Why Do It?

Subject: Why Do It?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 24 Nov 22 - 09:51 AM

I've been pondering this dilemma for some time now.

In my Yorkshire based radio shows I try to give air time to local performers and bands, who are worthy of air time and maybe would appreciate an on air boost.

I also love the singaround clubs and occasionally record them for my shows.

Of course we get varied standards of performance.

My atitude is, if you are doing your best, then I will give you air time, as long as it's not embarrassing.

But then then is another lower level. Occasionally we get a performer who has no talent whatsoever, but who thinks they are great.

I'm not going to mention names, but I know somebody who thinks he is playing slide guitar who is absolutely crap at it. In fact it is cringeworthy having to listen to him bullshitting about how he is emulating early performers when he's doing no such thing.

A local radio presenter thinks he is a brilliant multi- instrumentalist, but at a local folk festival the majority of the audience walked out on him because he is actually crap. (It wasn't me!)

A local folk singer and poet thinks he can play harp, whistle and guitar, but he hasn't actually any talent in those direction at all. Though as a poet he is quite good, so he has had discretionary air play on my shows.

So my point?

How much do folk clubs provide an outlet for care in the community?

It sounds harsh, but believe me, I've been there as an organiser.

I hvae had to ban certain individuals. Not because I don't sympathise with them, but I don't want folks to stop coming because they are there too.

Does anyone else empathise with this?

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: pattyClink
Date: 24 Nov 22 - 11:46 AM

Yes. O'Neill, in his famous books which helped preserve and revive Irish traditional playing, stressed that high quality standards were important to present to those you wish to interest in traditional music. We can literally drive people away from our art form if we encourage bad players to perform on a constant basis. We drive out good new/young performers, too, too embarrassed to sit through 'lame crap' to join the group. Apparently you have wound up in a role where you are in charge of 'quality control' for your local listeners, so you can be seen as 'the bad guy'.

Does the local sports team let an incompetent klutz 'make the cut'? Not above the primary school level. Why then let a tone-deaf singer become a regular performer? The 'kindness' is actually unkindness to the audience, and a fat lie to the performer.

No, perfection is not necessary, nowhere near, and people striving to do good music should not be discouraged; and it is hard to make people see the difference between them and people who truly need to get 'the hook'.

As Barney Fife would say 'nip it. nip it in the bud.' As emcee, don't, out of pity, lead a big round of applause for a disaster, it will not end well.   Applause came about in history for a reason, it is a feedback signal, let it work. Audience members, if you don't like crap, don't applaud it, you just make it grow.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Nov 22 - 11:56 AM

I sympathize, Uncle Tone. If people hear bad music on your show, they will assume you can't tell good from bad.

Perhaps you could tell them, "In my opinion, you are not ready yet."

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 Nov 22 - 12:33 PM

Well said, Leeneia. Their reaction will tell you whether they're ready to learn.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 24 Nov 22 - 01:14 PM

Why do it?

Dunning-Kreuger Effect

Revenge - Neil Innes's Protest Song

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 22 - 05:00 PM

this is why well organised folk clubs had good resident singers, so if a floor singer was poor they would go on and bring the quality back up, this is also why floor singers in the past at guest booking clubs did not automatically get a chance to sing.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 25 Nov 22 - 11:17 AM

Well said Sandman.

Leeneia's suggestion is a good one.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: leeneia
Date: 25 Nov 22 - 12:25 PM

Let us also keep in mind that there are two aspects to a performance: the talent of the singer and the quality of the piece. A singer whose voice is not the best can be forgiven if the piece is new, intriguing or unique.

My own voice isn't what it used to be, but I explain to people that they will be hearing something they won't hear anywhere else. They remain interested.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 07:36 AM

There was one session in Edinburgh where a regular was absolutely terrible but was still politely tolerated. The bar manager threw the whole session out.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 08:08 AM

Folk at the Barlow runs singers nights once a month on the first Friday of the month and concerts on the third Friday.

The concerts are arranged as a support act set and two main act sets, no floor singers. The support and main guests are not always to everybody's taste but they are always of a good standard.

The singarounds are round the room and everyone gets a go, good or not so good. Sometimes this means that a poorer peformer brings an interesting song to public view even if the performance is not so good.

This arrangement seems to give a good balance of quality performances and public participation between the two types of event.

In addition we have the annual festival where all performers give their time for free as it is to raise money for the building (many performers really like the hall to sing in!). The result is one of the friendliest festivals that I know of.

Robin

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 08:31 AM

Audiences at all the folk clubs I've been to have always been incredibly supportive of the singers and musicians. That is a good thing in many ways but it does mean that singers who only ever appear at folk clubs might genuinely never realise that they're not great. After all, they always get listened to politely all the way through and receive a round of applause at the end, no matter how good or bad the performance. Compare that with a typical comedy club where you're left in absolutely no doubt whether or not someone has died on their arse.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 05:16 PM

the success of a singaround is not about going round the room.. but going round the room and making sure a poor singer is followed by a good singer, so a thought out rota makes for a good evening.
Rigby i sing in folk clubs and also go out busking, when you go out busking you get an honest reception, i consistently make 30 to 50 an hour, but i practise, and was lucky to be gifted a reasonably good voice

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 22 - 04:11 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSGt49f0kZc
a healthy christmas

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Dec 22 - 04:12 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSGt49f0kZc

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 28 Dec 22 - 02:21 PM

I used to wonder why people kept coming to dance clubs when they never improved. Wondered what they got out of it.
But that was before I started taking an instrument to tune sessions.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: Saucy Songstress
Date: 28 Dec 22 - 03:00 PM

When I first went to folk clubs I was rubbish. I was nervous, my voice was shaky, and I struggled. Fortunately the group was supporting, friendly and lovely to a starting out unaccompanied singer (as I was at the time). I've improved thanks to that encouragement and friendship and would not dream of not offering the same to people who came to either of the two folk clubs I helped start up (both of which are still running), or the original one that I am now back at.

If you think someone's terrible by all means give them a hint on a way to improve something, but to ban someone entirely? No, I wouldn't dream of it.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:22 AM

it is goo to see people improving and listening to advice, but not everybody wants help or thinks they need it, what do you do then?
i think the answer is to place them carefully, so they have a song but are followed by residents or a good singer.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:47 AM

If it's a question of value for money and not inflicting poor performers on paying guests, well I've never been to a 'session' where you pay to get in, so that argument doesn't stand up. The only way less able performers will improve is by the tolerance of others, and Saucy Songstress seems a prime example?

In a folk club with a paid guest normally the better performers will be CHOSEN as support- this is the value for money argument in action. On a residents' night, Sandman's rules seem reasonable- or maybe a less able performer could be quickly followed by a set of tunes, if the ability is there.
With all their faults, folkies are pretty tolerant & that's the only way folk music can survive outside Youtube & the libraries

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 07:19 AM

The trouble is that one folk fan's utter garbage is another's brave upholder of the tradition.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 08:08 AM

I don't think the poor performers are limited to traditional songs, Al. I have seen just as many crap contemporary singer songwriters! Which do we prefer. all forty seven verses of 'Famous flower of serving man' in as many keys and time signatures or a dirge about uninteresting lost loves on an out of tune Yamaha?

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 11:55 AM

true enough Dave.
The thing is though, crap contemporary singers are - apart from the care in the community aspect, and I suppose the educational aspect (the 'singers have to start somewhere' argument) just a pain in the arse to be endured.

The traddy faction however claims a sort of moral high ground. "The only bad thing you can do, is not sing these songs" - one has heard said.
I like singing traditional songs. I don't know how to do the long ballads though. I love Carthy's guitar riff on Famous Flower of Serving Men - but I know I'm not good enoughto do anything but bore the arse off an audience if I attempted it. I know that because I tried to do one of the long songs - Tony Rose's performance inspired me to have a go at Thorneymoor Woods. I was shit.

As Clint Eastwood said - a man should know his limitations. Fortunately Clint isn't there to shoot folksingers who don't. Otherwise I would have been dead.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 12:28 PM

The traddy faction however claims a sort of moral high ground."!
not true, in fact the op, if i remember correctly i have heard sing tradtional songs[ perhaps not exclusively.
so that rather defeats your argument,
the only bad thing quote, in fact
i think this is the quote
You cant damage a song by singing it,the only way you can damage the song is by not singing it" not quite the same Al
a statement with certain weaknesses, imo made by Martin Carthy not all singers of tradtional songs have the same views as Martin.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 12:37 PM

So , Al, I sing tradtional songs but disagree with Martins quote. I believe that is important to have respect for and love for your songs trad or contemporary,and that involves [practising and trying to perform to the best of your ability.
some people are more musical than others, but i believe that most people can put in competent perfomances if they work at it, that is all i ask, and to say
"You cant damage a song by singing it,the only way you can damage the song is by not singing it" is imo wide of the mark
he probably meant that a good song will continue to be sung despite the occasional incompetent performance of it

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 01:34 PM

Well its a point of view, and I have a lot of time for your great talent Sandman.

I'm not sure if everybody should be encouraged to 'have a go' at everything. Some actors shouldn't touch Shakespeare. They might be dynamite at light comedy. Terrific at western films.

And I think its a bit like that with folk songs. Just because you can do it - don't assume everybody else can.
Some people think they can do DIY, but they can't. Its like that with folksong. People look at you. You make it look easy, and they totally misjudge the scale of the task.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 06:33 PM

. I dont assume everyone can, but i do believe that it is a majority rather than a minority that can reach a reasonable degree of competence if they work at it and have a good teacher
well this is where guidance can come in, some people might be ok at one aspect of songs perhaps shanties, years ago in folk clubs this might happen. they were helped and steered in a certain direction[ i do not mean the door]although i have met a very very small amount of totally unmusical people
people were helped and guided towards what they might be able to manage. but i think you have to be positive and positive about people

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 03:43 AM

Maybe. I'm 74 in a couple of weeks.
Personally I feel like I've donated enough of my life trying to run folk clubs often making unreasonable demands on my audience to listen to folksingers ancient and modern who start their spot with:-

I got my guitar out this afternoon (haven't used for ten years) ...hope its in tune!
This is a song I've written/learned this afternnoon.
A lot of words to this one..I had to Google this afternoon.
Hang on! I've forgotten how the tune goes,,,,
etc

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 05:07 AM

An interesting thread; especially why do we tolerate bad performers in folk clubs. I guess lots of us have experienced seemingly talentless people turning up, and distorting the audience’s overall experience of the evening; often with their own family and friends in support, not just occupying the best seats, but talking through everyone else’s spot and then disrupting things by leaving early. I suppose it’s a reminder to the rest of us that we were all a bit rubbish when we started, and everyone has to start somewhere.

We had one keen youngster who would get so nervous that they would storm off in tears before their spot, and regularly had to be coaxed onto the stage and be (limply) supported by ourselves to get through their chosen song. However, payback came a few years later, when they turned up out of the blue, with a flashy new guitar, stylish clothes and more self confidence than the rest of us put together. Their performance was actually the best one of the evening, and put the regulars to shame in terms of stage presence, audience engagement and entertainment value.

So you could argue why do we tolerate some of us old stagers, who turn up every time, confident enough to be under rehearsed, trotting out old songs we’ve long since done to death, yet still having to fumble around with scraps of paper because we still haven’t managed to learn the words after all these years, or when that tricky fourth chord comes in. Thread creep….sorry.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 05:32 AM

there is another way standards could be improved how about some of the singers clubs, booking guests more often, and on guest nights restricting the amount of floorsingers.
another alternative would be for semi pro and pro singers turning up to do floor spots in guest booking clubs , and organisers giving them floor spots, rather than organisers giving spots to inferior performers because they are regular performers and refusing higher standard performers who are capable of and do bookings. believe it or not this happens.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 05:50 AM

apparently this happened to Paul Simon, in a south london folk club in the last century

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 03:19 PM

When he turned up at our Club, we let him play, even though he said he’d only just written the song. I’m sure Martin Carthy sang something similar the previous month.

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 03:21 PM

that made me chuckle

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 05:38 AM

Why do it? I always loved the music & have happy memories of several teacher training colleges around London in the mid-60s where the girls would sit on the floor all around the performers- of whatever musical ability.
I'm sure Paul Simon enjoyed that as much as any young man- I certainly did.....

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 07:55 AM

so it wasn't about the music!

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 03:49 AM

yes, it can be about several things at once ,the music and socialising

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 04:03 AM

It seems to me, reading this thread, that what folk music needs, in order to flourish, is stircter rules about who is allowed to sing.

Perhaps everyone who dares to sing should have a permit, authorised by The Sandman?

Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 06:29 AM

guest, here is a quote which shows that i am not trying to stop people from singing
Subject: RE: Why Do It?
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:22 AM

it is good to see people improving and listening to advice, but not everybody wants help or thinks they need it, what do you do then?
i think the answer is to place them carefully, so they have a song but are followed by residents or a good singer.
so, guest, get your facts right