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Lyr Req: Words to Dargason

Mo the caller 06 Jun 24 - 10:02 AM
Jack Campin 07 Jun 24 - 12:05 AM
Manitas_at_home 07 Jun 24 - 07:06 AM
Jack Campin 07 Jun 24 - 08:10 PM
Jack Campin 07 Jun 24 - 09:00 PM
Manitas_at_home 08 Jun 24 - 06:26 AM
GUEST 08 Jun 24 - 09:14 AM
Mo the caller 08 Jun 24 - 04:19 PM
sian, west wales 09 Jun 24 - 03:43 PM
Jack Campin 10 Jun 24 - 04:05 AM
GUEST 10 Jun 24 - 06:49 AM
GUEST,Howard Jones 10 Jun 24 - 09:56 AM
Mo the caller 11 Jun 24 - 05:08 AM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 Jun 24 - 10:02 AM

Someone asked me hummed dargason if I could remember the words.
I never knew it had words, though I know the dance.
All I'm getting from Google is "Also used for the folk-song It was a maid of my country." But further searching only gives A north Country Maid (The Oak & the Ash).
Mudcat search doesn't seem to work.

Anyone know?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jun 24 - 12:05 AM

If there are any, it'll be mentioned in Simpson's "The British Broadside Ballad and its Music" - which I have, but can't get at right now as the whole house is in chaos with having a new shower fitted.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 07 Jun 24 - 07:06 AM

Mactavish is dead
And his brother don't know it.
His brother is dead
And Mactavish don't know it.
They're both of them dead
And they're in the same bed,
And neither one knows
That the other is dead


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jun 24 - 08:10 PM

That goes to The Irish Washerwoman, which is a totally different tune. They're both in 6/8 and there the resemblance ends.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jun 24 - 09:00 PM

Found my copy of Simpson. The first text for it is in Ravenscroft's "Pammelia" (1609), no.30, where it is intended to be sung with two other tunes at once. The verse Simpson quotes is not memorable. What followed over the next few decades were texts about quaint yokels or the threat of murderous Papists, neither of which would put many coins in a busker's hat these days.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 08 Jun 24 - 06:26 AM

https://tunearch.org/wiki/Annotation:Irish_Washerwoman_(1)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 24 - 09:14 AM

The lyrics to "A Maid of my Country" are on The Session:

https://thesession.org/tunes/9468

The words don't seem to fit to the tune very well, to my mind.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: Mo the caller
Date: 08 Jun 24 - 04:19 PM

Thanks.
I'll stick to the dance. But pass those on to the choir member who asked


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Jun 24 - 03:43 PM

From "Welsh Traditional Music" by Phyllis Kinney (University of Wales 2011)

***

Some Welsh tunes were derived from the harmonic patterns known as ground basses so popular in Renaissance Europe. The sixteenth-century ground "Dargeson" gave birth to a tune called "Sedany" or "Dargason", which appeared in The English Dancing Master (1651). A ballad about Queen Elizabeth 1, which appears in Blodeu-gerdd Cymry 1759 but was written during her reign, is noted as "I'w channu ar fesur a elwir Sidannen" (To be sung on the measure called Sidanen) At least two other sixeenth-century Welsh ballads praising Elizabeth also fit the tune. The name "Sidanen" appears to have been used in Wales to designate a beautiful woman and it would have been natural to transfer the compliment to Queen Elizabeth. A few years later, a song in praise of "Welsh Sydanen" was sung in Anthony Munday's play, 'John a Kent and John a Cumber', in which "fayre Sidanen" was said to be the daughter of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd, Prince of Wales. "Sidanen" appears on the list of tunes found in the Lleweni manuscript and tunes called Sidanen are printed in eighteenth-century Welsh collections, but the latter are clearly instrumental display pieces unrelated to the "Dargeson" ground and unsuitable for ballad words. However, a variant of the "Sedany" tune can be found in Relicks of the Welsh Bards 1794, under the name of "Mwynen Cynwyd" (first strain only). At some point the tune became part of Welsh folk tradition, becoming attached to a wren-hunt song.

****

Kinney doesn't, as far as I can see, which wren song is connected to it. Dr Price (Mick Tems) might know.

sian, west wales


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jun 24 - 04:05 AM

Can't follow the tunearch link but I assume it's just Kuntz passing on unchecked myths as he usually does.

Dargason and The Irish Washerwoman have completely different melodic contours.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 24 - 06:49 AM

"Dargason and The Irish Washerwoman have completely different melodic contours."
So why does each remind me - and it seems many others - of the other?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 10 Jun 24 - 09:56 AM

Here's the first five bars of each, using ABCs taken from the Traditional Tune Archive. The top row is Dargason, the bottom row is IW.

A2F F2F | A2B c>BA | B2G G2G | B2c d>cB | A2F F2F |
AFF CFF | AFA cBA | BGG G,GG | BGB dcB | AFF CFF |

IW is "jiggier" and throws in a few additional notes, but there's a definite resemblence. It's not until the 6th bar that they diverge significantly.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Words to Dargason
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 05:08 AM

So you could medley them in a session and cause chaos at the changeover.


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