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BS: Precognition
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Subject: BS: Precognition From: Donuel Date: 23 Nov 22 - 01:23 PM Precognition is an umbrella term that includes premonition. Is human consciousness an illusion? No, it is fundamental. Consciousness is no pseudo-science—it seems nonphysical, but is very much a biological phenomenon. It is not an illusion overall. So is precognition. There are people without this awareness, just like visual variations. Mediums are damned, but some psychics have an imprimatur. I remember my 1st short-lived premonition since it was a visual dream-like display of headlines at age 15. Of course, not all precognition-like events are what they seem. Deja Vu is only loosely related. There are few cases beyond a status quo explanation. Ancient civilizations gave this 'feeling' a name and its mythology is still going strong. I have no recent big or small suspected premonitions. Most things are just caution, expected events, and rationalizations. Some theories give some credence to the phenomenon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Donuel Date: 23 Nov 22 - 01:25 PM Max Planck: "I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Nov 22 - 01:47 PM I knew this thread would be started by you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Rain Dog Date: 23 Nov 22 - 06:00 PM "Deja Vu is only loosely related." How so? Can you let me know the UK lottery numbers for this coming Saturday? Can you let me know who is going to win the World Cup? I already have a sense of deja vu anticipating your response. Or is that precognition? Either way, the sooner you can tell me who is going to win the World Cup the more money I can make. Thanks in advance. (Or is that thanks in the present or thanks in the past?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Nov 22 - 06:04 PM Yeah, Dave. Me too. More obscurantist verbal diarrhoea... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Donuel Date: 23 Nov 22 - 06:26 PM See, Dave is a precog. Deja Vu? Think about it, it's sort of precog in reverse presentation. All the numbers are involved. France You're welcomed, in the future ;*) My precog experiences were all future mass knowledge events. As a young man I took them seriously to the point of going in person to the FBI and warning of the future event and the precaution that could be taken. The future event happened and no precautions were taken. Since that outcome I just say c'est la vie when they happen. Now I just use them for my own protection. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Nov 22 - 06:47 PM Your "precog experiences" are just complete bollocks. It's about as likely as seven-legged little blue men camping out on Saturn's rings and you know it. Do spare us the unnecessary clicks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Helen Date: 23 Nov 22 - 09:38 PM Throw out bait to people who are unable to control their responses. Yeah! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Senoufou Date: 24 Nov 22 - 02:49 AM When I was about twelve, I had a dream one night that my younger sister was threatened by a man down in the woods near our house. He had a black dog with him in the dream. A few days later, she was playing there with some friends when a horrible man appeared (with a black dog!) and exposed himself to the girls. Luckily they ran like hell, and the Police were informed. Now I wonder if I'd seen this chap myself in the woods before the event, and sensed that he was 'strange'. I think 'precognition' is merely our subconscious making sense of subtle warning signs and alerting us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Doug Chadwick Date: 24 Nov 22 - 03:57 AM I've had déjà vu before. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 04:04 AM I've had déjà fu - the feeling that I've been kicked in the nuts before by a martial arts practitioner... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 04:15 AM As a former vegetarian I have frequent déjà vu - I keep feeling I've been herbivore. What did the Roman say when he got déjà vu? "I feel like I've ben hur before." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 04:28 AM Knock knock Who's there? Déjà vu Knock knock |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Nov 22 - 05:57 AM I kept imagining I was an Indian prince before I had Rajah Vu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 06:29 AM I'll swear I've tasted this mustard before. I think I've got Dijon vu. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 06:35 AM Here's one that seems appropriate for this thread: Déjà moo - the feeling that I've come across this bullshit before... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: gillymor Date: 24 Nov 22 - 06:40 AM I had Vuja De once, I walked into this new restaurant and thought "Man, I've never been here before." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 06:43 AM Well I've had déjà vu and amnesia at the same time but I have this strange feeling that I've forgotten to mention this before... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Nigel Parsons Date: 24 Nov 22 - 07:11 AM . . . and still a restriction to one UK politics thread in BS. Maybe there should be a campaign for only one Donuel thread ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Nov 22 - 07:52 AM And on that, Nigel, you and I are in absolute, complete agreement! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 10:07 AM Alleluia! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Nov 22 - 10:15 AM ….but it’s also perfectly simple to ignore the bait which Donuel frequently dangles under the noses of his easy-to-catch prey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Donuel Date: 24 Nov 22 - 10:21 AM Today it's called MOAB. My FBI visit was about 9-11 and a bit later a 16 sq. ft. painting of the twin towers on fire with hands reaching up to the sky 2 years before the event. It was sold to a Texas couple before 9-11. They contacted me afterward in shock. My hijacking deterrent has yet to be implemented. We are prone to think our own reality is shared by everyone, but nothing is further from the truth. There are things we share and things we don't. We are as different as our faces. It is narcissistic to think you have the only handle on real global events and feelings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Consciousness_Project |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: gillymor Date: 24 Nov 22 - 10:34 AM Oooookay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 10:36 AM Has it been a good mushroom season? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Donuel Date: 24 Nov 22 - 10:37 AM A guru is looking for prey, a despot is looking for prey, a sociopath is seeking prey, etc. If you think my motives are evil where is the evidence? I understand the phrase "If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him". Following a leader is dangerous. Some questions are beneficial to people. More beneficial than the motives of people who don't want others to hear the questions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 10:48 AM Nobody thinks your motives are evil. Some of us have other possible explanations for your antics, that's all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Nov 22 - 11:36 AM I believe I just had some precognition of this thread dying a death. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 12:51 PM Are you sure you're not just being prescient? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 24 Nov 22 - 01:13 PM Possible alternative explanation: Pratchett's Law is valid, and I can prove it, provided you're willing to widen your field of view a tad. Brace yourselves ---
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 24 Nov 22 - 01:21 PM --- Rats: pressed the wrong button before I could add the punchline: An SF short story was published, portraying the explosion of an atomic bomb, before the Bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. After much grilling of the author, this was deemed to be simple coincidence. .... The rest is left as an exercise for the reader. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Helen Date: 24 Nov 22 - 02:03 PM One night I recorded an episode of The Lone Gunmen, a spin-off series from The X Files, but didn't watch it until the next evening. The morning after recording it is memorable because we turned the TV on and the 9/11 attack was all over the news. (Bear in mind the time difference because I live in Oz.) When I saw the footage of the attack it looked like a Hollywood movie scene and I kept asking myself if this was real. The Lone Gunmen (TV series) "Similarities to 9/11 attacks in pilot storyline "In the pilot episode, which aired March 4, 2001 (six months prior to the September 11 attacks[5]), rogue members of the U.S. government remotely hijack an airliner departing Boston, planning to crash it into the World Trade Center, and let anti-American terrorist groups take credit, to gain support for a profitable new war following the Cold War. The heroes ultimately override the controls, foiling the plot." So by the time I watched the episode that night it was a very, very eerie feeling seeing almost exactly the same scenario of terrorists intending to carry out the attack on the Twin Towers but given that it was a fictional show, of course the heroes saved the day. There are varying explanations for this coincidence. One is that the writer of the show had a premonition of the impending attack. Another is that the writer or the person who had the inspiration for the plot read the minds of the people who would have been planning the attack at the time the show was written and produced. Another is that it was sheer coincidence. But the biggest coincidence - or maybe precognitive action - in my mind is that it was aired on Australian TV the night before the real-life attack. Could someone on the TV programming team have been privy to the terrorists' plans? Could it have been part of a wider conspiracy? Or was it just an eerie coincidence? I personally have had a number of precognitive experiences in my life. On one occasion I suspected that I picked up the nasty intentions of a manager I used to work for - he was plotting something negative - and that was why I had a strong feeling that something bad was about to happen. (It did.) He had probably been thinking about his plan for a while. Part of the process of picking up signs of a person's intentions can be observing body language, hearing what that person says, the inflections in her/his voice, etc but sometimes it is an unexplainable source of information. I would appreciate it if the people who are coming into this thread just to throw personal insults at Donuel or anyone who may wish to discuss the topic, or who just want an excuse to make the usual schoolboy jokes about male genitalia and try to deflect the conversation from the topic of the thread would just do the right thing and leave the discussion. You don't need to be in this discussion if you are not intending to actually discuss the topic in a serious manner. Go find another playground to play in, please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Donuel Date: 24 Nov 22 - 04:18 PM Maloc was interesting...but I had a lot of similar-minded folks who were also presient. I consider my 'receptors' to be in the back row of the second violin section compared to 'conductors' who are truly presient. So, if one can accept this ability is valid with some people we could be looking at a renaissance of expanding consciousness as outlined in the documentary 'Third Eye Spies. There is not enough research in this area so it goes in and out of favor understandably. In the meantime "trust your gut". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Anne Lister Date: 24 Nov 22 - 04:35 PM There's a podcast available via BBC Sounds called "The Premonitions Bureau". Someone tried to collect premonitions/precognitions and find out just how accurate they were in terms of news events which subsequently happened. This followed on from a number of reports of people who had experiences of precognitive dreams or visions of the Aberfan tragedy. It's a fascinating podcast. Cutting to the conclusions - there were very, very few people who were able to foretell future events (but those who did were uncannily accurate), and there is a huge question around what use this information is. If you could prevent the event from taking place, what exactly was the premonition? And if you can't, because there's insufficient detail to do that (which is the most frequent situation) then what use is the premonition? I have had dreams which portrayed a very odd, but very vivid, event, and later seen news footage which showed precisely what my dream had shown, but the dream was imprecise about date, location and all other details, so of no practical use at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 24 Nov 22 - 04:58 PM I'll step back from this debate, if you don't mind, folks. I've an entirely too scientific way of looking at life on the one hand; on the other, well, a closed mouth gathers no foot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 24 Nov 22 - 05:03 PM If it is possible to in some way receive data from a parallel universe that is almost the same as ours but running with its clock a little ahead of ours, that would be one way of avoiding the paradox about changing events. You would no longer be making the dream/vision void if the event did not happen because you warned people. Robin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Helen Date: 24 Nov 22 - 05:29 PM Nicely stated, MaJoC. Much respect! Although I think that you could be part of the discussion even if you are presenting a contrary argument because it is a topic for discussion and not a foregone conclusion. One of the problems with trying to discuss anything outside of accepted "fact" is that a lot of people start by not looking at evidence and begin just by making fun of the people who may have something interesting to share. The outcome of that - sometimes unintended, but in some cases definitely intended - is that the discussion becomes stifled and the people who are interested in the topic are publicly ridiculed. Any person who may have had the chance to open her/his mind to broader possibilities tends to scuttle back into a safe place and avoid the discussion. Even scientists are afraid to ruin their academic reputations by publicly declaring an interest in certain phenomena. This is not useful for studying phenomena which may or may not have a rational scientific explanation. We will never be able to study a phenomenon properly when people are afraid to discuss the topic, or especially if certain people are hell-bent determined to prevent other people from discussing the topic. As Shakespeare aptly wrote, “There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” We don't know everything about the way the world works or the way humans work. We may never know everything, but with every study, every search for knowledge we get closer to knowing more about life and the world. It is arrogant to say, let's stop analysing phenomena because we already think we know what they are all about. Rational analysis and respectful discussion is the way forward, in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Ebbie Date: 24 Nov 22 - 05:44 PM What about dreams that serve as warnings? I once told my sister in law about a dream I’d had the night before where she, her husband, HER sister in law and I were at my parents’ house and we decided to go to my sister’s house to shoot pool. In the dream it was a ‘dark and stormy night’ and my sis in law was driving with her sis in law beside her in the front seat. My brother complained about her driving and it made her mad. She pulled over and said, OK- YOU drive. She and her sis in law got in the back seat and my brother and I got in front. At a corner, the car slid on the wet pavement and we went over the edge of the embankment. My brother and I were killed- but the backseat passengers survived. More to the dream but those are the salient points. A few months later, on a dark and stormy night, I stopped in at my parents’ house where I found my sis, my brother and her sister in law there. (That woman lived in the Portland area and I had never before seen her without her own husband being present.) The proposal was made that we go shoot pool at my sister’s house. We did not go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 06:15 PM Well I've dreamed ten thousand things that never happened in the past nor in the future, not a single thing that ever came true, and I've got better things to do that sit around fearfully hoping or wishing or expecting them to come true. I'm afraid that there's something of a quasi-religious thing about these "precog" claims, in that you know that your claim can't be disproven, just like the existence of God can't be disproven. There's something in the psyche of some people that urges them to set themselves apart in some kind of unchallengeable mystical way. I wouldn't know why that would be for those persons, but hey ho. Do note that the originator of this thread deals in certainties on this topic with no humble doubting. Again, the paradoxical certainty of evidence-innocent belief. Just like religious belief, let's have evidence. And let's remember that uncorroborated witness can never get over the high bar required by real evidence. In other words, nothing to see here, not without evidence! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 06:23 PM That=than. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Nov 22 - 06:54 PM Well the Filk touched on coincidence up there. Here's the first lines of the wiki entry on coincidence: "A coincidence is a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances that have no apparent causal connection with one another. The perception of remarkable coincidences may lead to supernatural, occult, or paranormal claims. Or it may lead to belief in fatalism, which is a doctrine that events will happen in the exact manner of a predetermined plan." I dream about 9-11 (more likely, something approximating to it), and it happens shortly after. I might want to claim some sinister connection. But the fact is that hundreds of millions of other people didn't dream that dream. I can claim that I have some mystical quality not possessed by others. Or I can face the fact that my dream and the event were nothing more than coincidence. Worth bearing in mind that any two events, no matter how trivial, that occur together represent a coincidence. My cat just scratched her ear just as Fiona Bruce on the telly said the word "tax." That is just as much a coincidence as the most dramatic coincidence imaginable. It's utterly unremarkable. So trivial that it doesn't bear dwelling on. But trivial and unremarkable doesn't make it any less a coincidence and the chances of the same two things happening together again are vanishingly small, just like most other coincidences. But you'd rather claim that your "precog dream" is more likely precog than just a simple coincidence? Well good luck with that. Science, facts and figures are utterly against you and your only fightback is to give us evidence. Proper evidence would be good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Ebbie Date: 25 Nov 22 - 12:25 AM When you say "you", Steve, who is the you? In the instance I related, there is no way online or otherwise to present documentation. Not to worry- I just passed on an interesting dream. By the way, the night they/we decided not to go shoot pool, it was my SIL's sister in law that said that SHE wasn't going anywhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: robomatic Date: 25 Nov 22 - 12:52 AM I recorded that original Lone Gunmen episode when it aired. Sent it to my brother without watching it and got a very excited call later in the year. An incidence of coincidence but not prescience or precog. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Helen Date: 25 Nov 22 - 01:34 AM robomatic, why was the target of the World Trade Centre chosen for the Lone Gunmen episode? Is that just coincidence? Surely there would be hundreds, if not thousands of other possible targets. And hijacking an airliner and planning to crash it into the WTC. Surely there are many possible ways for terrorists to attack a target. It's a very eerie set of coinciding events, one being fictional and created prior to the actual event. I'm not saying that precognition was involved. I'm just saying that the alignment of the fictional event and the real event is very chilling. Ebbie, I remember many years ago I was driving alone at night, heading up a poorly lit, very steep and winding hill in the suburbs, and I was driving in the right hand (middle) lane. (Remember we drive on the left here, BTW.) There were two lanes going up the hill, and only one lane coming down. As I was driving up the hill, with no vision of any cars coming the other way due to the winding road and no sound of other vehicles, I had a stronger and stronger feeling that I had to change lanes to the left hand lane, and the more I tried to rationalise it, the stronger the feeling became. I moved to the left lane, just as a car came speeding down the hill, in the incorrect lane, i.e. on my side of the road, and I would have had a head-on collision at speed if I hadn't changed lanes when I did. I probably would have been very seriously injured or I may even have been killed. There is a different feeling, or sense of urgency, to a precognitive message than a simple thought process like "I wonder if...". I also find that if I have had a dream which stays with me and plays on my mind it is more likely to be of some significance, instead of just one of the usual dreams which are my subconscious processing previous events or current issues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Ebbie Date: 25 Nov 22 - 02:06 AM Helen, my dreams tend to be very vivid- and non-meaningful. Night before last I dreamt that I was spending the night on the couch of a couple whom I didn't really know well and who had invited me out of kindness and inertia. I over-stayed my lackluster welcome, even though by the third night my car had been delivered. I woke up, wondering why I hadn't thanked them and left when the car came. Hey, I didn't even properly know the people. Last night one of my dreams had me doing laundry. Loads and loads of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Senoufou Date: 25 Nov 22 - 02:29 AM Hee hee Ebbie. doing loads of laundry! What a boring old dream that was! Many years ago (when I was 'young'!) I sometimes dreamt that I was out in public at a shopping centre completely naked! None of the other shoppers appeared to notice, and in the dream I wondered how I'd managed to forget to put on my clothes. I jolly well hope those dreams weren't a premonition! (Imagine the BBC local News - "Elderly lady found wandering naked in Norwich city centre tells Police she'd forgotten to get dressed!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Helen Date: 25 Nov 22 - 02:53 AM Doing loads of laundry? Now that's precognitive! I tend to dream that I can't remember where I parked my car, or I am trying to get home and no matter how hard I try I just can't make any headway. They aren't precognitive, but remembering where I parked the car at the shopping centre is a bit difficult IRL sometimes. (I'm getting older. By the time I really can't find it I'll be too old to drive anyway. Problem solved!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Nov 22 - 03:52 AM Helen, why were you driving in the middle lane? Perhaps your sense that you should be in ihe inside lane steps from the fact that there was no reason for you to be there unless you were overtaking! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Helen Date: 25 Nov 22 - 04:01 AM No, I knew that the left lane ended within a few hundred yards so I was pre-empting changing lanes because there were no other cars in either lane going up the hill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Precognition From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Nov 22 - 04:19 AM "You" wasn't referring to a specific individual, Ebbie. Dreams are an incredibly interesting topic. Over-interpreting them whilst ignoring the overwhelming probability of coincidence, on the other hand, is problematical. Remember Occam's razor. Coincidence is the simplest, most obvious, most probable though most prosaic explanation for that one-in-thousands dream that seems to chime with real events. Also, earnestly searching for similarities with real events whilst ignoring differences sounds like confirmation bias. I didn't see the aforementioned Lone Gunmen programme so I should proceed cautiously, but, from the account of it here, it isn't difficult to pick out a plethora of differences between it and the events of 9-11. Inconvenient but somewhat glaring, I'd have thought. And I get that naked-in-public dream a lot, Eliza (down, girls...). It's comforting to hear that I'm not alone! |