Riley Puckett?

Subject: Riley Puckett?
From: GUEST,Jonathon G. Bloke
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 09:35 AM

I'm trying to find out if Riley Pucket was a flatpicker (playing those runs of his with a flatpick) instead of a fingerpicker (IE Mother M Carter's use of her thumb and fingers) Sure sounds like flatpicking ...anybody know for sure?

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Troll
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 09:45 AM

Fingerpicker.

troll

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 10:16 AM

Hi. Nope. None of the above. Several of his contemporaries remarked on his totally bizarre style. He played with his INDEX finger...using it like a flatpick with up and down strokes. One of the pictures of him playing, confirms this if you REALLY look closely. Although he's often pictured playing a Stella or a Martin, Alton Delmore and Clarence Ashley say he normally used a "metal" guitar. Obviously they mean a "National".

He is one of my favourite artists, although sometimes his bass runs just got plain silly!

Rick

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 04:50 PM

Kenny Hall...blind mandolin player from California..(Sweets Mill String Band) played a 'tater bug' mandolin with just one finger like that....his nail looked like a piece of steel!

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Oversoul
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 08:36 PM

Would you fingerpick to be heard among all those fiddles? I don't care if you have ceramic fingertips, that is a flatpicked guitar if I ever heard one. I have a couple of vintage resophonic guitars and I know how they sound played in various manners. Don't hear what ain't there, no need to elevate his playing above what it is (was). Riley's playing dosen't need hype, or anything else. I hate guitar groupies who overthink everything and trash honest-for-God contributions with a bunch of bullshit trivia. Listen and learn, do we need a debate about fiddle bows and rosin? Get serious and just get on with it!

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 08:53 PM

Clayton Mc Michen was often heard to say,

" Come on Riley, Puckett!"

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Pete Peterson
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 08:59 PM

Davecoje, I think it's important to find out how it actually was done! and for that reason am grateful to Rick F for what he posted. I had always thought it was rapid alternating of thumb and index finger soomewhat like Don Reno did on some of his banjo pieces. (These days, Wayne Henderson plays much in that style and is often mistaken for a flatpicker) Riley was one of a kind-- those runs were sometimes in the wrong place at the wrong time (Done Gone!) but added a lot-- and, I suspect, were a strong influence on the young Doc Watson.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Oversoul
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 09:27 PM

Riley's techniques are obvious and less than interesting in the grand scheme of things. Hero worship and that crap are best left to comtemporary pop, isn't the subject dance music from the rural South? He was great, and the band and concept was great, end of story. I admire them as much as anyone, but only a fop would miss the point and revel in silly trivia. Clown, just be around good looking women, liquor, and the desire to have fun. What else was that music about? Strip it down if you wish, but do it in private and stay off of my cloud! [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Troll
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 09:53 PM

Davecoje, I don't know who you are, but why do you seem to think that making inflamatory statements will get your message across? If you don't wish to analyze the styles of an artist the better to understand him, thats fine. It's your right to have an opinion. It's your right to express it. It is not your right to ridicule and case aspersions on those who do. The last time I looked, there was no law in place that made it mandatory to post on a thread just because you logged on to it.

I'm not trying to flame you, just pointing out some things that I feel should be obvious.

troll

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Oversoul
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 09:58 PM

Do you attribute great music making with some kind of abnormality? Riley wasn't a great guitar player because he was blind! He had a sense of pitch, rhythm and harmony...get it? And he knew great players who played a new twist on what people already dug. If you are made of cement, you don't like gravel. Don't look for musical pretension in the Skillet Lickers! That was a party band! I listen to them for different reasons than Bach! Why waste your time looking for techniques when you should be creating your own musical vision/message? What better lesson is so obvious in their music? This is not a diversion like watching lame sports shit on television, pick up an instrument and show us. Flatpick or fingerpick, really, who cares? Just get it right and to hell with nonsense! The object is to move people!

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 10:18 PM

Fellas,

Can a lady (Ms. Buttinsky) offer a soothing word? Although the tone of his posting distracts me, I think Davecoje is really trying hard to express a valid opinion. You know I'm new here-- has he posted in the past and been a problem, or is he new and can we make a just a teensy little more room and see if we get into a place with him where ideas can be exchanged effectively? Do we mean to thrust out someone who posts more than once and who obviously wants to think about this stuff?

Davecoje,

I don't know you, but I am interested in what you think. Can you say more about what moves you in music-- whose music, what effect it has? There, I can engage with you. I just would like to start from one of these two viewpoints:

Neither you nor I are incurable assholes so we can knock off the nasties with no penalty.

or

We're both incurable asshoiles and let's just assume that and move on from it.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Troll
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 10:44 PM

Davecoje, I had the priviledge of meeting Riley Puckett a few years before his death. He wasn't playing anymore but he was in interesting old man.

As to why I "waste" my time studying the techniques of others, I do it because I don't feel like re-inventing the wheel. By knowing and understanding what others have done , I become a better musician. I can use pieces of the techniques of others to further develop my own style. What I do is uniquely my own but it rests on a foundation built from what I have learned from every musician that has had an influence on through the years.I derive much pleasure from my music and my audiences seem to like what I do.I would be missing a great many very important lessons if I ignored all the good things that can come from the study of others.I'm no genius. My style didn't arrive one day in a flash of light. It was developed over many years of trial and error, of study and analysis. And it is still developing. I hope it never stops.

troll

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 12:30 AM

Dave,

I had a great rant going here and then somehow I lost it, sorry. You won't get the benefit of my wry and wonderful wit as I gently suggested you get a grip.

Get out of the Ivory Tower and play amongst the lowly who are glad to have others who continually amaze them with their ability. I have learned that great skill doesn't make a great musician. I have also larned that great musicians aren't always great people. I'd rather play with a buch of people who are continually trying to learn something new than with anyone who is convinced they'd learned enough.

Don

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 12:38 AM

Well, Davecoeji, I hate to have to tell you this, but ref: Fiddle bows and rosin: There are LOTS of debates on this very subject--kind of wood, makers, amount of hair in the bow, brand of rosin, etc. and it ALL does make a DIFFERENCE, as does the kind of strings, bridge height, and lots of other stuff you obviously know nothing about, so why should we think you know anything about this style? Speak to those who have seen and know him.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 12:54 AM

Holy Cow, what did I miss by actually working today? A question was asked about Riley Puckett's style. T'was answered. Not by taking educated guesses, but by what his contemporaries recalled.....and this leads to being called a "Fop", and "Clown"! I am ecstatic! We've got a solid gold, A #1 character on Mudcat at last! I'm far less concerned about dave's convaluted reasoning which would appear to be "if it sounds like a flatpick..then it's a flatpick" than with the idea that trying to find out how musicians "did" things, somehow means that we prefer TV sports to making out own music. Trust me Dave...we play!

Don't go away Dave. We need you here. Sometimes Mudcat's "classy politeness" can make us forget the "real world".

Rick

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 01:23 AM

I'm sure I would not like being flamed, but being INFLAMED is not such a bad thing. I think he may come back, and I hope he will.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: GUEST,Praise but where's my cookie?
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 01:23 AM

That last GUEST one's mine.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Troll
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 07:23 AM

The Gremlins ate it.

troll

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:14 AM

But Praise, was it actually a Gremlin? Could it not have been a Pacer? Did Riley puckett drive a Pacer? (before he went blind) I MUST know this information!

Rick

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: MK
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:30 AM

.....believe it or not Davecoje, some of us here on Mudcat are actually interested in......TECHNIQUE.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:34 AM

No, he drove a trotter.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Fortunato
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 12:52 PM

For those who care about such things: I bridged the gap to Mr. Puckett's playing to bring Doc Scantlin's Red Hot Peppers the sound of those bass runs.

I used a 1931 Supertone Guitar, smallest "O" size, strung with heaviest gauge Black Diamond strings. Although I held a flat pick I made contact with the nail of my right index finger on 50% of the down strokes. Eventually it didn't hurt anymore.

Rick Fielding's answer is correct. I know. Tradition has it that Puckett's strings may have been even heavier than the Black Diamonds I used.

As to why? There was a sound I wanted that I believed to be integral to the music. An intrinsic, percussive inflection that produced a qualitative difference in the sound. Doc Scantlin listened for it, suggested ideas, eventually we got it. Those who have ears can hear.... Those who do not hear it say it isn't there. Cheers, Fortunato

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:50 PM

Thanks Fort. And thanks Michael...for keeping your temper in check when dealing with Phillistines.

One more thing on the "index/flatpick" issue. I tried playing some of his guitar style with just an index finger this morning. After about 10 minutes it's not much of a trick at all. Perfectly valid, and when I hit the notes right, sounds like a flat pick or a thumb pick.

OK, one more little addendum to this. The man who (sort of) invented the genre, Charlie Monroe, used a thumb pick and finger pick, and he sure got around nicely.

Rick

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Troll
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 03:14 PM

Rick. There is an old recording of a skit that the Skillet Lickers recorded called "Night in a Blind Tiger". In 5the skit Riley plays alone and I'd swear he was fingerpicking.Maybe he did both, depending on the situation.

troll

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: GUEST,copperman
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 03:38 PM

where is riley buried in ga.?

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Arnie Naiman
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 09:46 PM

When I first listened to recordings of The Skillet Lickers I thought -My God, Riley is just a friggin excentric maniac- He has no idea of what the heck he's doin! Of course- they were a party band, and he was improvising all the time when he played in the band. (It was Ragged But Right!) Then I heard his incredible solo recordings of really interesting guitar playing -with bass runs and stuff that made more sense (to me). What a contrast! I just figured he used a thumb pick for most of all that. Interesting iformation Rick - you'll have to show me sometime.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 09:51 PM

BOLO

Be on the lookout for the return of our earlier poster Davecoje. Our e-mail coorespondence of last night has matured into a delightful conversation and hopefully he will come say hello in a friendlier if still ornery fashion. He's a spicy one.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 01:03 AM

I hope he takes a moment to get to know us, esp. people like Rick who are "creating (their) own musical vision/message".

A little respect and a "hi, I'd like to get to know you" might be nice.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Duckboots
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 01:13 AM

Thanks Kat. Don't mind havin' a little fun with the gent though. Ten to one he can take it.

Great point Troll! Most of the artists we like on records did TONS of other stuff that we don't know about. I would never have believed that Django Reinhart was a finger picker if I hadn't heard that one rare recording of him doing some great pseudo-classical stuff. Same with Lonnie Johnson as a violinist and pianist, or Merle Haggard as hot fiddler and rock lead guitarist. How about the contemporaries of Robert Johnson who said that he played lots of pop songs, could blow a mean harmonica, and dance the jive!

Hey! It's nice to have so many people in a "Riley Puckett" thread!

Rick

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 01:17 AM

Dammit, if Duckboots is gonna be posting on the cat she could at least re-set my cookie! That last was me of course, cause, tolerant woman that she is..I don't think she's a Riley Puckett fan!

Rick

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 01:44 AM

RF in Duckboots,

The gent survived my gentle ministrations with a very large two by four last night, in good form, and I am sure will be a delight to engage with if he returns.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson (w)
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 10:31 AM

Having heard about Riley Puckett from the NLCR for about five years, it was a real eye-opener to hear some tapes of old 78s back in 1966 or so and hear Fuzzy Rag ("now pay close attention to these runs." nobody ELSE was doing that in 1927. I was able (as I've said before) to approximate the notes by using thumb and index finger alternating fast, instead of a flatpick, but always had the feeling I wasn't doing just what Riley was doing. Thanks again Rick.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 10:53 AM

When I started playing old-time, Riley puckett was my role model for guitar accompaniment. I DID try to make the runs relate to what the fiddles were doing, but I stood in awe of his playing. I still do. He was highly inventive.

Arnie or anyone. Are those solo recordings available today? I'd sure like to buy them.

troll

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 11:19 AM

Hey Troll.....One Riley album is available thru Mudcat (go to Sh0p and Auction) and several are available including the S-L at Elderly www.elderly.com...Go to the CD section and do a name search in the block at the bottom of the page.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 11:23 AM

Thankee Spaw. I take back half of what I said about you.

Love to Cleigh,

troll

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 11:25 AM

So do two halve make a whole?....or in my case an arsewhole?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 11:34 AM

BTW....the one available thru the 'Cat I assume comes from Camsco, but if I'm wrong, I should also have pointed out that Dick at Camsco does have the album and you can get a track listing on his site Camsco Music--www.camsco.com.......Should also note that ordering thru Camsco or Mudcat benefits the 'Cat financially as well. Sorry.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 11:37 AM

You're being nice. You're building up to something,right?

troll "BSG"

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Stewie
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 06:56 PM

Troll, all the LPs would be well out of print. The only Puckett to make it to CD is a 24 track selection on Old Homestead: 'Riley Puckett: Old Time Greats Vol 2' Old Homestead 4174. I have been trying to get it in import shops in Australia, but no one can supply and it appears Old Homestead doesn't answer emails, from foreign countries at least. I notice that Roots and Rhythm has it available, and I will order it from them. From the partial track listing there, it looks to be an expansion of the Old Homestead vinyl albums devoted to Puckett.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Troll
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 07:00 PM

Much thanks Stewie. Riley was a major influence on me.

troll

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 07:10 PM

You guys should check with Dick Greenhaus, of the DigiTrad and Camsco Records. He says he can get just about anything and if you buy from him, like Spaw said, part of it goes to the Mducat. You can send him a personal message here at the Mudcat or, go to the Quick Links and Contact Us.

all the best, kat

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 08:46 PM

If a recording is available at all, anywhere, Dick will make the effort to locate it and supply it through the Mudcat shop or direct from Camsco, as Kat points out. Give him a chance to help the Mudcat! Ask him first!

Sandy

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 08:59 PM

Not having heard these personally, except maybe on old LP's borrowed 20 years ago from my local library and long since returned, I don';t know ifthese are on or off target. But these were recommended by Davecoje: in the correspondence I had with him lat night.

Here are two CD's which pretty much sum up Puckett's sound, sense of humor, and association with the Skillet Lickers:

A CORN LICKER STILL IN GEORGIA
Gid Tanner and his Skillet Lickers
VRCD303 - Voyager Recordings, Seattle,WA

THE SKILLET LICKERS
Old-Time Fiddle Tunes and Songs From North Georgia
COUNTY CD - 3509 - County Records, Floyd, VA

Suggest you e-mail Davecoje at his given address if details are wanted.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 09:14 PM

Again, I would echo myself......When I ran various searches I found 9 different listings including the two above. If Elderly has them (and they do) then I'm equally sure that Dick can get them. He does list the one compilation now.

And Troll....I wasn't setting you up for a joke, just trying to remind about the Mudcat support idea!!!(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 11:07 PM

Oddly enough, I have run into a number of funk guitar players who use the index finger in a similar fashion--call me crazy(it won't be the first time) but when I first heard the Skillet Lickers recordings, it struck me that they had a very funky sound--anyway, Riley Puckett's playing still sounds fresh--

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: JedMarum
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 12:18 AM

I can't say why I tuned into this thread, or why I read through it, since I don't know anything about Mr Puckett, but it has been an interesting thread none-the-less.

Maybe I read through the pathos and the passion because I use my nails when I play. I do not regularly 'flat pick' much with my nails, except occasionally on Bass, but I do use my nails for finger picking (with a thumb pick) and exclusively on the banjo (no thumb pick).

I have also found nails useful at cracking a string (forward), flat pick style, while you are finger picking. It makes a sharp percussive "flat picked" sound in the midst of an otherwise finger picked pattern (does that make sense?). I use it for accent on bass runs, and sometimes for a snap of two or three note chords. I also know that I can use the nail of my index, held as if it were a flat pick, to sound just like a flat pick. I have been accused of using a flat pick on new guitars in the store while doing this ... I know it can be done.

So now that this discussion has caught my attention, maybe I need go and listen to Riley's music - party music, I gather?

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 11:41 AM

Hi Liam/Jed. Hey, why don't ya drop the "Liam"? We know who you are now, and only the most beautiful Mudcatters are likely to follow you home!!

Yeah, give Riley Puckett a listen to. He was tremendously influential and no...he isn't exclusively "party music". When he played with Gid Tanner, the music was wild old country hoe-down, but on his own he played some great ballads, rags, sentimental songs and did lots of Jimmie Rodgers covers.

He fit into an interesting category. Every label had artists who could recreate a "hit" of the day. For example if Jimmie Rodgers released a song (which would automatically become a "hit") every other label would release either the same song or a very similar one, using their own artists, in order to grab a share of the sales. Very similar to the covers by Pat Boone, Chubby Checker, Cliff Richard, etc. of R and B songs.

Riley and Gene Autry were prime "cover artists" in the thirties.(as was Blind Willie McTell) Gene hit it big with "I'm back in the Saddle Again" and became a star. Riley never had that big breakthrough and died in obscurity in the forties.

Other than his playing style, his contemporaries didn't have a lot to say about his personality, other than that he was seen as a moody person, and sometimes bad tempered...oh, Alton and Rabon Delmore (my alltime favourite musicians) reported that he was a "natty dresser"!

Rick

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: JedMarum
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 02:23 PM

a natty dresser - Is that good? I would like to give a listen to some of the music ... sounds like I'd enjoy it.

And drop the Liam? Hmm, well I'm workin' on that. I've conversed around enough here to want to change slowly, but if some of those beautiful Mudcatters will follow me home, perhaps I'd better do it sooner rather then later!

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Arnie Naiman
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 06:06 PM

I have 2 lp's of Riley on Old Homestead Records -Vol 1 & 2. Also one on County #411 "Waitin' for the Evening Mail" - with a picture of Riley sitting and fingerpicking a guitar and Gid Tanner playing fiddle. These recordings of mostly solo pieces (and entirely different from The Skillet Licker recordings), are filled with great singing, incredible yodeling, and solid guitar playing.

Subject: RE: Riley Puckett?
From: Stewie
Date: 25 Feb 00 - 06:18 PM

During his lifetime, Riley was more popular for his singing than for his guitar playing. In an interview in the 1970s, McMichen said, in respect of Skillet Licket records, that if Riley didn't sing in them, they did not sell.

--Stewie.