Tunings, String Bending and Intonation

Subject: Tunings, String Bending, Intonation in Dropped D
From: MK
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 04:01 PM

Question for the guitar fingerpickers amongst us here on the 'Cat.

(If this seems like a dumb question, please forgive me...but if I don't ask then I don't know.)

I have recently discovered the joys and flexibility of fingerpicking in Dropped D tuning (so much so, that lately --past couple of weeks--I have only been playing in this tuning, so my regular tuning chops might suffer a bit....but I'll get back to it, so they don't get too lonely.)

The one thing I have noticed on all my guitars (which have all had setups and intonation checks done recently) is that when I play for any length of time, in Dropped D, the intonation really goes out, and it becomes difficult to keep the instruments in tune and intonated properly.

Granted I am doing a lot of string bending and soloing (while maintaining the alternating bass) and wondered if this is a normal occurrance and one of the idiosyncracies of playing in this particular tuning?

The guitars stay much more stable tuning-wise and intonation wise, when the instruments are tuned to standard E-A-D-G-B-E.

Like to hear from Rick Fielding and others, who fingerpick alot in Dropped D. Is my problem normal or am I losing my mind? (grin) (Also, I generally change the strings once a week on my instruments.)

Thanks muchly, in advance.

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: Amos
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 04:06 PM

Michael,

I am no authority but I would hazard a guess you've been playing a lot, perhaps even with sweaty fingers, and that has had more impact on your tonality than the tuning.

My experience playing for days on end in DoubleD tuning is that it deteriorates the tone about at the same rate as playing a lot in ordinary (EADGBE) tuning.

But I'd be interested to hear if Rick or other masters have something to say on this one!

A

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: MK
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 04:08 PM

Thanks for your input Amos. (I tend to keep a clean towel or flannel rag nearby, as I wipe my fingers alot during practise, so as to reduce the sweat build-up on the strings) and make them last longer...but usually I change them once a week, as soon as they've lost ''the ring'' to them. (My tastes.)

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: Crowhugger
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 06:14 PM

I'm no expert either, but bending strings changes them, kind of like they'll age faster. Now and then I go on dropped D binges with no string trouble - I don't bend (intentionally!).

What about environmental factors adding to the mix. Every time my sweetie pie cranks the thermostat and I don't notice, my poor l'l instruments shrivel up with the corresponding decrease in relative humidity. The slight changes in shape of the body and neck make tuning a nightmare until I get things back to normal. And when I go overboard the other way, there's 20-30 minutes of hell each time I play as the instrument adjusts to body heat.

I recently learned of a common source of dystune-itis, if you isolate the culprit to the B string. It's a problem I need to address with my guitar. The little thingy on the bridge (memory, oh memory, wherefor art thou?) that the strings contact can be reshaped to make the B string just a teensy bit longer. On mine, one millimetre was suggested, so when I get to it, I'll start with .5mm and see how it goes. The doc who looked at my ailing baby and made the diagnosis is a hand-builder who says he's been told he makes some of the best-tuned guitars to be found. He has a very good rep so I'm inclined to believe him. Every guitar I've played needs the darn B string to be tweaked the most often. No matter what tuning.

Do you just drop the low E string or do you go for an open tuning? If enough tension is lost it could take the wood some time to adjust; how much time I don't know. If a I suspected loss of tension to be the problem on mine, I might try slightly heavier strings to check.

Just passing on such bits as I know. $0.02 for you.

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: MK
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 09:43 PM

Thanks Crowhugger.

(I just drop the low E to a D. Keep everything else in standard tuning.) But I've been doing a lot of bending on the 1st and 2nd strings --something I'd not done too much of before--and this is when I started to notice the intonation/tuning thingy...but, it sounds so cool hearing these soloing kind of licks around the alternating bass, so I'll keep doing it, and put up with it, as long as I can keep the song and strings reasonably in tune with itself.

(I don't think I'll ever be able to go back to playing any kind of blues in D, in standard tuning again. There are just so many doors and variations open in this Dropped D thingy. (I know it's old hat to a lot of you, but I'm like a kid in a candy store, and haven't gotten past the ''novelty'' phase of it yet...and really it's all Mr. Fielding's fault!)

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 10:42 PM

Regardless of how much money you pay for your strings, my suggestion is to next time try an alternative brand or alternative (lighter)gauge of the same brand. I won't bore you with my theories too much, but it sounds like shitty strings - or the strings aren't moving freely through the nut. If you're changing strings frequently just suck it and see. Regards, John

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 10:49 PM

I can't imagine changing strings every week, I change (fiddle) every 6 mos. or so, and I play a lot. Not like concert violinists, but average 30 hrs. a month. Changing strings is a bitch!

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: RichM
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 11:46 PM

I suspect it's because you change strings so frequently.It takes more than a week for a string to stabilize. Tho' I agree, the sound of new strings is seductive. Generally, I change every 3 months or so, when the strings have been worn enough that the changes are visible at the fretting points and where the fingers /flatpick touch...and the overtones start to sound "off". I play hard, and I play often, in practicing my parts for a celtic instrumental band that meets weekly.

But this is just me, and my guitar. It's getting on to 20 years old (Marc Beneteau Dreadnought)and it has a wonderful mellow tone when the strings get past that bright sound of strings that are new.

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: Brendy
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 12:02 AM

A very valid observation there, Michael.
I normally use 1 guitar for each tuning. Now hold on, I know that might sound a bit extravagant, but my reasoning is this.
You are right when you talk about Standard tuning suiting the strings, as it were. So when you tune down, the strings should match the intonation.
I use a guitar especially for DAGDAD, one for Standard, and so on. Depending on the gauge that you feel comfortable with, compensation has to be made to keep the gauge in proportion to the tension. I use '60's for my bottom D, and '17's for my top D. I do like heavy guages, you understand. But it is in proportion to what I use for standard tuning, ie '58's for my bottom E, and '15's for my top E.
You may prefer lighter gauges, but there is a limit to which a string can be tuned down befor you start losing pitch on the fretboard.
If you're using one guitar to accomodate all your tunings, well then compromises have to be made when you select your gauges.
I change my strings every night when on tour, once every couple of weeks when I'm home. The important thing about new strings is to stretch them well before tuning them to pitch; they don't tend to go out of tune as quick.

I hope some of this makes sense. It works for me, anyway.

B.

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 12:41 AM

I drop my lw E to a D pretty frequently, and playup te neck when I do. I bend strings frequently, depedning upon the tune, and I have not noticed an increase in tuning problems. I have noticed that dropping to D and moving up the neck makes your fingering more critical, for perfect intonation. That is, you are more likley to use too much muscle and accidentally bend a string when you don't mean to. This playing up the neck, and the alternating bass notes will also put the accuracy of your neck to the test. I suspect you'll find you are more likely seeing intonation problems caused more by accidental bending, and by neck imperfections than by strings actually stretching or slipping.

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From:
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 06:43 AM

Michael. I just caught up with this thread. To me tuning means how the strings are tuned relative to each other whereas intonation means how well in tune the different frets of the guitar are assuming the strings are tuned properly. I don't think tuning down to dropped D should affect the intonation in this sense, nor should bending the strings. However, I find that when I use different tunings my guitar has to "get used to" them. That is I have to retune frequently for a while and then things stabilize. (It is my private opinion that the wood in the soundboard also gets used to a tuning and the people who use different guitars for different tunings might be justified on this ground.)

There is another factor. Strings can go "false". This means they change their pitch as they are sounding. Bending and constant retunng seems to make my strings go false sooner. All guitar strings wobble a few cents as they sound; but if you can hear the difference in pitch as a note sustains, change that string. It will be impossible to play in tune with it.

I have started using 80/20 bronze strings instead of Phospher Bronze and they seem to hold up better under a lot of retuning. It could be the brand. The Phospher/Bronze I use are D'Addario whereas the 80/20s are John Pearce.

Murray

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: Willie-O
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 08:42 AM

I don't think dropping the low E string down to D really constitutes retuning at all--but if it results in your playing up the neck and bending the high strings more, especially the B, that'll do it.

Having had the same problem in varying degrees over the years, my playing style has adapted to it. I don't bend strings very much, especially when using a capo--maybe once in a tune. There are other effects that help make an interesting musical sound without the attendant problems: crosspicking (builds up nice jangly overtones, mixing open and fretted treble strings, a modest vibrato, tremolo or at least little triplets on the same note where an emphasis is desired, and unisons on the fifth fret...

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: Bert
Date: 15 Feb 00 - 04:07 PM

From the engineering point of view (my tin ear doesn't care much)

Intonation is a compromise to adjust for the change in tension when you stop a string. In theory each fret should be adjusted for each string, but that's not very practical so the string length is adjusted at the bridge.

If your guitar is set up for standard tuning then you would 'expect' it to be wrong when you tune a string down, because you are changing the tension in that string.

Get your guitar set up for the tuning that you are using.

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: GUEST,Scotsbard
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 01:05 PM

Dropping the low E to D reduces some of the bending forces that string applies to the neck. The neck moves slightly because of that reduction, and tension on the other strings changes slightly. If you use a meter for tuning, you may actually be able to see a few cents difference. Typically the A will be tighter, and perhaps the treble E looser. Generally this effect is more noticable with thinner, more flexible necks. The only guitar I've ever seen that seemed immune to this shift was one of those aluminum-necked Ovations.

Dropping into DADGAD from EADGBE eases the whole neck backwards significantly, and can even make a noticeable difference in the action on some guitars. That can affect intonation, because fret spacings and bridge positioning compensate for the effects of string heights and sizes. The top and neck may also take anywhere from a half hour to a couple of days to settle completely when after a large change in tuning. Using different guitars for different tunings can really simplify the problems often encountered.

One thing you might try is always tuning each string *up* to the right pitch. If you overshoot and tune sharp, then drop at least a 1/4 step low and try again. This keeps all of the friction and slack in the system working in your favor with the increasing tension caused by bending strings.

(And the comments above about string gauging and aging are right on target. Strings "work harden" with playing, which makes them drift sharper because of the increased section modulus. The gaps between the windings get filled in with debris from fingering, which also makes the string less flexible. I tend to change them whenever the 4th harmonic starts getting dull.)

~S~

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: Easy Rider
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 01:56 PM

"I tend to change them whenever the 4th harmonic starts getting dull."

Eh? How do you play the 4th harmonic?

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 05:12 PM

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: GUEST,Scotsbard
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 06:58 PM

Harmonic@Frets; Starting with A=440 to keep the numbers simple on a standard guitar:

440 = fundamental

880 = 1st harm @ 12th fret, 1/2 length = 2x frequency = 1 octave higher; 1320 = 2nd harm @ 7th fret, 1/3 len = 3x freq ~= 1 oct + 5th higher, (although that should actually 1318.51 which is why that trick of tuning the treble E to the A harmonic doesn't work exactly right);

1760 = 3rd harm @ 5th fret, 1/4 len = 4x freq = 2 octaves higher;

2200 = 4th harmonic @ 4th fret, 1/5 length = 5x frequency, which is sort of close to 2 octaves + 3rd (the nodal point is usually just slightly towards the nut from the 4th fret);

2640 = 5th harm (no fret really, closer to the 3rd fret than the 4th fret), 1/6 len = 6x freq = 2 oct + 5th (or close anyway);

3080 = 6th harm (closer to the 3rd fret than the 2nd fret), and doesn't sound close to anything in 12 step equal tempered tuning, besides that it dies away very quickly;

3520 = 7th harm (closer to the 2nd fret than the 3rd fret), and though its a perfectly good 3 octaves higher, at this point you'd probably get better sound strumming between the nut and the tuning machines.

(If for some reason a guitarist feels compelled to play even higher harmonics, I suggest that (s)he be locked in a room with a million manic mandolinists for a month.)

~S~

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: MK
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 08:11 PM

I sincerely appreciated the responses and suggestions.

I'm beginning to think that it is more technique than the instrument, although some of my guitars seem to hold up much better to bending etc...than others.

I am finding that of all my geetars, the Collings OM3H is absolutely un-shakable and rock solid, intonation wise, no matter what I play on it or what tuning I use. Perhaps this is a testament to it's bolted neck --I don't know.

I'm also finding that I am pressing too hard with the left hand in forming chords and lead patterns, and this is definitely playing a part in the intonation process. I have to spend some time and find that minimum acceptable amount of finger pressure required to clearly hear the chord without overkilling it.

Bottom line is finesse I think, and I'm still very much finding my way in this department. I guess this, is what separates the guys who've only been playing for a couple of years (yours truly) and the guys who've been doing it forever. So much to learn; so little time.   8-)

Subject: RE: Tunings, String Bending and Intonation
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 Feb 00 - 09:57 PM

A very acceptable alternative to dropped -D tuning is to use a Shubb capo (a Kyser works too, but not so slickly) and clamp the top five strings at the second fret, leaving the bass E open. Now your chord shapes are just like in standard tuning, except you have a ready made tonic note on the bottom string.(You have to mute the bottom stringwhen you play an A maj) There is of course the minor matter that you are actually playing in the key of E, but your voice will get used to it .........leastways mine did)