6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?

Subject: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 06:40 PM

About 2 weeks ago at a modest dance series we tried to dance to what was called a 6/8 Hornpipe. It felt more like dancing Playford, but that may have been the dance.
It was difficult hearing the rhythm at the start.

I have since asked an English music player and a French (Eurobal) player and their reaction was "Hornpipes are 4/4, but I suppose you can dot any rhythm"

The accordian player of the duo who chose the tune is a very professional muso, normally plays and teaches French & Balfolk. Classic "can play anything" kind of musician.

Anyone ever come across a 6/8 hornpipe before?

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: ripov
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 08:47 PM

6/8 no, but theycertainly can be pulled into 12/8,or maybe it started life as variation on an english(3/2)hornpipe which traditionally(although not in sessions)are played as sets of variations on a ground bass?

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: ripov
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 08:48 PM

That's a bass riff to any young'uns reading this

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 09:20 PM

You don't have to 'Pull' a hornpipe into 12/8. Any 4/4 hornpipe played with a dotted or swing feel can be notated in 12/8 with ease. Well 'with ease' is kind of cheeky. It's a lot easier to notate a tune in 4/4 and say to play it with 'Swing feel' than it is to notate it in 12/8.

OK in these days of notation editors, I use Musescore, you can notate in 4/4 and instruct it to play with swing feel, or you can notate in 12/8 with no swing instruction and it will sound the same. Notating in 4/4 is easier but you risk losing the instruction to swing and then get people telling you that you are playing it wrong.

12/8 can be two bars of 6/8 joined together. Perhaps it's all down to feel. I have a theory, or perhaps it's just a daydream, that 'hornpipe' was perhaps once an instruction to 'swing'.

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: ripov
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 04:22 PM

yes 2 bars of 6/8 with first note of the first bar heavily accented the first of the second bar less so

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 04:31 PM

imo what is important for dancing is how the tune is played, is it good to dance to, not how is it notated

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Dec 22 - 10:16 AM

If you use computer notation to write out any dotted hornpipe in 2/4 or 4/4 then play it back, it will sound TOO dotted and snappy. It’s why triplets often fit into hornpipes comfortably too.
A dotted hornpipe played with swing lies somewhere between 2/4 and 6/8 or 4/4 and 12/8. John Kirkpatrick used to tell us this in his workshops!
It certainly not as “dotted” as a strathspey, for example (which can be played almost “double dotted”.

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: Captain Swing
Date: 25 Dec 22 - 04:04 PM

I guess the naming and the notation of the tune both contribute here. If you have a 4/4 tune and you play it with swing then it can still be a reel and notated as such. As soon as you call it a hornpipe then the commitment has been made and any notation needs dotting. Regarding the 6/8 jig, I've got one that has a fair amount of dotting and playing guitar rhythm to it is most unusual.

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: ripov
Date: 27 Dec 22 - 07:26 PM

If you've ever been asked to play at a party where a band have been engaged, you may have had the novel experience of playing a jig accompanied by a drum played in 4/4

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Dec 22 - 06:14 AM

4/4 rhythm beneath 6/8 can be rather lovely.

Have a listen to Sam Sweeney here:


Sam Sweeney - Maid of the Mill

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 22 - 12:20 PM

it depends on whether the purpose of playing dance tunes is to be able to dance to them easily, in my opinion 4/4 rhythm beneath 6/8 does not make me want to get up and dance, if however you want to treat dance music in some other way, as a purely cerebral exercise then it is of interest

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 28 Dec 22 - 12:44 PM

I think Sam has enough rhythm in his playing for that to be very danceable.

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 22 - 02:19 PM

good for you

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: treewind
Date: 29 Dec 22 - 03:00 PM

That Sam Sweeney track is a perfect example of how you can "break the
rules" when you understand the music.

No, of course that performance isn't intended for dancing to - not in
the usual folk (or in this case specifically morris) dance sense any
way. But it sounds lovely. And it's a million miles from the drummer
playing 4/4 behind a jig presumably because he didn't know any better.

As for hornpipes in 6/8 - no, there's no history of that, but it might be someone confusing 6/4 with 3/2, and there were many 3/2 hornpipes in 17th and 18th century England.

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 03:52 AM

Subject: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: Mr Red - PM
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 06:40 PM

About 2 weeks ago at a modest dance series we tried to dance to what was called a 6/8 Hornpipe. It felt more like dancing Playford, but that may have been the dance.
It was difficult hearing the rhythm at the start."

there is part of the original post,
so the subject is whether it is danceable.
hence my comment regarding the danceabilty of the sam sweeney clip i did not suggest that the sam sweeney clip was unpleasant as a listening item. so we are back to how the music is performed rather than anything else.

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 04:12 AM

IIRC, Sam Sweeney makes reference to a recording of Jinky Wells playing a jig and dancing with his bells sounding more like 4/4.

I can't find such a recording on youtube but maybe a Morris buff here knows what it is.

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 05:30 AM

First of all what a super Sam Sweeny track posted 28 Dec 22 - 06:14 AM.

The imposition of 6/8 over 4/4 works pefectly, theoretically and mathematically. I wonder if I can explain without sending everyone to sleep.

[code]

/12 |............|
4/4 |1 2 3 4 |
6/8 |1 + a 2 + a |



|............| dividing Bar into twelve steps

|1 2 3 4 | each beat of the 4/4 keyboards divides into three. This is called compound time and should be notated as 12/8

|1 + a 2 + a | In 6/8 subdivisions of 1/8 notes dividee into two which happens here.

[/code]
If this succeeds in being displayed as I intended (not guarenteed) you should be able to see why this works.

In both 4/4 and 6/8 the first beats coincide. The third beat of 4/4 coincides with the second beat of 6/8. Both of these are exactly halfway through the bar.

It's beats two and four of the 4/4 bar that don't line up with the 6/8. These notes anticipate the "a" parts of the 6/8 and this gives the effect of syncopation in the accompaniment.

If this tune was started by the fiddle and the accompaniment came in later it would have caused little comment. Dancers would have no problem if the tempo was OK.

Rather cheekily it starts with the accompaniment. I like everything about it.

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 05:32 AM

Is it possible for as moderator to get my previous post to display with even spacing?

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 06:20 AM

Sam has/had a video on his Patreon page discussing it. https://www.patreon.com/samsweeney

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 07:25 AM

Let's try the visual again;

  
  /12 |............|  
  4/4 |1  2  3  4  |  
  6/8 |1 + a 2 + a |  
  
  
  

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 09:37 AM

Stanron, thanks for the explaination.

I bought the CD shortly after it was released and, having learned the tune for a Morris side a couple of years previously, I thought I could just sit down and play along. After a WTF moment with the intro, then Sam playing it in Amaj (it's usually in G to accommodate the melodeon players), I sat down to re-learn it. I spent many an hour trying to work out what the hell was going on beneath the jig. Then the whole thing segues into his self-penned "This Shirt Makes Me Look Like a Kite". A truly remarkable track.

I doubt that I would have paid for the patreon lesson even I'd known of its existence.


Mr Red, what was the tune that started this debate?


GUEST, I'd be interested in the Jinky Wells info if you discover it.


Oh, and Sandman . . . . where in the OP does it say this thread is about 'whether it is danceable'?

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 09:52 AM

It felt more like dancing Playford, but that may have been the dance.
It was difficult hearing the rhythm at the start." quote
the op does describe how it felt like to dance, hence i concluded that he was talking about dancing.

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 12:52 PM

Before I joined my first Morris side, I was chatting to the Foreman of a side dancing-out at a pub in Derbyshire. I said to him that I'd love to give it a go but I'd never played for dancing before. He asked me, "Why else would you play?"

It wasn't you was it Sandman?

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 01:00 PM

No.
I also accompany songs and play slow airs, I also played in a concertina quartet., playing tunes that were not specifically for dancing
you are well wide of the mark. i believe playing music is about givin people pleasure, but if i am playing for dancing i try to please the dancers

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 03:24 PM

Sandman, to quote someone up there, "good for you".

Subject: RE: 6/8 Hornpipe - is it possible?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 04:09 AM

Happy New Year, Wassail