Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: GUEST,Ann Parsons
Date: 28 Mar 24 - 10:42 AM

I'm looking for contact details for Pete Scrowther

---

Hi, Ann - please see this thread (click).
Thanks.
Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Mar 23 - 10:43 PM

I'd suggest that Mudcatters read my guide to searching. It's the first message in the FAQ thread.
https://mudcat.org/detail_pf.cfm?messages__Message_ID=196922

People always go to the Mudcat search, but it has never been reliable - Max never got it past the experimental stage. Our older, more reliable search engines are the Filter (top of the Forum Menu) and the Old Advanced Forum Search (in QuickLinks)
https://mudcat.org/forumsearch.cfm

The Filter searches by thread name. Put one distinctive word (like international) in the Filter box and set the age back to "all," and refresh. Then do a secondary search of the results with CTRL-F, maybe looking for women (or whatever). You'll be amazed what you can do with CTRL-F on any Web page. A search and then a secondary search are very powerful.

The "Old Advanced Forum Search" can search for MESSAGE title (subject), and I have been re-titling messages for 25 years to make this more useful. It can also be used by UserName, to find messages posted by whomever. If you're looking for your own messages, click on your name in any message you've posted, and you'll find your Mudcat Life History.

Hope that helps.

Subject: Message: I Delete Most of Your Threads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Feb 23 - 03:59 PM

I sent a personal message to a Mudcatter today and titled my message "I Delete Most of Your Threads."

Here's the message, redacted:

Hi, xxx - you seem to like to start threads at Mudcat. We already have over 172,000 threads at Mudcat, and we really don't need more. We try to encourage people to add to existing threads, and to start a new thread only when the subject hasn't been discussed before. Before starting a new thread, use the Filter at the top of the list of threads, and search for a thread on your subject. I moved your message to [another thread on the performer], and that revives that wonderful earlier discussion.
I hope you understand.

-Joe-


P.S. If you post something that isn't offensive and you can't find it, it probably was moved and not deleted. You can find all your messages by clicking on your name in any message you've posted.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: GUEST,fricklefrackfreddy
Date: 23 Aug 22 - 11:03 PM

Newbie here. Any Pentangle songs demystified? Particularly songs from their 1991 Album 'Think of Tomorrow' like Meat on the Bone.

---

Pentangle threads (click)

Subject: Clickable links
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 03:02 PM

! DaveRo thanks !

It works for links to mudcat too.
:)

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: DaveRo
Date: 21 Nov 21 - 02:41 AM

Perhaps I could mention this here?

Someone commented recently that the blicky-thing failed with long URLs, so I created a simple replacement:

Simple linkifier

You could bookmark it.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 07:45 PM

I can't make sense out of much of Many Mudcat threads with the invasive ads. If you have the same problem, please remember that there is an ads-free version of every post and every thread in the "printer-friendly" option.
Use [CTRL-F] and search for friendly

Subject: Moderation Change: 3 May 2020
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 04:02 AM

Thread #167769   Message #4050150
Posted By: GUEST,Mods
03-May-20 - 01:44 PM
Thread Name: Moderation Change
Subject: Moderation Change

We, as moderators, are deleting battles between people. They seem to be mostly about who is involved, not the purported subject of the thread.
It could be called trolling.

As it seems to usually be the same people involved, we’ve decided to remove the people.
So please, consider what you have to say.
We have decided to stop it. Political discussion is one thing, but these seem to be excuses to attack one another. They don’t end, and they get nastier as time passes.

If you find your membership disappeared, or you’ve been blocked, let the Mudcat moderators know why they should let you back in.
You can contact them through [e-mail]

Please know that decisions, both on suspension and reinstatement, will be by consensus. No one person decides.

I’m going to close this thread. There is no discussion.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 19 - 12:01 AM

I like the forums where guests can post immediately, but they have to wait for moderator approval for the post to appear. Our software doesn't accommodate that feature. We've looked into changing to more modern software, but the changeover doesn't allow us to import all the wonderful posts from the golden years of Mudcat, when people like Rick Fielding and Art Thieme and Sandy Paton and Jean Ritchie were posting.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 09:25 PM

I thought it was ironic that Dick Gaughan once posted here and said he didn't want to join because he didn't want a cookie. Then, he created a forum where you HAD to be a member to post. I guess all it proves is that people acquire new info and change their minds sometimes. (And I miss his forum.)

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 09:06 PM

Well, no. When people see something here and want to answer, we get the best answers when we let people post without having to wait a day to register.
Our "regulars" are very valuable to us, but we need the spontaneous input of outsiders to keep us fresh and prevent us from becoming ingrown (more ingrown than we are).
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 08:02 PM

I do get that, actually. But if Si Khan was so exercised as to want to post here, surely a quick prior registration oughtn't to be beyond him...?

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 07:50 PM

Well, it's a mixed bag. We get some really priceless one-time posts from people who have valuable information on a particular subject - people like Si Kahn, who drops in now and then to comment on his songs. Other people come as guests and decide to stay. Many of these people wouldn't bother going through the hassle of registration just to give us one post. It's that music information that we're here for, not the thousand-message marathons that usually end up in squabbles.
Maybe we should move the marathons into the BS section, where only members are allowed to post.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 07:21 PM

Then fight again, Joe. Remember Pseud...

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 07:12 PM

I agree about unnamed guests, Steve, but I lost that battle.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 19 - 04:08 PM

Ah yes. Anonymous unsigned guests. Stevie's 'obby 'oss. From the rules of the now sadly-defunct Gaughan forum:

2. No anonymous members.
It is a requirement of forum membership that you let the other members know who you are. There is not a single good reason in a forum of this kind for anonymity. If you are normally known by a nickname, by all means use it here; my birth name was Richard but the only people who ever use that are my parents (both dead) and my two sisters and their children. The no-anonymity rule is not here to check people's birth certificates, it is simply so that we all know who we're talking to and the risk of anonymous trolling is reduced. As said, by all means use a nickname on posts but please put your real name in your member profile and you will be asked to give it when registering.

So if you troll or otherwise post inappropriate stuff, as above, the mods know who you are and you're toast. Good, eh? As ever, only in m'humble, and this is never my gig.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 18 - 02:22 PM

Search Problems?

Remember that the main search engine depends on an index that has to be generated, so the recency of those searches depends on how recently Max updated the index.

There are other search engines on the Old Advanced Forum Search on the quicklinks dropdown menu on most Mudcat pages.

My favorite search engine is the Filter box at the top of the list of threads on the Forum Menu. It searches by thread name, and it's quick and accurate. Use one or two key words in the Filter, and then set the Age back. You can do a secondary search of the results with CTRL-F.

Other search tips in the FAQ, above.

And if you still can't find it, ask a moderator or start a thread and ask.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 05:36 PM

Hm, my view reverted to the mixed view I'd chosen, when I logged back in, but during that process "click here to view or edit your personal...." and that's not where that link actually goes..... and I had not logged out to start with. ...

---

It won't mix unless you're logged in. I don't know of any places where members can change their registration information any more. We had to block access to that, to make impersonation more difficult. If your settings changed without your changing them, first try logging out and logging in again. If that doesn't work or if you need to change your registration, contact me by email.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 18 - 05:31 PM

Where's the spot for setting my thread view to mix music and BS?

~S~

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: GUEST,Ann Boulden
Date: 04 Aug 18 - 02:21 PM

My father worked on the narrow gauge railroad in CO way back when. He used to sing 'Wreck of Old 99'. I can't remember all the words so would like to find them on here. Thanks.

---

Hi, Ann -
I think you want Wreck of the Old 97 (click). If this isn't the one, please email me.
-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor, [e-mail] -

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 09 May 17 - 04:06 PM

Hi Runrig - If you just add 5 hours to the Mudcat time, you should get the British time. It only gets dodgy for a few weeks each year when Daylight Savings kicks in or out, because that happens on different dates across the globe, and it goes out of whack for a little while. But for the majority of the time, that's a reliable guide.

The Firefox browser has (or used to have) a nifty little free extension called Fox Clocks, which gives the times in all the various zones, and you can choose which areas you want it to display on its menu when you click. I don't know the latest state of play though, so that info could be out of date,

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: RunrigFan
Date: 09 May 17 - 03:00 PM

OK, it;s just hard to tell the time in US from UK as US has -5 or-8 timezones.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 17 - 02:07 PM

Hi, Runrig-
Mudcat runs on software from 1996, so we don't have all the bells and whistles of modern software. We also don't have some of the glitches of more modern software.
Lately, we've had a problem with some of the clocks on some of our servers (we have many) being out of sync, and that is a real problem that Max is trying to resolve.
The time stamps are an easy way to talk about a message. If I talk about your message posted 09 May 17 at 01:49PM, everybody can tell exactly what message I'm talking about. If we had different time stamps for everybody, that would do away with that functionality.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 May 17 - 11:20 AM

At the very bottom of the list of threads there's a note of the current 'Mudcat Time', currently: Mudcat time: 9 May 2017 - 11:13 AM EDT
This can be compared to the time on the most recent posting for how long since the last post, or compared to your local time to know what time difference to allow for.
By the time I type all of this (on two fingers) it will probably be a few minutes out from the time stamp I quoted above!

Cheers

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: DaveRo
Date: 09 May 17 - 10:31 AM

I considered making my Mudcat Browser Tools addon change the displayed times to my local (UK) timezone. It would be quite easy to do. I didn't, mainly because it's not really a problem, but also because you sometimes have to quote the time of a post - they're not (visibly) numbered.

Referring to FreddyHeady's question of 04 Apr 17 - 08:02 AM: the addon will automatically fill in the same guest username. But only on the same computer (and on supported browsers).

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: RunrigFan
Date: 09 May 17 - 10:30 AM

No you're not understanding. If you go to a forum, you can change date/time/timezone. Here it;s US format and since I'm from the UK, I forget mudcat uses DST.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Jeri
Date: 09 May 17 - 09:58 AM

The way Mudcat time-stamps and indexes messages, it can only deal with the one time zone. (Although it occasionally gets wibbly-wobbly)

If you can figure out how to change Mudcat's time on individual computers, please share. There are probably a few people are confused by having to add 5 hours onto the time. (Or less, or more, or if you're west of Mudcat central, subtract time.)
Think of it sort of MCT (Mudcat Central Time), like GMT.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: RunrigFan
Date: 09 May 17 - 09:39 AM

I'm from the UK and keep forgetting it's DST time. Or allow member to change the timeone in their area. Not everyone on here is from USA.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Jeri
Date: 09 May 17 - 09:37 AM

To what? Why? It's Eastern (Daylight) Time, and seems to currently be correct.
Changing the time zone would be fairly complicated as Max would have to move everything, and I think he's happy where he is (aside from stormishness).
Yeah, Joe, I know this is getting deleted. 😀

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: RunrigFan
Date: 09 May 17 - 06:58 AM

Hi can we change the timezone

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 04 Apr 17 - 10:38 AM

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Apr 17 - 09:56 AM

FreddyHeadey, the short answer is "no". People can type whatever they want into the guest "From" block, and they have to type it (or not) for every post.
We (Moderators/admin volunteers/people with magic buttons) try to watch for identity usurpers, but there's no guarantee we'll notice them. Membership's the only way to preserve and protect a unique name.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 04 Apr 17 - 08:02 AM

thread.cfm?threadid=19340#213795 
If a guest adds a nickname will all subsequent posts in that name be from the same person?
e.g.
http://mudcat.org/usersearch.cfm?who=GUEST%2CGuest 

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 Oct 16 - 06:46 PM

Dear Mr. Pork,

Post your question to a New Thread using Lyric Requested and the first line of the chorus. I bet you will receive an answer within 24 hours.

1. Look for the BOLD type face Create A New Thread Upper Left Side and click.

2. Select "Lyrics Requested" from the "pull-down menue" (first one)

3. Use your three word chorus for the title.

4. Post in the box below...exactly what you have requested in this thread.

5. Wait for the answers to roll in....And they will.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

---------------

Look for thread titled "Persevere, Persevere." -ed-

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: maeve
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 01:45 PM

Thanks, Susan.

Wishing you and Dick good health and much joy,

Maeve

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Susan of DT
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 07:48 AM

There is some really ancient contact info for me and Dick Greenhaus in parts of this thread that were written a long time ago.
    current: [e-mail] 800 548-FOLK
             We are in Lansdale, PA (USA). PM if you need details
             I'd rather not post my email, so PM to contact me.

Old addresses/emails/phones are listed under:
    Get you mudcat tee shirt (no longer available anyway)
    Who's in charge
    About the Digital Tradition (written in 1999)
    DT Official Rules
    Get your own copy-has not been available on floppies in many years
    Contact mudcat and digitrad

Updating and correcting the Digital Tradition.
    Due to technical problems, it has not been possible to update/correct the DT for several years. Max is working on a solution. I have stopped monitoring the corrections thread, since I cannot do anything useful about it.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Feb 15 - 10:29 PM

Non-members: to contact members, e-mail [e-mail]

In general, I don't think it's a good idea for Mudcatters to post personal e-mail addresses (their own, of that of others) in the Forum. Occasionally, a non-member will want to make contact with a member, and Mudcatters will often instruct the Guest to join Mudcat so they can send a personal message. I have an easier solution - have them e-mail their message to Mudcat's Registrar, [e-mail], and he will be glad to forward the e-mail to the member.

Don't bother trying to protect me by posting my email in any sort of code like "joe(at)mudcat(dot)org" - my e-mail is intended to be public, and I just put up with the Spam. Thank you for your concern, but it isn't necessary. Feel free to post [e-mail] wherever you like.

I have no way of contacting Guests unless they have furnished an email address to me or the Forum for some reason. And we never release member registration information to anyone.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 May 14 - 01:42 PM

If a message doesn't "take," it's gone forever. Usually, what happens is that you've posted on a thread that was stored on your computer, not loaded fresh. As a precaution, it's best to highlight [CTRL-A] and copy [CTRL-C] all long messages before you post, and then check the thread to make sure it posted. If it didn't, refresh [F5] your thread to make sure it's a new load, and then paste [CTRL-V] your message text into a message box and "Submit."

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 09:34 PM

Hot Tip:

Thread too big to load in your computer?

In the "messages" column on the Forum Menu, there's a column of numbers that tells how many messages are in each thread. If the thread has more than 50 messages, that number is a clickable link that will display the thread in batches of 50 messages. Next to that number is a small "d" that is a link that will display the messages in reverse (descending) order.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 10:36 PM

Hi, Karl -
Sorry I missed your message until now. The "easy way" isn't working just now, but there's a workaround. You can't extract MIDIs easily from the downloadable Digital Tradition, which has melodies in the Songwright format. So, the next step would be to go to the online Digital Tradition and download the MIDI, but our MIDIs aren't working right now.
Luckily, there's a Digital Tradition mirror known as Yet Another Digital Tradition (click here), and it has a link to a MIDI (or click here). E-mail me if you have trouble.

-Joe Offer, Mudcat Archivist-
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: GUEST,Karl Dallas
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 09:58 AM

I have downloaded the database and I'm using it. But I have a technical problem perhaps someone can help me with.
I've written some new words to Florence Reece's Which Side Are You On. What I want to do is to find the midi file and add my words below the music line.
Well, here's my puzzle.
If you access the list of songs, Which Side Are You On isn't listed.
But if you do a search, there it is.
In the /tunes folder, some of the midi files are listed (in the old 8.3 format) but there's nothing remotely like Which Side.
So where does the playback of the song get its data?
I'll post the lyrics to The Skiffler's Song, when I've sorted this out.

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:43 AM

Mudcat Photos (click)

(Temporary Location)

Is now closed, and we haven't come up with a replacement. However, if there's something you'd really like people to see, especially if it's musical, Joe Offer is willing to post a limited number of photos on his own Website.
Send photos for posting to [e-mail]
Updated 214 March 2014

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:14 PM

Posting Lyrics

I've noticed lately that a lot of lyrics are being posted without a title, and without the name of the songwriter. Sometimes, the title and songwriter name can be determined by reading the thread, and sometimes not. This may seem redundant, but it's nice to know for certain what the song was called by the source it came from.

When posting lyrics, please include the song title and songwriter name at the beginning of the lyrics, and source and background information at the end. At the very least, please tell us where you got the lyrics.

Thanks.

-Joe Offer, Mudcat Archivist-

Subject: Posting Songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 May 11 - 05:57 PM

For the sake of uniformity, and to make it easy for Digital Tradition harvesters, we ask that songs be posted in the Digital Tradition Format - title in ALLCAPS, then the songwriter name in parentheses, then skip a space, then the text of the song, and then source information and notes.

The Message title should have ADD and the title of the song, in Title Case (not ALLCAPS).

Subject: Finding Lost Posts
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 12:43 AM

I try posting, but get back to the Forum Menu page, check the thread, and my message isn't there.

BillD discovered the solution to this. What happens when your message doesn't post is that you were posting on a copy of the thread that was saved by your browser, not a fresh copy. To force your browser to download a fresh copy, click the "reload" button on your browser (usually a circular-arrow icon) - pushing F5 usually works, too. THEN you can post, and it almost always "takes."

Getting your lost typing back is another matter. It will sometimes come back if you use your "backspace" key or the "back" button on your browser, but not always.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. When posting long messages, here's a good thing to do before hitting the "Submit" button:

• Highlight your typed text by hitting CTRL-A
• Copy your text to your clipboard CTRL-C
• If you need to, Paste the text - CTRL-V - into the refreshed message box and submit again.
  
  If you can't do this right away, your typing will be lost forever.
  
  But hey, blame your browser, not Mudcat.
  
  -Joe-

Subject: Spam
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 05:21 PM

As I've said many times before, please don't bother to notify moderators about Spam unless it is more than 24 hours old. We regularly check Guest messages, and most Spam gets cleared in our regular checks.
It's a horrible hassle to follow up on individual Spam messages, because we often get several dozen a day.
Be patient, and it will be removed.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 12:17 AM

Hi, Rowan -
It's actually a good feeling to know that somebody reads what I wrote, closely enough to find my mistakes.

There's information on posting in the Digital Tradition format here in the FAQ thread.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 08:20 PM

Greetings All,
The first sentence of the first post in this thread (currently) reads
"If you're looking for a song, you'll often find it right here in the Digital Tradition Folk Song Database. Feel free to post a request, but we ask you to use the search box in the upper-left corner of this page (and most other Mudcat pages) to search the database and forum for your lyrics you post a request for them." [I've removed the formatting.]

It occurs to me that it might (better) read
"If you're looking for a song, you'll often find it right here in the Digital Tradition Folk Song Database. Feel free to post a request, but we ask you to use the search box in the upper-left corner of this page (and most other Mudcat pages) to search the database and forum for your lyrics before you post a request for them." [I've italicised the suggested amendment.]

But, it has lasted so long that, it occurs to me, it might be one of your clever tricks to get people to concentrate.

As an aside, now that the Search engine is again running, I'll be able to find the original words to "I've been everywhere" (as sung by Lucky Starr, using Australian place names) so they can be added to the DT alongside (but 'preceding') Hank Snow's effort on Canadian place names. A long-ago Mudcat thread had a post with all the material required by the DT harvesters but I haven't been able to resuscitate it recently. If I find it before you do I'll do as recommended in the posts above.

Many thanks for your efforts.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 09:55 AM

In THIS THREAD, there Is, IMNSHO, the clearest explanation (with an example right in it as well) of why and how certain threads get closed.

A link to it in the FAQ, or quoting it wholesale, would do much to buttress policy.

~S~

Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:58 PM

I have two albums which I made over the last ten years. I was told that you review albums. If this is true could you tell how and where to send them to.

Thank you,

Simon Davey

---

Hi, Simon. We're primarily a forum for Traditional Folk, but members of our community post on anything and everything. If your music is in the folk or blues genre, you're probably best off to find somebody you know, and ask that person to review the recordings and post their review here. If you have online sample recordings available, post a link so people can hear your work.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-