Releasing covers by old dead songwriters

Subject: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: matthewdechant
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 12:03 AM

When releasing a cover of a song by someone like Cyril Tawney or Graeme Miles: someone who is dead, relatively obscure, and very much intended for their songs to be part of a folk tradition, how best should one go about this? Should you try and track down the labels to secure a liscence, even though many of the labels are old, unreachable, or defunct? Or should you just take your chances and release it even though you don't have a liscence?

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: r.padgett
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 02:00 AM

Good question ~ is the song traditional or written?
PRS may help and I think Graeme Miles contact Ken Hall (of Staithes) has some control over his songs that will be copyright

Ray

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 11:55 AM

The song was written by them.
-Matthew

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: Anne Lister
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 09:19 AM

You should go through PRS. Whether the writers are alive or dead, or "relatively obscure", there is copyright involved and unless they've been dead long enough for the copyright to have elapsed someone is entitled to receive the royalties. You don't have to track down the labels. The song is the important thing, not the recording of the song. Labels own the recordings. The copyright of the song will have been left to an heir.

As to whether or not the writers "very much intended for their songs to be part of a folk tradition" - the holder of the copyright will be aware of this and may give their permission for you to record without payment, but you can't take it for granted and simply bypass the system.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 10:58 AM

Old dead songwriters, is no excuse. In the UK and Europe - as well as many other territories, copyright lasts for 70 years after the death of the writer. If a joint authorship, 70 years after the death of the last surviving writer.   In the UK the PRS/MCPS and any publishers will likely control the rights for 'covers'.

As to recordings, sometimes the recordings will be out of copyright, but the songs that have been recorded will be in copyright - as above. So royalties will have to be paid to heirs, or whoever was involved.

In the UK it is 70 years after publication date of the recording - after that anybody can issue the recordings - as long as royalties are paid on any songs performed/recorded that are in copyright.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 11:05 AM

I should have added that anybody can theoretically re-issue UK/EU pre-1963 recordings, as long as royalties are paid on any songs recorded that are still in copyright.   They extended the copyright duration of recordings to 70 years for those issued in'63 up. As I say elsewhere, UK EU copyright for the songs themselves is 70 years after death of the composer/author/arranger.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 01:10 PM

Most recordings go through MCPS and quote the publishing company. ie Sally Free and easy (Cyril Tawney- Neptune -MCPS) Google should give details of MCPS membership.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 02:27 PM

I should have added the system is far from fair. MCPS work on a percentage system, which means the more records you sell the more money you get from the pot, no matter who writes the songs. Just a quick story, I recorded a song penned by a well known writer on the folk scene. When payment was due I offered to send the payment directly to the songwriter. You could hear the squealing from the middlemen a mile away! However I got a very complimentary letter from the song writer, who never saw a penny by the way. Draw your own conclusions.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: Anne Lister
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 04:46 PM

All the same, Nick, I have received monies from MCPS/PRS for recordings of my songs. It's based on how many copies of the albums were manufactured. There's also the issue of monies if and when the recordings are played on the radio (let's not discuss streaming services, to keep my language clean) and if and when the songs are played live on any suitably licensed stage. Or of course used in any soundtrack for film/video/game etc. The performer doesn't have to pay these, but the songwriter or songwriter's estate loses out if the songs aren't correctly attributed.
It's not a fortune, as my accounts demonstrate, but the point is that you can't assume that a deceased songwriter's songs are free for anyone to take over.
Yes, I too have had performers (particularly from the US) give me cheques for their calculation of their liability for recording my songs. Never had any squeals from the middlemen because the middlemen never had to hear about it. Not going to happen these days because I've got a publisher instead of doing it all myself.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 04:47 AM

Yes, that's the other side of the argument. It really depends on how much you feel financial gain is important. No judgment here at all. If I wrote a song I would be happy with anybody singing it to their heart's content, and would not give a bugger about dosh, but that's me and I'm not typical. I have always earned my living outside of folk as a broadcaster, and now I'm happily retired. (Don't get me started on the BBC and payments and royalties). I just don't like middlemen which is why I have turned down any number of recording contracts that have come my way. That said I had forgotten how MCPS charges on presumed sales! I wonder what suit thought that one up. Here I go again! Take no notice.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 07:10 AM

As long as you clearly credit (who you believe to be) the writer, and tag any mp3s etc, no-one can accuse you of nefarious intent.

You have to distinguish between mechanicals (sales of hard copy) and performance royalties (radio/TV and streaming, though streaming is probably on a portal by portal basis): The only difficulty if money came your way is whether the writer's rights may have been divided by some contract back in the day: but that would be a nice problem to have, and probably wouldn't involve you unless you claimed any sort of share - so don't spend it all at once and keep the records.

There is no doubt a PRS notification portal; good luck with that, you'll probably have to pay them first.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Oriel
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:31 AM

These aren't 'covers' anymore than doing a song by Schubert would be a cover. Songs aren't welded to the person who wrote them - or the person who first sang them. But yes please - credit the writer and see if they are registered with PRS or equivalent.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:48 AM

We are talking about modern copyright works. Yes they are welded to the person who wrote them for 70 years after they die, credit and licensing is required if commercial use is being made of them.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: Anne Lister
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 12:33 PM

The issue isn't whether or not a songwriter wants their songs to be sung. I'm sure most writers are delighted when someone picks up one of their creations. The issue is about recording one of these songs and whether it's acceptable to do so without following normal copyright procedure, whether or not the writer is still alive. (Again, speaking from bitter experience, I have had at least one experience of a well-known folk performer who recorded one of my songs and never paid a penny in royalties. As far as he was concerned - and he is now long gone, btw - I should be grateful he had recorded it. He made money selling his albums, of course, but somehow paying the writer didn't occur to him and he became quite unpleasant when asked about it.)

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:20 PM

I think from my point of view that I want to keep banging on that what seemed like a long dead songwriter to the initial thread writer, is in fact a modern recently deceased party in copyright terms. I looked Cyril Tawney up - he died in 2005, and Graeme Miles in 2013! So that is hardly long time dead, or on any margins - when (C) is 70 years after death. Schubert died in 1828 - so I don't get where the comparison to Schubert comes in!    One day John Lennon's solo written songs will be out of copyright, (he died in 1980), but until then you still have to license them - modern composed/authored folk music is no different to any other genre unless just an arrangement of an already trad. work.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:24 PM

My father died in 1997 and I have heard from people wanting to record some of his songs. I don't expect them to ignore copyright just because he has passed away.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:53 PM

Anne, re your above post would you rather the well known singer had not recorded your song? Would you not make more financially from the added respect and gigs you may have received as a result than the pittance you described above, or is this a matter of principle?

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: Anne Lister
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 08:25 AM

Nick, I received no new respect or gigs as a result of his recording of my song. The singer concerned was Derek Brimstone, and I have yet to hear of any reactions at all to his recording of "Icarus". Nearly every other musician or group who has/have recorded "Icarus" have gone through the proper procedures or, as I said above, have found ways to send me the money otherwise due. I have no idea why he behaved in the way he did, which was, by the way, unpleasant in the extreme, but I doubt very much if he intended for me to receive benefits in kind. My assumption is that he wanted to avoid the paperwork, and did so.
As to whether I had rather he hadn't recorded it - I don't know. All I know is that he did, and it still rankles. Point of principle - well, yes, it is rather a principle of mine that if I, or anyone else, make a commercial recording of someone else's song then I, or anyone else, should follow the correct procedure unless there's a really, really good reason not to.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 10:53 AM

OK no argument there then. Each to their own.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 11:55 AM

The song was written by them.
-Matthew

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 10:58 AM

Old dead songwriters, is no excuse. In the UK and Europe - as well as many other territories, copyright lasts for 70 years after the death of the writer. If a joint authorship, 70 years after the death of the last surviving writer.   In the UK the PRS/MCPS and any publishers will likely control the rights for 'covers'.

As to recordings, sometimes the recordings will be out of copyright, but the songs that have been recorded will be in copyright - as above. So royalties will have to be paid to heirs, or whoever was involved.

In the UK it is 70 years after publication date of the recording - after that anybody can issue the recordings - as long as royalties are paid on any songs performed/recorded that are in copyright.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 11:05 AM

I should have added that anybody can theoretically re-issue UK/EU pre-1963 recordings, as long as royalties are paid on any songs recorded that are still in copyright.   They extended the copyright duration of recordings to 70 years for those issued in'63 up. As I say elsewhere, UK EU copyright for the songs themselves is 70 years after death of the composer/author/arranger.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 01:10 PM

Most recordings go through MCPS and quote the publishing company. ie Sally Free and easy (Cyril Tawney- Neptune -MCPS) Google should give details of MCPS membership.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 02:27 PM

I should have added the system is far from fair. MCPS work on a percentage system, which means the more records you sell the more money you get from the pot, no matter who writes the songs. Just a quick story, I recorded a song penned by a well known writer on the folk scene. When payment was due I offered to send the payment directly to the songwriter. You could hear the squealing from the middlemen a mile away! However I got a very complimentary letter from the song writer, who never saw a penny by the way. Draw your own conclusions.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 04:47 AM

Yes, that's the other side of the argument. It really depends on how much you feel financial gain is important. No judgment here at all. If I wrote a song I would be happy with anybody singing it to their heart's content, and would not give a bugger about dosh, but that's me and I'm not typical. I have always earned my living outside of folk as a broadcaster, and now I'm happily retired. (Don't get me started on the BBC and payments and royalties). I just don't like middlemen which is why I have turned down any number of recording contracts that have come my way. That said I had forgotten how MCPS charges on presumed sales! I wonder what suit thought that one up. Here I go again! Take no notice.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 07:10 AM

As long as you clearly credit (who you believe to be) the writer, and tag any mp3s etc, no-one can accuse you of nefarious intent.

You have to distinguish between mechanicals (sales of hard copy) and performance royalties (radio/TV and streaming, though streaming is probably on a portal by portal basis): The only difficulty if money came your way is whether the writer's rights may have been divided by some contract back in the day: but that would be a nice problem to have, and probably wouldn't involve you unless you claimed any sort of share - so don't spend it all at once and keep the records.

There is no doubt a PRS notification portal; good luck with that, you'll probably have to pay them first.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Oriel
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:31 AM

These aren't 'covers' anymore than doing a song by Schubert would be a cover. Songs aren't welded to the person who wrote them - or the person who first sang them. But yes please - credit the writer and see if they are registered with PRS or equivalent.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 11:48 AM

We are talking about modern copyright works. Yes they are welded to the person who wrote them for 70 years after they die, credit and licensing is required if commercial use is being made of them.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:20 PM

I think from my point of view that I want to keep banging on that what seemed like a long dead songwriter to the initial thread writer, is in fact a modern recently deceased party in copyright terms. I looked Cyril Tawney up - he died in 2005, and Graeme Miles in 2013! So that is hardly long time dead, or on any margins - when (C) is 70 years after death. Schubert died in 1828 - so I don't get where the comparison to Schubert comes in!    One day John Lennon's solo written songs will be out of copyright, (he died in 1980), but until then you still have to license them - modern composed/authored folk music is no different to any other genre unless just an arrangement of an already trad. work.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:53 PM

Anne, re your above post would you rather the well known singer had not recorded your song? Would you not make more financially from the added respect and gigs you may have received as a result than the pittance you described above, or is this a matter of principle?

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 10:53 AM

OK no argument there then. Each to their own.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 01:24 PM

My father died in 1997 and I have heard from people wanting to record some of his songs. I don't expect them to ignore copyright just because he has passed away.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: Anne Lister
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 09:19 AM

You should go through PRS. Whether the writers are alive or dead, or "relatively obscure", there is copyright involved and unless they've been dead long enough for the copyright to have elapsed someone is entitled to receive the royalties. You don't have to track down the labels. The song is the important thing, not the recording of the song. Labels own the recordings. The copyright of the song will have been left to an heir.

As to whether or not the writers "very much intended for their songs to be part of a folk tradition" - the holder of the copyright will be aware of this and may give their permission for you to record without payment, but you can't take it for granted and simply bypass the system.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: Anne Lister
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 04:46 PM

All the same, Nick, I have received monies from MCPS/PRS for recordings of my songs. It's based on how many copies of the albums were manufactured. There's also the issue of monies if and when the recordings are played on the radio (let's not discuss streaming services, to keep my language clean) and if and when the songs are played live on any suitably licensed stage. Or of course used in any soundtrack for film/video/game etc. The performer doesn't have to pay these, but the songwriter or songwriter's estate loses out if the songs aren't correctly attributed.
It's not a fortune, as my accounts demonstrate, but the point is that you can't assume that a deceased songwriter's songs are free for anyone to take over.
Yes, I too have had performers (particularly from the US) give me cheques for their calculation of their liability for recording my songs. Never had any squeals from the middlemen because the middlemen never had to hear about it. Not going to happen these days because I've got a publisher instead of doing it all myself.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: Anne Lister
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 12:33 PM

The issue isn't whether or not a songwriter wants their songs to be sung. I'm sure most writers are delighted when someone picks up one of their creations. The issue is about recording one of these songs and whether it's acceptable to do so without following normal copyright procedure, whether or not the writer is still alive. (Again, speaking from bitter experience, I have had at least one experience of a well-known folk performer who recorded one of my songs and never paid a penny in royalties. As far as he was concerned - and he is now long gone, btw - I should be grateful he had recorded it. He made money selling his albums, of course, but somehow paying the writer didn't occur to him and he became quite unpleasant when asked about it.)

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: Anne Lister
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 08:25 AM

Nick, I received no new respect or gigs as a result of his recording of my song. The singer concerned was Derek Brimstone, and I have yet to hear of any reactions at all to his recording of "Icarus". Nearly every other musician or group who has/have recorded "Icarus" have gone through the proper procedures or, as I said above, have found ways to send me the money otherwise due. I have no idea why he behaved in the way he did, which was, by the way, unpleasant in the extreme, but I doubt very much if he intended for me to receive benefits in kind. My assumption is that he wanted to avoid the paperwork, and did so.
As to whether I had rather he hadn't recorded it - I don't know. All I know is that he did, and it still rankles. Point of principle - well, yes, it is rather a principle of mine that if I, or anyone else, make a commercial recording of someone else's song then I, or anyone else, should follow the correct procedure unless there's a really, really good reason not to.

Subject: RE: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: r.padgett
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 02:00 AM

Good question ~ is the song traditional or written?
PRS may help and I think Graeme Miles contact Ken Hall (of Staithes) has some control over his songs that will be copyright

Ray

Subject: Releasing covers by old dead songwriters
From: matthewdechant
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 12:03 AM

When releasing a cover of a song by someone like Cyril Tawney or Graeme Miles: someone who is dead, relatively obscure, and very much intended for their songs to be part of a folk tradition, how best should one go about this? Should you try and track down the labels to secure a liscence, even though many of the labels are old, unreachable, or defunct? Or should you just take your chances and release it even though you don't have a liscence?