Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)

Subject: Another preserve trad folk songs (melodies) thread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Feb 24 - 12:07 PM

If there is one thing that the Mudcat Cafe is not short if, it is threads about what is and how to save traditional music. Today on the Facebook page (where we try to keep it to announcements of upcoming music events and links to online performances and photos) a question was asked about preserving the melodies of folk songs. The discussion can move over here.

For your reference, the discussions that happen here at Mudcat are linked (they'll appear at the top of the page soon) and make it easier to find all of the nuances and examples in one place.

It started:

FAO: Folkie Musos.
Should trad folk songs be preserved in aspic or reconstructed for the modern day? I don't mean lyrically, but the melody.
Think BellowHead as opposed to ?? finger in the ear "neee-ah'

There a chin-scratching emoji in the bottom line.

This is the full dump of the conversation before remarks were closed, line markers and all:

Sandra Robinson
Why not? my band like to keep folk in repertoire to demonstrate its not dead let it evolve! No eeeh- aaar finger I thr ear. It seems young folk artists have gone down the almost classical Playford ensemble style with a classical sound. Especially the English acoustic artists.
2h

Fred Keller
I think of it as a continuum. On one end are people "curating the museum," so to speak: Maintaining as pure a traditional form as possible for future generations. But if folk music is a living art form it must be made malleable, it must change, evolve, twist and turn. And that's the other end of the spectrum: The freedom to use the folk process ??
2h

Liz Conway
Fred Keller agree absolutely. I suspect trying to preserve it "in aspic"would be like trying to stop the tide coming in.
2h

Fred Keller
It's a question I've wondered about for some time. I write a lot of original music using traditional genre forms.
I personally believe part of the problem is that in this era of commercialized art and instant communication/transmission, folk music in the older sense (i.e., music by folk, for folk in a largely regional context) doesn't truly exist without intention. That means we all have a responsibility and an obligation to do both: Keep the old ways from becoming lost and to show how these old forms can be relevant and current.
2h

Sally LA Stamford
Author
For instance, I'm listening to this
https://jimmoray.bandcamp.com/album/skulk
Skulk, by Jim Moray
JIMMORAY.BANDCAMP.COM
Skulk, by Jim Moray
Skulk, by Jim Moray
2h

Mary Smith
Sally LA Stamford Personally I'm a fan of Jim Moray.
48m

Matt DeBlass
I think once music stops evolving and changing it stops being "traditional" and becomes "historical."
I also feel that finding a new take on an old song while still keeping a sense of its roots is one of the more challenging, but most interesting, things about playing traditional (or "traditionally inspired" if you're that kind of purist) music.
2h
Share
Kathy Wallis
I think there's room for both
2h

Sally LA Stamford
Author
We 'jazz songs up' but always start off studying the original roots of them first, to see which direction to go in.
2h

Susan Csikos
Since when are folk songs exempt from the folk process?
2h
Share
Sally LA Stamford
Author
?? Susan, I have just had a conversation with someone on WhatsApp about that...there are them wot don't want things to evolve
May be an image of text that says 'Hmmmm. 13:46 You know my views on shanties 13:47 Times they are a changing.... Thank god 13:49 Hmmmmm. You know my views on that too!'
2h
Edited

Steve Mundy
The tradition is a living breathing thing and constanly evolving as peoples lives and history changes. There's room for both in my opinion. Keeping things fresh helps keep it all going.
2h

Roger Watson
Sorry to disagree, but I think that it is the tunes which have stood the test of time and the 18th/19th century language and thematic context which have resulted in the songs being seen as museum pieces, despite the timeless themes of them. So my suggestion would be to make new versions of the lyrics in view of linguistic and contextual changes.
1h

Sally LA Stamford
Author
Roger
Oooh I dint think I agree. I love Olde English
1h

Roger Watson
Sally LA Stamford But we live in a society which speaks contemporary English. So, note my reference to museum. I'm not criticising those who prefer the earlier language of songs. I just feel that they ought to be aware that what they are doing is akin to what a museum does.
1h

Bekki Shining Bearheart
Roger Watson You could use this argument to get rid of songs sung in dialect- because they might be surviving in small pockets of the world, and only a few people speak them. Dictionaries are now getting rid of perfectly good English words to make room for "contemporary" English. A shame. This might even be considered ageist, given that those old words, and dialects, are often the language of the elderly. For my part, I feel that keeping the "antique' alive roots us in our past and connects us to the ancestors. It also often keeps alive values that might otherwise be left in the dust, such as caring for the earth, valuing agrarian lifestyles and similar. The majority of farmers don't farm with horses any more, should we stop singing songs about plough boys just because most people haven't a clue what they do? Or (heaven forbid) change them to tractor boys?? (By the way, just to highlight this, I tried to use the word "forfend" instead of "forbid" and it was given a little red line to indicate it might be misspelled (as was plough), because it is not recognized as a word! from an online dictionary: forfend /fôr-fend'/ transitive verb To keep or ward off; avert. )
42m

Bernard Cromarty
I don't believe in change for the sake of change. Evolution is good, but should be the result and not the aim.
1h

Jason Sarkey
These melodies were never "preserved in aspic" in any form until they were recorded by collectors or printed as broadsides etc. There were always variations and evolutions, and it's just as valid for today's folk artists to take part in that variation and evolution. Like what Nic Jones did for Annan Water, for example, that's a bona fide folk artist taking part in the evolution of folk music.
1h

Ros Walker
Surely there is room for all sorts of variation. Musicians and lyricists are creative people and whether you are re-creating something as it was in the past (a historical piece) or evolving it for today in some way, it’s all valid. Audiences may have preferences about what they want to listen to /see, and the artist will know how much they need to generate an audience.
1h

Mary Smith
The traditional melodies and words are, in effect, preserved by means of field recordings, broadsides, etc. So it's possible for anyone who is interested to consult the original version (although really there is no one "original" version - but let's say the version recorded from a traditional singer or musician. I think it's fine if modern singers/players want to experiment with variations of lyrics or melody. Some I like, some I don't - but that is a matter of personal taste.
1h

Jim Voorhees
I go back to what Billy Mccomiskey said at the end of a week of teaching Irish accordeon music. The week featured some fantastic music by leading lights of Irish music, some of whom jazzed it up, literally and figuratively. He said that people will play what they will, but in the end, it all comes back to Joe Cooley, a favorite of his and anyone who cherishes music from the Irish box. Which is to say that the best of the tradition will live on.
46m

Jim McLean
Do what you like. First question you should have is "why do I like this song?" Second question is "why do I think other people should hear this song?" Third question is "Can I perform it in such a way that they will appreciate the song like I did when heard it?".
If the answer to all three questions is Yes, then no problem.
41m

Jon Stone
Part of the folk tradition is for versions of songs to evolve with contemporary influences and styles (think House of the Rising Sun). We can always find older versions.
39m

Donald R. Meixner
The band I have been a member of for 34 years has gone to good lengths to keep songs in the public ear. This has had varying degrees of success. Removing the word "Gypsy" and looking for a substitute that keeps a song together without sounding racist is one of the more problematic examples. The same can be said of 150 years old pop tunes like Rings on Her Fingers but I think we have had better luck with that tune.

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Feb 24 - 02:17 PM

Aha! I saw that post on Facebook, but something told me it would get moved here! So I didn't answer at the time.
Of course, music changes and moves on, but for me (again personal taste) it's whether those changes are an improvement or of benefit to the song.
I can think of a couple of songs where someone has decided to write a completely new tune to a well-known song - maybe they didn't know the original, or maybe they just thought theirs was better - not necessarily so. Without resorting to aspic, in this case, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Then there are others where the accompaniment is so funky that it breaks up the flow of the lyrics, and the song loses its meaning. I'm not against accompaniment per se, but it should be sympathetic and not intrude or overwhelm the song.
Many of our younger singers now have gone back to original texts and recordings, and have produced lovely versions of these songs without changing them much at all, and yet, they still sound fresh.

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Feb 24 - 04:12 PM

Performers should do as they like.

Scholars will do as they like.

Seems simple enough.

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: Mo the caller
Date: 18 Feb 24 - 04:28 PM

Tatie Bogle said
'I can think of a couple of songs where someone has decided to write a completely new tune to a well-known song - maybe they didn't know the original, or maybe they just thought theirs was better - not necessarily so.'
I am a dancer and choir member. The dancing masters of the past published dances with tunes, so now people think that dance and tune belong together. Not so. Another publisher might put the same instructions to a different tune, or a different set of instructions to the same tune. The dance usually went by the name of the tune it was set to.
Then in choir we sing so many different composers tunes for the same (usually religious) text.
So you could say that is the traditional way of doing things.

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: GUEST,Little Robyn
Date: 18 Feb 24 - 11:18 PM

What Tattie Bogle said! Sometimes I hear a 'new' version of a song I know well and love - and it makes wonder why, what is the reason they have changed things? Is it because they were too lazy to learn the words properly or are they keen to show off a new tune they have just written? Are they hoping to claim copyright and earn a bit extra (thinking of a certain Mr Zimmerman here) or did they hear it wrong in the first place.
My Mum also used to say "If it ain't broke....."
Robyn

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: r.padgett
Date: 19 Feb 24 - 02:53 AM

I think that by and large the songs and tunes which were bound together to start with have been recorded and kept for reference ~ by collectors and enthusiasts
Over the years collectors have recorded singers that have learnt versions that have undergone the folk aural and oral tradition and because of the recording systems have a "record" of these too

Creating totally new tunes ~ well it is possible ~ time will tell as to whether this is a good thing or not! imv words should always be clearly enunciated and the story clearly told

Ray

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 19 Feb 24 - 10:04 AM

IMHO traditional songs and melodies can usually survive the horrendous treatment sometimes accorded to them! For me, the test is: 1. Song/tune performed by artist, or 2. Artist performing song/tune. If 2 I usually switch off!

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Feb 24 - 12:01 PM

Re singing the same words to different tunes ....

Many hymn tunes got attached to specific hymns, and vice versa, because that's how they were paired in Hymns Ancient and Modern; this was the standard hymnal in the Church of England* up till the 1960s or later. But back in the 18th Century, I recently heard, only one carol was permitted at Christmas, and that was While Shepards Watched Their Flocks By Night. "So," said the presenter, "what did they do? They used different tunes." He then played a recording of a choir singing it to Cranbrook (nowadays irredeemably associated with Ilkley Moor). Try it --- once you get the repeats right, they go together surprisingly well, and the tune brings out the joy in the words.

My €0.02: For the sake of the historical record, the scholar in me says it helps to record which tune(s) that went with one particular set of words. My inner performer says: Go with what works best for *you*.

* In all the parishes I knew, anyway.

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 20 Feb 24 - 12:10 PM

We sing "While shepherds" to at least 9 different tunes at the George at Upper Denby, and usually at each session.

Robin

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 20 Feb 24 - 12:46 PM

Ah, the carol-singing tradition - that's another whole can o' worms! Love it - have only experienced it as "Carols in August" at Whitby and Sidmouth festivals, run by Ian Russell, but can imagine what it would be like in the pubs of Derbyshire and Yorkshire (and anywhere else) near Christmas.
And hymn melodies too: I can think of several tunes for a couple of hymns at least - All Things Bright and Beautiful, Love Divine, all loves excelling, and they each have their devotees.
And having just come through this year's Burns season, there are a good number of Burns songs that do NOT use the original tune, some of the latter being too big a range for the average singer: and then conversely, the same tune being used for 3 or 4 different songs.
Singing and dancing: I have also played in a couple of ceilidh bands, and some of the tunes we use are in fact song tunes: nice to see some of the fitter dancers managing to song and dance at the same time!

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 24 - 06:02 PM

On another thread, Dick Miles quoted

"Tradition is tending the flame, not worshipping the ashes". Gustav Mahler

I think that is an excellent way of looking at it.

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: ksiegel
Date: 20 Feb 24 - 07:38 PM

So many songs with the same tunes, many of which - while allegedly penned by "traditional" or "anonymous"...

Tom Paxton's story of his daughter listening to that "old french folk song" Bouteille du Vin" is just one example.

I hear a lot of fiddle & whistle/pipe players playing their traditional songs

And this year, I just yeard "Cherokee Shuffle" for the first time...

And swore I was listening to Stan Rogers' "Watching the Apples Grow".

Who knows - maybe I was?

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: Mo the caller
Date: 21 Feb 24 - 02:19 PM

"Tom Paxton's story of his daughter listening to that "old french folk song" Bouteille du Vin" is just one example."

So what would we know that as?

I understood that Hymns and Broadside Ballads were first published as words, so sung to whatever tune you happened to know. I suspect that typesetting words was a lot easier than printing music

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 24 - 03:49 PM

In his autobiography Keith Richards says he reckons recorded music was THE big thing of the last 100 or so years. Whether one agrees with him is a different question, but we are lucky in that, thanks to the recordings made from the Victorian era pioneers onwards, a huge canon of traditional melodies exists in recorded form as well as in notation.
To be clear here, I assume the discussion concerns the melodies themselves, not arrangements, instrumentation or lyrics.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter what individuals choose to do with them then since the source material remains.
I think it was Norma Waterson who said when she wanted to do a song she’d listen to as many different versions as she could find so that she could do it differently, which I think’s great policy.
I’ve played in tune sessions where other players have been able to tell where someone’s from by their use of accidentals, phrasings etc. At the other end of the spectrum I’ve witnessed sessions where the tunes have been note for note, phrase for phrase, copied slavishly from records. Joe Public didn’t know, or mind.
The only important thing is to keep playing them, anyone who gets hooked will sooner or later ask the question Chris Coe always used to: “Where did you get that one from ?” And then, “Where did they get it from ?”

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Feb 24 - 06:29 PM

Tom Paxton - Bottle of Wine. Our French friends do sing it as “Jolie Bouteille”.

But the story I heard from Tom’s mouth was that his daughter was at St Andrew’s University when someone introduced “Last Thing on my Mind” as being an Irish traditional song.
She says, “No it’s not”.
Singer says, “Yes it is”.
She says, “My Dad wrote that”.
Singer says, “Well, he might have”.

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 23 Feb 24 - 06:55 PM

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 24 - 07:30 PM

This may seem like sacrilege to some of the traditionalists out there however, now and then, I sing a couple of very well known traditional songs to the tunes of a couple of other well known traditional songs.
When tune patterns/metres match up, you can create a pleasant element of surprise as the listener is familiar with both lyrics and melody, but not paired up together.
FWIW, I’ve not had any complaints … yet.

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: GUEST,PHJim
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 08:20 AM

For a while it became popular to sing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of "House Of The Rising Sun".
I've also heard it sung to the tune of the "Giilaghan's Island Theme".

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 09:28 AM

The Lord's my Shepherd to Happy Wanderer.
Chorus Praise the Lord x4
O Alleluia
Praise the Lord
Alleluia
Praise the Lord

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Feb 24 - 09:33 AM

Thread drifting a bit, but just for fun, during lockdown, and also in memory of Tim Brooke-Taylor on the radio programme "I'm sorry I haven't a clue", a friend (known here as Scabby Doug) challenged his Facebook friends to "sing one song to the tune of another". Quite a few people had one or two goes at it, but one particular friend, Pauline Vallance, produced a whole concert's worth of these - all very good, and drawing on tunes from folk, classical, jazz and other genres. All very entertaining stuff!

Back on topic, and responding to Guest: yes, a lot of songs share the same poetic meter/no of syllables per line, so tunes can easily be interchanged. Yet another friend wrote a new song and was looking for a tune for it - she was thinking of using the "Tramps and Hawkers" tune, but I gently suggested she might like to find another, as that tune is already used for a number of songs other than T & H.

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 08:12 AM

Was it Fred Wedlock that did "The White Cockup"? Multiple songs to the tune of a similar name :-) It works for lots but I like a Pinball Wizard verse

Subject: RE: Preserve trad folk songs (melodies)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 24 - 08:23 AM

Oh, and I have been known to sing Chantilly Lace to the tune of The Parting Glass :-D