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The Amish and Folk Music
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Subject: The Amish and Folk Music From: GUEST,Apprenticing Date: 12 Mar 00 - 12:51 AM Top Ten Amish March/Spring Break Activities
10. Drink molasses till you heave
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Rick Fielding Date: 12 Mar 00 - 12:55 AM Well there's 'Amish 'Enderson, and of course 'Amish Imlach. Sure sounds like a "letterman Top Ten List to me. If it IS original...congrats. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Mar 00 - 01:03 AM Well, I guess there's one ethnic group we can count on bashing without them seeing us do it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: BK Date: 12 Mar 00 - 01:26 AM Used to live near 'em. By & large, some of the best folk around to have as neighbors. & THEY often have an excellent sense of humor... For example, what goes cloppety clop clop, cloppety clop clop; BANG!, BANG!; cloppity, clop clop, clop , clop, clop,... Give up? An Amish drive-by-shooting (Genuine Amish Country joke.) On the other hand, a shy but promising young woman singer-song writer who grew up Amish, w/ the prospect of living that way, wrote sometimes funny, but very telling, & painful, songs abt it. The woman's perspective in some of the poorer, more isolated Amish communities is potentially rather grim.. Cheers, BK |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Mar 00 - 01:29 AM I was surprised to learn that when farm work permits, Amish will flock to attend blood drives and donate blood. By percentage of population, they are one of the donating-est segments in the US. IMHO, a joke someone tells on themselves is different from a joke told on them behind their backs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Ebbie Date: 12 Mar 00 - 03:03 AM These aren't behind their backs, necessarily! I was Amish until I left home at 17. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Mar 00 - 03:12 AM Ebbie, What did you think of the first posting? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Ebbie Date: 12 Mar 00 - 04:27 AM Frankly, it's offensive stuff. Mostly because there are people like that who spew things they know nothing about- either weird, denigrating things or things that are so sticky sweet they bear no resemblance to the truth. In actuality, I think the Amish lifestyle has a lot of good to it- we always had lots of horses to ride! but as a religion, I think it's a crime against kids. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Mar 00 - 04:47 AM Hmm. OK, thanks, that's helpful. I hope you kept ALL the good and have shrugged off the rest. I've helped some with that kind of shrugging. It can be hard work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: black walnut Date: 12 Mar 00 - 10:02 AM yes, please stop the bashing! this march break i am looking forward to spending some time with my 3rd cousin and her family. they are Old Order (horse and buggy) Mennonite. i feel very honoured to be able to be able to see their warm and loving community from the inside. whether it is a crime against the kids or not is controversial. i can see it both ways. but, whatever the group, let's have some sense of grace, here. there is no humour in hurting others or laughing at their traditions. ~black walnut |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Bill in Alabama Date: 12 Mar 00 - 10:42 AM I agree, Black Walnut. I have Amish friends, and I agree with BK--that there's much to be admired in their choice of lifestyles. Bill |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: GUEST,Apprenticing Date: 12 Mar 00 - 01:33 PM Oops. Sorry to have offended. For those who've lost their senses of humor in this thread, as a consolation, we will be shipping you all free Shroud of Turin beach towels. God Bless |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Ebbie Date: 12 Mar 00 - 01:45 PM Hey, Apprenticing, I said it was offensive stuff- I didn't say I was offended! I thought some of it was funny. The rest would have been funnier if it'd got closer to the truth. I have many fond memories of my upbringing. The part that took a lifetime to square away was the notion that any disagreement with parents was an insult to God. A no-win situation but a battle long either ended in a truce or negotiated into peace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Mar 00 - 01:55 PM Ebbie!!!! Love you to pieces!!!! WHAT an answer!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Bill D Date: 12 Mar 00 - 02:00 PM do I understand correctly that Amish kids, upon reaching 17 or 18 are expected to 'take a year off' and go look at the world before they commit their life to the old ways?..It seems like a wise attitude, given the strictness of the choice, once made. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Ebbie Date: 12 Mar 00 - 02:38 PM Only the boys, Bill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 12 Mar 00 - 04:55 PM The question I see as relevant here is, do they have any oral singing tradition, other than hymns? If so, I'd be very interested, is so. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: thosp Date: 12 Mar 00 - 11:12 PM actually i'm quite interested in the answer to doesterrs' question! peace (Y) thosp |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Arkie Date: 12 Mar 00 - 11:24 PM We have several settlements of the Mennonite branch of the Amish here in Stone County, Arkansas. They do not lie, steal, or cheat and pitch in in mass when trouble strikes. The county is much richer because of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: GUEST,TTCM Date: 12 Mar 00 - 11:28 PM ...Well Arkie they must keep a low profile since when they are in the Witness Protection Program. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Ebbie Date: 13 Mar 00 - 12:21 AM I'm no expert in current Amish experiences- though I have a thousand Amish relatives- but I've not heard of any witness protection program involving Amish, TTCM. Unless you're thinking of the movie, Witness? Fun movie but total farce- ALL Amish speak the dialect, for instance, so the opening premise was not possible. As for an oral tradition of music, they have a number of songs they sing, mostly novelty songs that are spoofs of family relationships or- I remember one about a little boy who thought he was a pretty cool kid and his travails. The problem is that they are all in dialect! I feel the greatest strength of the Amish is their sense of fun- I don't know any that don't love to laugh. My father to the end of his life kept clippings in his shirt pocket that he'd whip out at every conceivable moment. I think humor was the strongest bond my parents possessed: my father loved to make people laugh and my mother loved to laugh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Mar 00 - 03:46 AM That's a lovely snapshot, Ebbie, thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Easy Rider Date: 13 Mar 00 - 10:17 AM I applaud the tolerance exhibited here, in reaction to the inital, bad taste, "joke". Do the Amish play any musical instruments? Could their songs be translated into English and played by some of us? Has it ever been collected, published or put on records/CDs by the likes of Lomax or somebody else? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: black walnut Date: 13 Mar 00 - 11:33 AM i don't know about the amish, but i know that when the work is done for the day, the my old order mennonite cousins enjoy sitting around the kitchen table with hymnals. they will sing and sing and sing in four part harmony for far longer than my voice will hold out. what i found quite interesting was that they were quite true to the written parts pitch-wise, but when it came to the time signature and rhythms, they did not 'follow the book', and i found it difficult to follow them. they were rhythmically together as a group, but did not sing the music as composed. i have never been to one of their church services, but i understand that some of their liturgical music is based on very old, virtually unchanged latin plainsong. i remember hearing that a musicologist once made some tapes in a service and discovered that. i wonder how true it is. ~black walnut |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Ebbie Date: 13 Mar 00 - 11:42 AM It depends on the individual church as to whether they allow any musical instruments. Ours, on the west coast and again in Virginia, allowed harmonicas and jaw harps (although I remember my mother was uncomfortable with our instruments when my grandparents visited) So far as I know, none allows guitars or other stringed instruments. It's all part of the illogic they live with daily. Whether Lomax or anyone else has compiled, translated or recorded their songs I have no idea. Someone may well have in the densely populated areas of Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana. I can find out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: SeanM Date: 13 Mar 00 - 12:37 PM I"ve got a Revels CD that lists this song/hymn, PALMS OF VICTORY as being Mennonite in origin. I've often heard that the Mennonites were a little more lax in regards to the areas of singing than their Amish neighbors, though without more than anecdotal proof. If true, there may be more of a song tradition within the Mennonites than the other branches. Then again, there may not. Gospel inclusive, there're bound to be a ton of hymns and other tunes that made it out into the "outside" world... M |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Ebbie Date: 13 Mar 00 - 12:49 PM You're so right, Black Walnut! Probably because they don't have instrumental backup, they learn the songs with phrasing that's passed down regionally. I've noticed that in different parts of the country they phrase it differently from each other. It's kind of like singing (or playing) by oneself- makes you form bad habits. And many Amish have never heard of measures- if they hold to them, it's instinctive, not conscious. Among the happy memories my family has is sitting around the big library table on Sunday evenings with the hymnals (NOT, however, the German song book that was used in church) singing. We were a big family that sang a lot and played a lot of games around that same table. Yes, I remember a musicologist, perhaps 40 years ago, taped and dissected their music. I've forgotten his name. I just talked with a sister- she's going to get me copies of a couple of songs, so I can take a look at them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Mar 00 - 06:11 PM The Mennonites are branched also. I know charismatic Mennonites, they sing old stuff and contemporary praise. I was told autoharp was one of few allowed instruments in some branches. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Ma-K Date: 13 Mar 00 - 09:04 PM We sometimes go to a store ouned by a Amish family. The stores name is The Dutchmans Store. On the the wall is a sign that says "Thou shall not steal, God will see you and the dutchman might" |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: GUEST,FP Date: 14 Mar 00 - 10:34 AM This is all really interesting; Ebbie, I don't suppose you could try and write something down in the Amish dialect? I have no idea what it is like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Ebbie Date: 14 Mar 00 - 11:44 AM FP, the dialect is from German, not English, so it really makes no sense in English. The Amish speak the dialect but their liturgical readings are in high German, as are their hymns. In Sunday school, children learn Bible stories in grammar books teaching German. As noted above, some of their novelty songs and stories are in the dialect, heavily interlaced with English. Some of their favorite jokes are on themselves and their language and the confusion it causes among non-Amish, the 'hoche', the 'high ones'. One story goes: a man comes to an Amish farm and asks the farm wife, "Where is your husband? She says, Out in back of the bastard.(pasture) He persists,I want to buy some heifers. She says, My heffars are all full of lardvark. (My crocks are full of applebutter) He says, Oh, go to Hell. Fah de vell, she responds, cheerily. (good bye) Or, on the train, an Amish woman beckons a porter. "I want a kissy, please" (pillow) He smiles and taps his cheek, "Here?" She says, No, and slaps her rear, "Here". These are the stories a kid doesn't forget! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Jacob B Date: 14 Mar 00 - 02:39 PM An Amish woman on a train? Isn't that a violation of the rule against using motors for transportation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Pontiac Joe Date: 15 Mar 00 - 08:54 AM Ilive in Berks county, Pennsylvania among many Amish and Mennonite families, and during the so called Y2K scare many of the folks that tease and offend were the ones who were ready to run to the old order for help. Joe |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Charlie Baum Date: 15 Mar 00 - 09:01 AM On the Bermuda Quadrangle album, Jeff Davis mentions in the liner notes that he collected the song "A Beautiful LIfe" from someone in the Amish community of Charm, Ohio. While the song may be implicitly religious, it is not explicitly so, certainly not to the point of being a hymn. It has a chorus:
Life's evening sun is sinking low The song also exists outside of the Amish tradition, but that is where Jeff Davis first encountered it. --Charlie Baum
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Ebbie Date: 15 Mar 00 - 11:39 AM Jacob B, they utilize all kinds of transportation- and technology, for that matter. Ownership is forbidden. Even telephones are allowed in a shop or barn or on a post if they are needed for one's business- just not in the home. When traveling by car, they hire a driver and vehicle. A driver raised in the Amish faith is preferred but only if he never actually joined - was baptized in- the church. If he has 'fallen away', he cannot be used. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: Dale Rose Date: 15 Mar 00 - 02:14 PM I think that all depends on what branch they are from as well. I am speaking from just my own small store of knowledge. I spent most of my young years in Whiteside County in Northwestern Illinois. I think most of the Amish in our community drove cars, mostly black Fords, with a few black Chevrolets. I remember one family had a dark blue Ford, the only exception that I knew of to the black Chevy/Ford monopoly. We all thought (as kids would) that that was quite daring. This would be the late 40s, early 50s. I have spent very little time in that area in recent years, so I have no information on what might be the favored transportation there now. There were a couple of Amish schools in our area, one of which was still operating the last I knew, but that has been a good while ago. Every now and then we would have a few Amish kids enroll in our public school at Tampico. I don't think any of them stayed more than a few months. I am pretty sure that they DID participate in our weekly music sessions from the traveling teacher, though. I cannot substantiate this, but a relative said that an Amish family he knew of had a radio in their attic. There, I think I have said all I know about the matter, and maybe a bit more. The only ones I was ever really acquainted with were the ones who came to the neighboring feed dealer ~~ pleasant people indeed, and according to the owner, his favorite customers. One in particular, I always enjoyed visiting with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 15 Mar 00 - 03:05 PM There have been many collections of songs and other sort of Pennsylvania Dutch Folkloric materials--Somewhere around here I have an old book that I believe is still available--a number children's of songs you probably know come from this tradition, including things like Dr. Ironbeard--I have heard a few fiddlers who play a traditional music There are very many "simple" sects besides Amish and Mennonites, each with their own ideas, tradtions and dress-different right down to the potato salad, all with an orientation toward keeping their tradtional way of life alive, but not all quite as isolated as the popular ideas about them -Down the road from us, in Franconia Twp in Montgomery County PA, there were two Mennonite Churches next to one another---one looked like something from the Little House on the Prarie, the other looked like a cooporate office center-- The LHP church had a parking lot full of Black Vans on Sundays, girls in aprons and bonnets, boys with brighly colored shirts and hats-- The other looked like anywhere else, except that the cars were always clean, and parked really well-- My daughter went to nursery school in a Mennonite Church, and once a week, the older women got together for a quilting session-- Another thing worth note--Many Mennonites use homeopathic and alternative medical treatments, and are have a commitment to political and social action that is similar to Quakers-- Curiously enough, along with the the other rather left-like tastes, many of my Mennonite acquaintances were very serious folk/tradtional music enthusiasts--
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Subject: RE: BS: The Amish and Folk Music From: GUEST,soddy Date: 15 Mar 00 - 03:31 PM Hey M Ted, I'd like to get in touch with some of your friends. I'm a Mennonite (of the Russian strain) and when I was in school, I was about the only one who was interested in folk/old-time country/bluegrass/ and the like. Sorta felt like a fish out of water. In fact when I go to class re-unions classmates still tell stories on me that always seem to involve me playing guitar. By the way, there's an old song sung in my ancestor's dialect about life on a Kansas farm and the hard weather, grasshoppers, etc. sung to the tune of "Beulah Land" called "Kaunsas Laundt" |
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