Middle 8s

Subject: Middle 8s
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 02:31 PM

Listening to some Beatles stuff the other day and noticed that they use a middle 8 often in their songs. I have started to listen out for it and plenty of other pop songs seem to as well.

Can't say I have noticed a middle 8 much in folk. Unless you count an instrumental break. Am I wrong? If not, anyone have an explanation?

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 02:58 PM

I've always just regarded it as a middle bit that contrasts with the rest of the song. Sometimes there's a different sung bit "life is very short, but there's no ti-hi-hi-hi-hime for fussing and fighting my friends..." or sometimes it's a classy guitar break. It doesn't have to be just eight bars either. I think that some pop song words are so trite, boring and repetitive that the middle eight adds a nice bit of contrast. In folk songs (about which I'm no expert), you tend to have verses with or without choruses which sometimes tell stories which don't need interrupting via classy middle bits. This post is whimsy.

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 04:10 PM

Does a chorus count as a middle 8?

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 04:37 PM

Not usually Stanron. Choruses are usually repeated while middle 8s are not.

Agreed that it need not be 8 bars, Steve, they are usually between 8 and 13 I am told. But I am not sure about the justification being triteness.

Does any style other than pop use them? I think they did exist before pop culture took root but I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 04:37 PM

As i understand it, a middle eight was first used in early 20 century pop music ,the beatles used that idea, much traditional song is older than this, could this possibly be your explanation

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:01 PM

Could be, Dick.

I thought though, and I accept that I may well be wrong, that they were used earlier. Maybe in Jazz?

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:03 PM

I didn't mean to say that trititudinousness necessitated a middle eight, Dave. Plenty of tritely-lyricked pop songs don't have a middle eight. Just that a middle eight can leaven the bread somewhat...

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:10 PM

Gotcha. I like the word trititudinousness too :-D

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 06:58 PM

I used to say trititudinessitude but Merriam-Webster didn't like it. :-)

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 03:53 AM

Jazz is a music genre that originated in the African-American communities of New Orleans, Louisiana in the late 19th and early 20th centuries,

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: GUEST,Henry Piper (of Ottery )
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 09:38 AM

As a Drummer in a Dixieland/Trad Jazz band I can assure you that "Middle Eights" or as they are sometimes known "Bridges" are very common in both Jazz composed tunes and popular tunes that have found their way into the standard Jazz repertoire, as noted they are not always exactly 8 bars long, and are sometimes repeated during playing.

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 09:49 AM

Henry, yes i know that
i did not say that they were not, my point was that bridges are early 20 century or very late 19 century, and that many trad songs are older than that, Which might explain why they were not found in what Dave calls folk songs

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 10:30 AM

I used to attend a song-writing group a few years back, which was "mentored" by a musician from a well-known "indie" band. It was a totally different approach to song-writing from what I had been doing on my own: I nearly always wrote the words first, then the tune, then added chords that I knew I could play, and sometimes there would be an instrumental break - usually just an extra run through the main tune or chorus tune.
But in this group it was - write a chord sequence first, then see if you can fit a tune on to those chords, a middle eight, then words last! But yes, middle eights, nines, tens, were definitely required!

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 10:39 AM

I'd go further and suggest that choruses as found in pop songs are also mostly uncharacteristic of British folk song.

There are lots of traditional songs that have simple refrains or burdens, often consisting of a few nonsense words run together at the end of each verse. There are some folk songs which simply repeat one of the verses as a chorus, with the same melody as the other verses. There are quite a few where the last line or couplet of each verse is repeated. But although there are some songs that do have a full-blown chorus with its own melody, they are relatively uncommon (albeit perhaps a bit over-represented in folk clubs because they are good to sing along to).

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 11:40 AM

so I suppose this helps us define a uk folk style?

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 12:39 PM

Going to what Henry Piper said, is a middle 8 the same as a bridge? I understood that they were 2 different things but my music theory is too sketchy to say why.

Just thought of something too. In Morris tunes (Princess Royal springs to mind) there are sections that slow down for individual capers. As a middle 8 is classed as a section that changes tune, tempo or style, I wonder if the capers are early middle 8s :-D

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 12:44 PM

Folk songs tend to have a good narrative, where the words are often more important than the tune, and so rarely need a middle eight diversion. Pop songs though rely on a lot of repetition to quickly hook the listener, and the middle eight bars is often a good way to allow that repetition:
Verse 1 and chorus
Verse 2 and chorus
Middle eight
Verse 3 and chorus
Instrumental and chorus
Repeated middle eight
Repeated verse 1 and chorus
Repeat chorus and fade out

It’s also economic in that for only three measly verses you can get the catchy chorus in at least six times. In some ways it always avoids the risk of monotony with all the repetition because it briefly diverts attention away from the main melody, before firmly reinstating it, sometimes by modulating to a higher key as well. Arguably some pop songs just don’t work well without it - try singing Buddy Holly’s Everyday or the Everlys’ All I Have to Do is Dream without it, or Yesterday even.

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Mo the caller
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 04:45 PM

Whats that song about the structure of a pop song.
One of the lines "here comes the middle eight"

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 05:50 AM

If many of the early jazz musicians came from marching bands I wonder if the middle 8 is descended from the trio section of marches?

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 07:07 AM

“Guest Jerry” (3 posts above) sums it up perfectly.
Generally speaking, songs have two basic formats.

Type 1
Chorus- verse - chorus - verse - etc

Type 2
Verse - verse - bridge - verse

There are, of course, many variants - which is healthy.

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 07:09 AM

Anybody else ever heard of the “middle 8/bridge” being termed as “the incidental”?

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Stanron
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 06:12 AM

A lot of 'Folk' songs have a structure that runs

AABA

The first melody line is repeated, an alternative melody line follows and then the first line returns to finish the verse. I have no difficulty in seeing this as a micro version of verse, verse, middle 8, verse.

Fractal music perhaps?

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 08:18 AM

Could well be, Stanron, but I get the impression that middle 8 is used primarily just once or twice in a song. I could be wrong though and see what you mean anyway.

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 09:32 AM

Then there's the middle bit of Something In The Air by Thunderclap Newman which rather extends the concept!

Thunderclap

LFF

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 11:24 AM

> descended from the trio section of marches

.... and in turn from the minuet and trio, which became "the standard third movement in the four-movement classical symphony".

But why eight bars? My mind can't rid itself of the picture of a tunesmith in Tin Pan Alley who's paid by the bar ("Whaddya mean, giving me a tune that only fills half a page?"), who happens to have one-and-a-half tunes in his head, and zips them together to save wasting the half-tune. Guess how many bars long it was :-) ?

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Stanron
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 11:47 AM

A lot of the songs in the 'Great American Song book' use a structure that is rarely seen today. The 'verse' is a kind of introduction that only occurs once, and is some times omitted altogether today. The rest of the song, the bit we all recognise, is a kind of chorus that can be repeated. It might contain a middle 8.

Structure can change and develop over time.

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 12:48 PM

but it appears in tradtional song it had not done that before the 20th century

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 05:55 PM

Dunno about minuet/scherzo and trio. The trio is a contrasting section that's generally a lot longer than a typical middle 8. It's often taken at a slightly slower tempo than the minuet/scherzo. Occasionally there's more than one trio, such as in the third movement of the New World Symphony and in a minuet of Mozart's Gran Partita and in his Clarinet Quintet. Quite often the trio is played more than once (Beethoven 7, Beethoven 9 and many more).

In all these cases the trio, the "instrumental break" or the middle 8 are there to provide contrast, an important element in any genre of music. In classical music, other devices may be theme and variations, rondo and sonata form (with contrasting first and second subjects and development and recapitulation sections). The sentiment for providing contrast within a whole that still manages to hold together is the same in all genres, though the devices used are legion.

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: GUEST,Ian B
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 11:35 AM

"Whats that song about the structure of a pop song.
One of the lines "here comes the middle eight""

Could you be thinking of The Song Song by The McCalmans?

Song Song - The McCalmans on YouTube

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 04:16 PM

Wickedpedia says :-
"In music theory, the middle eight or bridge is the B section of a 32-bar form. This section has a significantly different melody from the rest of the song and usually occurs after the second "A" section in the AABA song form. It is also called a middle eight because it happens in the middle of the song and the length is generally eight bars."


Dolmetsch online says
" in the AABA structure, common to certain sonata and symphonic forms, B is called the 'release', 'channel' or 'bridge'. If B section is eight bars long, the 'release' is called a 'middle eight' "

So, just another name for a compositional structure that's familiar to classical musicians.

Jake

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Mo the caller
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 09:45 AM

Yes Ian that's the song I was thinking of
Thanks

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 04:10 PM

Covering a lot of the same ground as How the Beatles Destroyed Rock & Roll here.

All of the structures were known and used before the 1920s. What pop media brought was the three minute rule of 10"-78rpm shellac. The hard maths of signatures, bars & bpms meant only "small-time" acts need apply.

No matter how long your 1800s halyard was or how deep the bilge water... you had three minutes to get all the shantying in. Calypso, bluegrass, jazz... all the same.

Nobody even thought to time the original live Rhapsody in Blue, 18 minutes is a good guess. The first release had to be split over two 12" discs and even then was edited way down. The piano roll was two minutes! Jazz fans had to wait until the 1950s to hear it as intended by the artists.

Even after they hit the "big-time," the Beatles kept with their bread-and-butter of albums of more marketable hip three minute ditties and the small-time format still rules the pop awards, charts &c in 2023.

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Jan 23 - 07:06 AM

Our family copy of the William Tell overture covered four 78RPM sides. I used to tease my brother by playing the last side, at which he'd come running in from the garden to watch the Lone Ranger .... but then I sat on one of the records, and we were left with only the first two sections.

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 09:18 AM

> Covering a lot of the same ground as How the Beatles Destroyed Rock &
> Roll here.

Just been through said thread, and coming up with the bends .... Hoooo, but point taken.

You are, of course, right about the three-minute attention span: Warhol's "famous for fifteen minutes" is oversized by a factor of five, as we don't have time nowadays for anything more than headlines and snap decisions. I used to be viewed as odd at work for taking half an hour to carefully craft a reply to an e-mail; and this reply took long enough (with repeated previews to check URLs work) that a 'Cat-nap had occurred by the time I finally submitted it, so I had to save it externally. Is the Cat trying to tell me something?

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: Sol
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 09:51 AM

I'm of the opinion that the average attention span for a 'pop' record is approximately 3 mins. Whether that is instinctive or pre-programmed by previous recording time restrictions, who knows? FWIW, when someone treats the company to a ten or more verse ballad, after the fifth verse my head is somewhere else. ('Desolation Row' excluded :wink:)

Subject: RE: Middle 8s
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 13 Jan 23 - 10:46 PM

MaJoc: My bad. I was thinking of Wald & a few bits in the book. I had forgotten about that thread or I could have warned you. ;)


Sol: The squeeze is on. RKO Pictures was David Sarnoff's merger of the old Keith-Albee-Orpheum vaudeville/cinema chains under RCA. The small time act structure and circuits were there for a reason long before Tin Pan Alley or shellac.

The sweet spot for a top 40 single on vinyl eventually settled in around four minutes.

By contrast, smart phones are pop media crack cocaine. The Wellerman TikTok is just under a minute and the platform prefers one keep it nearer to half that. The ytube clone is branded “Shorts.”