a Pick-up the World model #20 made for banjo on my long neck 5 string ODE, and there is nothing that compares to the sound, clearity, and the ease of installation. It is a nearly weightless 1/3" X 1/3" polymer tab that mounts on the inside under the center bridge foot with machinist's tape. It does not alter the tone, and exceeds the frequency response of mics. The jack can be mounted anywhere on the rim, and can be installed by the musician with no permanent modification, glue, or holes. Check out www.pick-uptheworld.com

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: Kristi H
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 06:48 PM

Our banjo player uses a small mic attached with tape or tacky stuff placed inside the sock he places behind the drum attached to a preamp. The sock keeps the twanging down. The sock is also always in his banjo. In all performing situations he also uses a Shure microphone for the main sound and the small mic in the banjo he clicks on for leads. this set up has worked well in our five pice string band. Using just one or the other doesn't give him enough sound for his leads. Kristi

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: DonMeixner
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 06:49 PM

Hey Dave,

Your post appeals to me particularly in that I also play a long neck Ode 5 string. An instrument I've come to regard as underappreciated.

I'll check out your suggestion. Thanks.

Don

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: Troll
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 07:03 PM

I play tenor banjo in a klezmer band and I settled on a cheap dynamic mic wrapped in closed-cell foam (similar to the sock idea) It plugs into the pa and away we go. I don"t play leads so I don't have a clarity problem. I have tried various kinds of pickups and this is the best for the price. Try this if you are not sure of your electronic expertise in making your own custom piezo.

troll

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: Troll
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 07:05 PM

I should add that this contraption is taped to the truss rod.

troll

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: Owlkat
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 02:20 AM

Hi hi,
Necessity is indeed the mama of invention.
Wow, living less than a five day drive, and an international border away from Stew Mac.LUXURY!! Aaanyway. Let's see. You can stick the pickup onto the back of the bridge facing the tailpiece.
You can also stick it to the underside of the skin right underneath the bridge feet.
These little guys are terrifyingly sensitive, so the foam is a help in toning them down a little. That's not to say that there aren't other mounting mediums that wont' work. Go nut, I says.
This is neither a high tech, nor a high fidelity fix. But, if you can't afford anything else, and you gotta be loud, this is certainly one way of bringing home the tofu. Also you can control feedback better than with a microphone in close proximity to the vibrating skin.
Incidentally, it's easier to mic a banjo if you use a resonator. Some folks do, and some don't.
There. I'm done. Again. For now.
Cheers and banananas.
Owl.

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: Jed at Work
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 11:42 AM

Just thought I'd follow up on this thread. I found a review or two about a fishman banjo pick-up. I like fishman stuff, so I went to the fishamn site and read up on their banjo pick-up. I liked what I heard, so decided to give it a try - and I have to say I've been using for about month now, and I love it! It worked much better then I would have expected.

The premise is simple; they place a small square of steel on the back of the banjo head with tape. It is placed just north of the bridge, and centered within the strings. Beneath it is placed a sound coil wrapped pick-up; yep, just like your electric guitar! The signal is small, so it works best with a pre-amp, but it requires very little EQ, and produces a mcuh much truer banjo sound then I ever could have dreammed! And surprisingly, the banjo lends itself very well to the more electric instrument dynamics then I would expect.

Anyway - this has been a success story for me. Thanks for all your help here.

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: bill\sables
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:12 PM

I spent a lot of years and a lot of money trying to amplify a banjo so that it sounded like a banjo all with poor results till I found the Fishman which I have been using for about five years. On a recent trip to the USA I was visiting Bluejay and his son in law suggested I try a new type of pickup, (the one David Enke suggests) I stuck this lightweight pickup under the bridge of my open backed Vega tenor and was amazed at the sound It sounded just like the banjo but louder. I have since got rid of my fishman and am using this new pick up the world pick up and I am very happy with it plus the fact that it is gauranted for five years You can find it Here There is also an independant report on these pickups Here

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: Jed at Work
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:27 PM

Well Bill, thanks for speaking up! I have just put one of the "pick-up the world" pick-ups on my 'reconfigured" Martin Backpacker (now more acuratel described as a dulcitar). The sound is truely excellent, and I was trying to find the forum thread in which we discussed that issue - but haven't found it yet ... I wanted to update it. That, in fact, is how I came across this one and realized I should update this one as well.

I never would have guessed you put a pick-up in a banjo and have a great banjo sound ... and you're right the fishman is excellent. So if the 'pick-up the world' pick up is even better, I'd be really impressed. I too use an open back; a long neck Vega. Lovely sounding instrument, so I was thrilled that the fishman captured the quality.

Bye the way your blue clicky didn't work, but I believe this one does. I am impressed with the advances in sound engineering over the last 20 years!

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: Jed at Work
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:29 PM

sorry for the errors, my mind works much faster then my typographically challenged fingers! I meant to say, "I never would have guessed you could put a pick-up in a banjo and have a great banjo sound."

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 08:36 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: Help: banjo electronics for performance
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 09:04 AM

In refreshing this thread, I brought back up the discussion on pick-ups for your banjo, and other (instruments). Rather then using the 'pick-up-the-world' model for banjos, as suggested here, I used the fishman banjo pick-up and have been very happy with its sound - it does have a couple of practical shortcomings for my application; 1) I use it on my Vega long neck (open back) banjo and the mounting brackets for the pick-up extend a bit too far and hit me in the belly when I play. It's no more then a minor annoyance, but I would like to fix it. Also, the adjustment grooves that set the distance of the pick up from the head are not quite long enough. I have my pick-up set as close as possible, and cannot move it back any further. I would like to have just a little more distance.