PA SYSTEMS

Subject: PA SYSTEMS
From: GUEST,Anthony
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 12:29 PM

Dear Virtual Friends and Neighbors,

I'm an old, weary and gray bluegrass/folky fingerstylist who "retired" from playing out about 15 years ago. Recently, however, I got the opportunity to start doing some shows again, either solo or with a backing flatpicker. (We're pretty hot, if I do say so myself.)

Anyway, all of a sudden we've gotten busy enough where the question of buying our own sound reinforcement has raised its ugly head. Mikes, monitors, enclosures, board, amp -- the works.

My technical know-how is way out of date, and there are scads of new products out there. Any of you youngsters using stuff you really like? Right now I'm leaning toward a small Peavey or Yamaha powered console, since we seldom play rooms with more than 500 folks. Frankly the brave new biamped/stereo/digital/preset world intimidates the heck out of me. But it all sure sounds good for them as know how to push the right buttons. Our system, by the way, would need to support two or three voices, a couple of guitars, two autoharps, mandolin, etc.

Any suggestion appreciated. Keep in mind that I'm an old, decrepit, lazy folksinger who hates carrying hardshell cases -- let alone heavy speaker enclosures. We need something lightweight, easy to run from the stage and VERY clean.

Best wishes to all, TONY

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Hyperabid
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 12:38 PM

If you have no dire need of stereo Trace Elliot provide a very adequate system of compimematry two and four channel amps with built in Reverb that can chain up to each other.

I am currently using a two channel version one jack channel for acoustic guitar and one balanced line channel for a mike.

Two two channel amps can be chained together or to a further 4 channel system.

In this wway you can creat 4 or 8 channel system or go out on your own with two channels.

Amplification is solid state linear so it suits folk instruments and each unit a 5-6 band graphic EQ.

Digital reverb effects can be selected for both channels.

All in all this allows for great flecibility for the jobbing muso without crippling the pocket.

And as for the Trace Elliot... ****ing fantastic mate.

Hyp

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Bert
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:18 PM

'a backing flatpicker' that could almost be used as an insult. - "You Backing Flatpicker"

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: GeorgeH
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:43 PM

I'd say forget all the latest hi-tech wizardry and go for good second-hand gear; you'll get much more for your money, and something about 5 years old should be as good as the latest kit (also no point paying for "extras" you're not going to be able to use in your set-up). But make sure you can try it out somewhere where you can turn the output up WAY beyond what you're going to use for your performances.

G.

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 01:54 PM

Tony, as a full-time pro musician entertainer of advancing years, I use Bose 402's (2) on light aluminum Ultimate tripods, with a Peavey XRD 680 Plus powered mixer which is 8 channel 800 watts with digital efx. I use an individual Boss powered monitor, and the whole shooting match is small, light, (the Bose 402's in their carrying-case weigh a total of 34 lbs) and powerful enough to fill small, medium and large rooms. I also use the system in 500/600 seat tents at summer festivals. AND I got most of the stuff used on e-bay. All the best. Seamus

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: MK
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 02:20 PM

Hi Anthony. I agree with most of what has been offered here...but I'll get my 2 cents in as well, having gigged professionally for about 18 years, and now retired from performing publicly.

For acoustic instruments and the human voice, nothing beats Bose speakers....especially an older set of 800s or 802s...These speakers as amazing as they sound are somewhat inefficient however and require at least 250 watts of power per side...so you'd need a decent stereo power amp that pushes a total of at least 500 watts...These speakers are fairly light weight and packup into small suitcase-like boxes once they're protective covers are on...and mount on top of lightweight, adjustable telescopic-style stands....Most major music stores that have a p.a. department would know exactly what I'm talking about...

Small Electrovoice Elite speakers work well too, and may be more readily found. You'd need a decent 12 - 16 channel mixing board, enabled with a separate monitor mix section, and you'll need a few good floor monitors and a separate power amp to drive them, that will also feed into your mixer.

I'd suggest renting with the option to buy, until you find exactly the right combination of equipment to suit yours and the other musicians' needs. Either of these speaker systems will cut up to 500 people no problem.

Build whatever the cost of your p.a. rentals are, into the purchase price you charge your clients....so figure whatever it is you need to pay the other musicians, as well as what you want for yourself, and then add the p.a. rental cost that...If the places you are playing want you and the band badly enough, they'll pay it...and monthly p.a. rentals shouldn't make or break the cost of hiring your group. They are a necessary part of gigging.

Renting the p.a. will also provide you with a 100% tax write off, if you are deriving any income from these gigs, as well...and the advantage (like anything) is that you are not locked into anything long term...Just go month to month or week to week, depending on the frequency of gigs...and use this p.a. system in rehearsals as well so you know all the ins and outs of it. Best of luck.

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 06:46 PM

For some years while in the UK I used a small Ohm system. Similar principle of several small speakers per enclosure as Bose (which are excellent systems) but a LOT cheaper. I have also been impressed by a very neat and compact Dynacord system I have seen but unfortunately couldn't afford it (what with buying a new guitar and mandola and the thorny and perennial problem of trying to feed and house clan McMoo as well!)

All the best,

mcmoo

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Willie-O
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 08:59 PM

The intitial message in this thread could have been written by me with a few changes (substitute "50" for "500", my working budget is "$0" so I face the agonizing choice of what instruments to trade in, (maybe even the Martin) and for starters I'll be working alone...)

I have tried Trace Elliotts and like them very much. I'll be looking into this option. Another little box that seems very good value is a compact Mackie 1202 unpowered mixer, it's got 4 XLR inputs, and 4 1/4" jacks that are supposedly stereo, and is about the size of a computer book. A multi-instrumentalist or small group can use one of these to piggyback into a powered board, or something like the Trace Elliott I presume, with all the inputs and flexibility you need...tres cool. Prices I've seen online for used ones in good shape are $425 Canadian, and $275 U.S. (different sellers).

Willie-O

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Owlkat
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 03:25 AM

Hi hi,
Here's my two cents.
The first thing you do is set a budget, and stick to it. A little bit more here and there for slightly better mics and stands and cables and monitors and poweramps and before you know it, you've just priced yourself out of existence.
HOW BIG IS YOUR TRANSPORTATION? This matters. If you've got a van, great. You can go nuts. Get big mains, and lots of separate components. If, on the other hand, you have a Honda Civic, consider what is actually going to fit in the car.
You don't have to get premium components, to get adequate quality and function. Sure you can spend $300 for one Shure Beta 58 microphone, if that's what you really need. But, what if you need four mics? That's over a grand for just one element of the system.You can get a good dynamic mic for less, that will do the job. Check out deals on AKG and Samson, for example. Ask for a deal on a quantity purchase. Be careful about buying used mics. They can have the poo beaten out of them, and not show it. CHECK THEM OUT BEFORE BUYING.
You aren't going to need 100 foot mic cables often enough to spend the extra dough. 25 to 35 footers will do. Get serious speaker cable and plugs. Look for switchcraft plugs, and tough cable. Lamp cord is flimsy and can crack, short, and overheat(cause fires). This is a bad thing.
Look for mic stands with folding tripod legs and booms. You can spend up to a couple hundred for a mic stand but you don't have to. 45 bucks(in Canada)gets you a decent stand.
How many mixer channels do you REALLY need? If you're a duo, a compact six channel powered mixer should do. A quartet can get by with eight channels, but if you can afford a ten or twelve channel mixer, go for it. As far as powered versus unpowered mixers is concerned,using a separate poweramp will give you a more reliable power source, but it's nice to have your power and mixer all in one box. How useful are the eq controls on the board? Can you eq the monitors and mains separately? Is there phantom power for condensor mics?
AGAIN, IF YOU BUY A USED MIXER, HAVE A PRO SHOP CHECK ALL CHANNELS, FUSES, POTS, JACKS, AND PLUGS BEFORE PUTTING A SINGLE DOLLAR DOWN. ESPECIALLY, IF YOU'RE BUYING STUFF FROM A FRIEND.
Consider lighting of some kind. Get some gels colours (blue, amber, red)so you can be lit and not look like you drowned a month ago.
There are speakers/mains of virtually every size, shape, weight, and power-handling capacity. Consider your needs carefully. Do you need bass bins in addition to mid-high enclosures? How many monitors do you need? Can you get by with two? Four? Monitors come as passive, or with their own power source. Which ones are luxury, and which are must-have? Have you ever tried speakers with their own power source that eliminates the need for a power amp?
Now comes the fun part. Read. Read lots. Go to pro shops and ask lots of questions. See what they send out for rentals. Try out a rental system for a gig and see what it does for you. Ask friends what they use and why.
Above all, remember, this is an adventure in Techie land. Window shopping can be fun. So enjoy it. Really. Good luck.
Anyhoo, that's all I can think of for now.
Cheers.
Owl.

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Hyperabid
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 04:21 AM

Willie-O. I can highly recommend the Trace Acoustic series.

I play the TA100R. It had excellent volume, low noise and pulls a rich fruity sound from even a middle of the range Yamaha Electro-Acoustic guitar. Never had any complaints. I thought the felxibilty options might be of interest to out guest Anthony.

Regards.

Hyp

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: reggie miles
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 05:18 AM

Hyperabid, "rich (fruity) sound"? I don't think I've ever heard that adjective used to desribe a sound's quality, a wine yes but never the sound a PA could impart to a musical instrument. I guess I've really got to get out more. I wonder if I could get fruity sounds out of my old PA that I'm using now? Do you think we'll begin to see digital fruity effects boxes available soon? So those of us without fruity sounds can add this illusive effect to our burgeoning bank of digital melee. I wonder if veggy sound will be available soon?

I couldn't hep mysef ;>)

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Hyperabid
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 05:43 AM

Well reggie I have come accross one PA that made noises similar to those you find yourself making after overindulging in beans and pulses...

As for describing sounds as "fruity" or "airy" or "grungy" or "gamage" or "jangly"...

I'm afraid I'm guilty as charged of all of the above your honour.

Hyp ;-)

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 06:31 AM

Rich...fruity...with a fine persistent nose and aftertones of oak and tannins...

Ah, yes....must be a Trace Elliot Burgundy 1993 vintage...

mcmoo

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Hyperabid
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 06:46 AM

Mmmm

I smelling mung beans... ugly fruit... freshly mown grass... and a sort of lemon zesty tang...

Am I at a wine tasting...

No I've fallen asleep face first in a bowl of pot pourri...

:-P

Hyp

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Jacob B
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 11:41 AM

Owlkat brought up the subject of stage lighting. This is a subject that I far more about than I know about PA systems. If anyone is really interested, please start another thread on Monday (I probably wouldn't see it if you started it over the weekend) and I'll be glad to pontificate on the subject.

Jacob

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 07:08 PM

Check out http:/www.carvin.com

GREAT Stuff!!! Been using Carvin gear for about 20 years.

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: GUEST,Garry of Australia
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 10:16 PM

I have to agree with Michael K, Bose Speakers plus a 12 channel mixer etc is the way to go. These self contained mixers such as Yamaha with amps combined 3 serious disadvantages, 1 if they fail the whole lot fails, 2 they are difficult to expand and 3 usually lack features found in stand alone mixers and amps. I play semi professionally sometimes 8 times in 2 weeks and all my gear is packaged so that it packs in the car easily, it is not too heavy and I have a 12 channel Behringer Mixer (good price and lots of features) plus separate amps. If my main amp breaks down (which has happened) I am able to swing the monitor amp into action for out the front. The monitor amp may be small but it beats losing the whole system. I also carry a spare small 6 channel mixer as a back up

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 08:29 AM

As has been noted above, the choices are endless and mind boggling. You may find some help and decent selection and prices at www.fullcompass.com .They are located in Wisconsin. They put out a nice catalog. The last one I got is 224 pages with 13 pages of mixers (6-9 per page). Good luck.

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: GUEST,mike m
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 12:08 AM

We use sound system that have hasn't proven us wrong for 8 years+...... here it is: 2 bose 402 speakers w/eq 1 crown MT1200 power amp (I bought it used via ebay..) Yamaha MX-12 mixer explanation: I also own the bose 802's.......and haven't used them since I purchased a pair of 402's...... my classical trio performs many "concert in the park" gigs throughout the summer months (up here in MA) and sound great with the 402's......I also use the 402's for a polka band that I play with (as the high-end of a 2 way system for outdoor festivals)...they are great..the 802's have dust on them. If you have the power to drive them,,,, Bose all the way,,,,, for venues up to 500 people. As musicians, WE CAN'T AFFORD TO SOUND BAD! Mike M. Allegro Chamber Players

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 01:32 AM

Mackie powered mixer, Electrovoice speakers, Beta 57 and 58 mics.

Subject: RE: PA SYSTEMS
From: Musicman
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 02:28 AM

ok... so here's my system..... (why not eh?)

for large band gigs:

Mackie CFX20 board.. (non-powered, much lighter than powered), 2 JBL Eon powered speakers 15" for mains, and two JBL Eons 10" for monitors.. (although in small gigs i can use the 10" as mains too...

I also have a Behringer 802 mixer, 8 channel (4 mic/line, 2 stereo) for small/solo gigs....

i can also use the Behringer and 1 JBL 10" for coffee shops to 'enhance' my sound for solo gigs....

I find using powered speakers are great.. they don't weight that much more and the boards weight alot less..... (used to run a Yorkville Audiopro 1216, weighed 2X as much as the mackie.....)

the JBL speakers are awesome... have used them in a field, just the 15" as mains,, great sound... and the 10" have incredible sound as well...

anyway... my $.02 worth.....

Oh, and if you want to record your gig.. Creative Nomad Jukebox is the ticket for me...... line in from the tape out, and with the 6gb hard drive.. will record 8hrs + of music in .wav format and transfer to computer via USB.....

musicman