Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer

Subject: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST,Archie
Date: 04 May 24 - 10:43 AM

Hi all

Just learning some of Ewan MacColl's album about travellers, and love "thirty foot trailer". Wondering how people feel about the use of the word 'tinker' and for that matter, 'gypsy' in the song?

Can it still be sung at sessions? Change the lyrics? What to do!?

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 04 May 24 - 11:58 AM

If you don't like the words don't sing it. It isn't your song to 'correct'.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 04 May 24 - 01:10 PM

What is wrong with the word Tinker? I believe that many among the traveling people used to work at that trade.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 24 - 01:30 PM

'(especially in former times) a person who makes a living by travelling from place to place mending pans and other metal utensils.'

There are many former trades no longer practiced but the names can't be just 'forgotten of just because some people don't think they are 'right' any more.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 May 24 - 02:24 PM

After thirty years of living around and with the Gypsy Folk, I think that it is easy to take a little knowledge and miss the bigger picture.
There is nothing inherently wrong with the words Gypsy (capital G please) or Tinker or Traveller. It would be worthwhile to find out what each term means. Tinkers are a slang name given to the Rilantu Minciri, or Irish Travellers.
Gypsies are Romany's born to the life Diddecoi's or Poshrats are halfblood Gypsies and Travellers are those who have adopted the lifestyle.
All of this is a bit pedantic, and as long as you realise Gypsy folk don't mind being referred to as Travellers and do mind Travellers being referred to as Gypsies, please feel free to sing your heart out.
I'm not one for disrespecting McColl, but he did not really know half as much about the Gypsy life as he professed to. I think he took a lot of single opinions and believed them to be commonly held opinions. That said, I listened to Queen Caroline Hughes's niece sing Freeborn Man at Stowe Horse Fair. A great memory.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 24 - 03:10 PM

Was (small t) tinker used for (small t) travelling tinsmiths? Is that where the slang term came from?

I noticed that most recent online mentions of Donegal fiddler Johnny Doherty describe him as a tinsmith (sometimes itinerant tinsmith) whereas previously it was often travelling tinker and online debates about peoples' prejudices over the words ensued.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 04 May 24 - 03:24 PM

I wonder, was the word 'tinker' in the sense of a tinsmith applied more broadly to certain itinerant folks because of the similarity of sound to words in other languages, like 'zingari' and 'Zigeuner'? Or could it be that 'tinker' in this sense is actually etymologically related to those terms and nothing to do with tinsmithing?

Asking out of genuine interest mixed with admitted ignorance, in the knowledge that there are far more informed individuals on this message board. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 May 24 - 04:26 PM

I think that we are going too far back in history to be overly concerned with terminology. My wife's grandfather was a tinsmith but also a Romany. He was also a grave digger and horse dealer. There is nothing black and white except a good Gypsy horse of course.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 24 - 04:51 PM

MacColl wrote a good song, whether he was an expert on Gypsies is not as important as the song he left us.
if you are concerned about the words why not sing the Tinkers lullaby, Written by Pecker Dunne, who was quite happy about the using the word Tinker, and was from the travelling community, or you can always sing something bland like a cliff pilchard song

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 04 May 24 - 05:12 PM

And how should I now refer to our recently deceased vicar, Rev Mervyn Tinker?

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 May 24 - 07:40 PM

I don’t tink we should be tinkering with the lyrics of 30-foot trailer at all! (Sorry!)

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 24 - 08:08 PM

The important thing surely is the sentiment of the song. There's nothing pejorative in the use of the word tinker in that song.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST,Malcolm
Date: 04 May 24 - 08:54 PM

I thought to tinker was to try to solve a problem?!
Obviously not in this case.
English really is a very funny language - but I love it!!
The things some people worry about baffles me - or are they just lonely - now there is the foot in mouth.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: DaveRo
Date: 05 May 24 - 02:59 AM

GUEST,Malcolm wrote: I thought to tinker was to try to solve a problem?!

To tinker with something is often done to fix it, but not necessarily. It's often to just see how it works, or maybe improve it. It often results in the opposite of fixing it.

Freedom to tinker has for years referred to "the freedom to understand, discuss, repair, and improve the technological devices you own" and to oppose the efforts of manufacturers like Apple to prevent that, or even criminalise it.

Tinkering has gone from disreputable - "not worth a tinker's cuss" - to respectable.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 24 - 05:40 AM

I wonder whether travelling tinsmiths would do improvised repairs. We have an old, chipped, china teapot with tin replacement lid.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 24 - 08:26 AM

The word tinker also has a meaning of rascal or scamp "You little tinker" said to a mischievous child. Maybe reflecting prejudice?

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST,James Phillips
Date: 05 May 24 - 10:26 AM

If you're singing a song live it's effectively "your song" for that moment (not literally, but in a sense you are responsible for it) and if you feel more comfortable with a slight change in lyrics then go for it. It depends on the audience. For example, I'd feel less comfortable singing the line "I'm going to a foreign nation to purchase a plantation" (Craigie Hill) to an American audience than a European one.

Folk singers change lyrics all the time. Sometimes for rhythmic/phrasing purposes, other times because they find something unacceptable/controversial in old lyrics that were written at a different time. When Barbara Dymock sings "Let Me in This Ae Nicht" on the album "Hilbert's Hotel," she omits the verse that says "let witless trusting women say..." When Katie Kirk recorded "The Snow it Melts the Soonest," she changed the words to speak from the point of view of a woman. I don't see anything wrong with it. Even with songs whose authors are from modern times. I hear minor variations in the lyric of Owen Hand's "My Donal," for instance, depending on who's singing it. All good.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GerryM
Date: 05 May 24 - 06:46 PM

Hilbert's Hotel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel is a mathematical idea designed to introduce people to the modern conception of infinite sets. Any idea why Barbara Dymock chose it for the title of her album?

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 05 May 24 - 07:55 PM

I believe the word tinker refers to a traveling tinsmith in Bogie's Bonny Belle
"She's mairrit tae a tinker, noo
They live near Huntly toon
Sellin' pots an' pans an' paraffin lamps
Throughout the country roon"

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 06 May 24 - 02:39 AM

It seems to me ...
   Tinkers were poisoning a lot of poor folks.
What with using:
Lead
Tin
Pewter
To "repair" cookery.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

peculiar clan

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 May 24 - 04:34 AM

”The word tinker also has a meaning of rascal or scamp "You little tinker" said to a mischievous child.”

Yes indeed. I used that exact phrase only recently when I was talking to an old friend. Just a jokey, friendly exchange and nobody was ‘offended’.

Subject: RE: Use of word 'tinker' in 30 ft trailer
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 06 May 24 - 11:56 AM

" Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor, Rich Man, Poor Man, Beggarman, Thief"