UK Petition re right to play music

Subject: UK Petition re right to play music
From: Felipa
Date: 18 May 23 - 04:51 PM

https://chng.it/g5XFmXRNVF
on a petition site called "Change.org":

Petition started by Fiona Fey:

Environmental Health officers (EHO) across the country have come to misinterpret the law on statutory nuisance. Statutory nuisance was meant to deal with matters such as people living next door to dog kennels, car racing tracks and night clubs - not domestic music playing.’

Can the law around music practice be made clearer so this doesn’t continue to happen?

Last week I was served a noise abatement notice by Lewisham Council that forbids me to play any musical instrument in my home at any time.

I am a musician, it is my job to practise.

If I do Lewisham Council can force entry, confiscate all my instruments and fine me £2000.

The hours I was practising were usually between 11 and 3 - not early morning or late at night, the instruments I was practising regularly were guitar, singing and low whistle (70-80db - the volume of a conversation)

Others have now been in contact to say the same has happened to them.

The Lewisham Environmental Health Officers (EHO)s stated that volume and time of day is irrelevant, any music noise that can be heard by someone else can be classified as a nuisance.

The EHOs told me TV and radio are ’living noise’ but that the playing of an instrument is not.

Why on earth isn’t the playing of musical instruments considered living noise?

It is not only people who make their living from music, it is so important to protect this as simply a form of enjoyment, self expression and relaxation and it should not need any further justification.

Over the past few years the music industry has got so much harder. Now governing bodies show that, not only are they doing little to help, they are actively penalising musicians who are trying to make a living.

This is particularly shocking from Lewisham- after being the London Borough of Culture 2022

Situations of this nature should have an official definition - decibels, time of day etc

They should not be left up to the opinion of whichever EHO officer is investigating.
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I find this case incredible; that Fiona has been ordered not to play musical instruments in her own home at any time of day. And she plays mild-sounding accoustic instruments, which she usually practices in the middle of the day. I'm not so sure that noise regulations of this nature can always be strictly defined by volume and time; sometimes specific agreements need to be brokered between the person who makes a complaint of noise and the person accused of making the noise.

You can give your support to the petition via the link above, aka
https://www.change.org/p/defend-the-right-to-play-musical-instruments-twitter-com-fionafeymusic-status-1655140847870935040

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there is a comment on the site from someone who claims "Lewisham council have a slightly different version of events re petitioners failure to engage and dialogue" Do you know anything more about this case?

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: Felipa
Date: 18 May 23 - 05:00 PM

Fiona Fey also made a video about her conflict with the council
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIQ-if1xm7U

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 19 May 23 - 03:08 AM

Disgraceful

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 May 23 - 05:12 AM

I have signed, FWIW, but I'm not altogether convinced that a petition is the best way to deal with a jobsworth. I don't know whether the present victim is a member of the Musicians' Union, but shouldn't they be taking an interest anyway, on behalf of all the other potentially affected musicians?

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 19 May 23 - 06:02 AM

I heard this on the radio yesterday, covered by Jeremy Vine. The complaints appear to have come from one person who is a music teacher! (work that one out! I can't) I think Richard may have the answer. The council are relying upon Felipa not having the funds to fight back, however, there is a lot of support for her.
I think the council's statement to the BBC needs to be repeated here if possible, and the correct bodies, starting with the MU as Richard says, need to be informed. My Grandaughter works for equity and I will let her know the situation.
Yes, you can win against a council. For example, a Traveller friend of mine has his horses impounded when other illegal eviction methods failed. Unbeknown to the council he was also a multi-millionaire, by inheritance, I can't give details because his family connections are too well known. He employed a top barrister and team of legal Herbert's, and Bankrupted Rochdale Council.
Not a lot of use to Felipa but encouraging. Councils do not like bad publicity. Please keep us informed Felipa, I'm sure you will have a lot of support here on Mudcat. I was born 5 miles up the road from Lewisham. Some of my family still live there. I got out to a better more civilised area in the North of England.

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 May 23 - 06:53 AM

I am not a lawyer, but statutory nuisance is defined by the Environmental Protection Act as "noise emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance" It is not enough that it can be heard outside the premises, it must also be creating a nuisance - which is what the council officer said. A nuisance can be at any time of day, although it could be argued that sounds are more likely to create a nuisance when people are trying to sleep.

I agree that a petition is not the way to resolve this. The law is not going to be changed to exclude playing music, because in some circumstances that may indeed be a nuisance. It is up to the courts to decide whether that applies in each individual case. She needs to apply to the court, and should take legal advice. The MU may be able to help.

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: Felipa
Date: 19 May 23 - 09:26 AM

Fiona (not me) wrote in comments below her video that she thought of suing for harassment but the solution for her was to move away. The neighbour who complained is a music teacher but doesn't play any music at home and apparently says musicians should practice in studios. Fiona wrote in a reply to Peter Straffer on 8 May:

"the fact that they define it as 'any noise that can be heard' is a clear misinterpretation of a very vague law.

"I was going to appeal, but after considering the time and financial investment, the burden of proof being on me not the other way round (the 'expert' they'd consult would be the EHO) plus the fact that I'd be unable to practice in the meantime, and living with some very malicious neighbours, the safest thing was to move.

But I do want to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else."
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Fiona doesn't say whether or not she is a union member
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There were a few comments on the Change petition site from other people who also had problems with complaints from neighbours re their playing music. And on the youtube page, a music teacher makes a comment that some of her students have similar difficulties: "occasionally when a pupil says they are unable to practise at home because of complaints from neighbours my heart truly sinks."

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 19 May 23 - 11:05 AM

I really know what it is like to have s***tweasels for neighbours, married to a Romany Gypsy. That said our neighbours nowadays are brilliant. One is seriously ill but says my practice soothes her. I hope Fiona lands on her feet.

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: GUEST,Roch
Date: 19 May 23 - 12:41 PM

When exactly was my local council bankrupted by travellers, Nick Dow? I can't recall this and neither can any of my relations or friends.

Roch Boy

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 23 - 01:05 PM

In answer to why a music teacher would complain about someone practicing music, I would guess it is because she is usually paid to listen to people practice while, in this case, she has to listen for free!

I am not supporting the complainant and I think if this action becomes the norm, it will severely affect many folk musicians who simply cannot afford studio time for practice. I also think that the council EHOs have been both wrong and heavy handed. Fiona desrves all the support she can get

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 23 - 01:05 PM

...and where is Richard Bridge when you need him? :-D

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 May 23 - 02:40 PM

Hanging out in other venues these days, but still alive and kicking!

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 19 May 23 - 05:21 PM

Nick, i was born in the london borough of lewisham

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 May 23 - 04:11 AM

Yes, I remember you saying now you have reminded me.

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 May 23 - 04:13 AM

In answer to Roch I'll just mention the name Walter Lloyd. (Late) Strictly speaking not even a Traveller, but did live in a wagon a lot of the time.

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 May 23 - 05:44 AM

As with everything, there has to be a balance. Music, like any other sound, can be nuisance if it intrudes on the neighbours to a sufficient degree. I live near a pub, and on occasion they have events there where the music can reach levels which become intrusive. Fortunately this happens only very occasionally, and we are able to tolerate it. If it were every night I might think differently.

Whether noise creates a statutory nuisance depends on the circumstances in each case, so is not as simple as specifying times and noise levels which are acceptable.

Whilst as a musician myself I naturally sympathise with Fiona, we don't know all the facts. The council says it was a last resort due to her failure to engage, she claims otherwise (and the YouTube videos appear to support this). It should have been for a court to decide between them, but for understandable reasons she chose not to fight it.

Subject: RE: UK Petition re right to play music
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 May 23 - 02:24 PM

Have the laws been recently changed? I was always led to believe that for any sound pollution to be unlawful it had to reach above certain decibels. As a ceilidh band caller/musician I can remember some village halls having a metre of some sort and if the band's decibels exceeded the allowed amount the band's electricity shut off.

Also for any council nuisance neighbours (and I've had many) we always had to fill in interminable reports over several weeks before any action would be taken, and that was for far worse things than playing music loud. I smell a rat!

Having said that, for me the worse occurrence is when a close neighbour plays loud streamed music with the windows open. Or even worse that dull bass pulse that reverberates through the walls, and you can't even hear the music!

I often practice concertina at home and I live in a terraced council house. Never had any complaints!