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Origin: Ride a Cock Horse to Banbury Cross
Related thread:
she will have music wherever she goes (4)
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Subject: Info req: ride a cock horse From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:02 PM Does anyone know anything about the history (where first documented, where different versions may be found) of the song that begins "Ride a cock horse to Banbury Cross" ? If it has a title different from its first line, I'd like to know that title, too. Thanks, T. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Bert Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:30 PM You'll find a discussion of the songhere Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:43 PM Hi, T - The version I learned is Ride a cock horse to Banbury CrossThe Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes (Iona & Peter Opie, 1951, 1997) gives this and two other versions, all from the 18th century. They note that some versions describe the lady as old and the horse as black, and the destination as Coventry Cross. Here are the other versions: Ride a cock horse to Banbury CrossThe notes after that third version are fascinating: The pastry cake of Banbury has been renowned for several centuries. 'Banberie cakes' are referred to in 1586. Their ingredients are mixed peel, biscuit crumbs, currants, allspice, eggs, and butter, folded into a circle of puff pastry. And very good they are, too. When in Banbury it was well worth visiting 12 Parson's Street, 'the original Banbury Cake shop,' to try one. This book is fascinating. I may post more later. No, I gotta do it now.... The Opies guess the song comes from the 15th century, since the cross at Banbury was destroyed at the turn of the 16th century. A Jesuit priest wrote in 1601, "The inhabitants of Banbury being far gone in Puritanism, in a furious zeal tumultuously assailed the Cross that stood in the market place, and so defaced in that they scarcely left one stone standing upon another." The term cock-horse has always been used to describe a proud, high-spirited horse. To "ride a cock horse" is usually taken to refer to straddling a toy horse (or grown-up's knee) and is found used in this sense since 1540. It has been suggested that "bells on her toes" points to the 15th century, when a bell was worn on the long tapering toe of each shoe. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:46 PM I thought there had been a previous discussion of this song - but I searched for "cock horse" and "Banbury." -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:47 PM thanks, bert. I have always imagined that a "cock horse" was a horse with its mane bound with ribbons so that it resembled a cock's comb. T. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:53 PM Joe, thanks for your info. The marketplace in Banbury might still have been called "Banbury Cross" even after the cross was knocked down: force of habit. So the song needn't derive from when the cross still stood. Are not ankle-bells (as sometimes worn by morris-dancers) somtimes spoken of as being "on the toes" ? T. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Mar 00 - 03:28 PM Hi, T - the Opies go on to say that the cross was indeed located in the marketplace at Banbury, and that it was replaced at a later time. Their written sources for the song go back to the early part of the 18th century. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: kendall Date: 28 Mar 00 - 05:07 PM I still say it is CORK horse |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Mar 00 - 06:02 PM Have you always lived in Maine, Kendall? <grin> -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: kendall Date: 28 Mar 00 - 09:18 PM All except 9 months in Mass. why? |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Mar 00 - 03:48 AM Remember how you learned this song, Kendall - I'll bet you didn't see this song in print until 20 years after you learned it. Oral tradition allows for a wider variation in interpretations of words in a song. You Mainers do have a bit of an unusual way with your words, so certainly you'd have an interesting variation on this. How was it you pronounce the names of those towns up north, like Lubec and Calais, eh? Even Bangor is a bit different than the way the rest of us would pronounce it. Ayup. There's a difference. A very nice difference, but a difference nonetheless. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: kendall Date: 29 Mar 00 - 08:22 AM But, Joe, CORK horse makes sense..cock horse doesn't!! cork is a type of wood. Just the stuff to make a rocking horse out of. What sort of horse could one make of..cock?? This rhyme originated in England, now, in both England and Maine, the letter "r" is silent except when appearing as the first letter of a word. I must admit that we do have an unusual way of speaking, but, By the Jesus chummy, we can spell!! LOL |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Bert Date: 29 Mar 00 - 11:59 AM Kendall, I searched the web to see if I could find a picture of one for you. BIG MISTAKE, do NOT search the web for 'cock horse'. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: MMario Date: 29 Mar 00 - 12:15 PM Kendall - I think you're going to lose on this one..."Ride a cock horse" has a very specific usage documented back to 1540 (see above if you don't believe me) and a general usage prior to that.
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Bert Date: 29 Mar 00 - 12:16 PM Here's a picture of one. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: kendall Date: 29 Mar 00 - 02:49 PM That is advertised as a "stick" horse, not cock??? |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: kendall Date: 29 Mar 00 - 02:54 PM Lookie, I'm not above learning something, but, the argument I put forth for "cork" horse still makes more sense (to me) than "cock" horse. This is a childs toy for Pete's sake..cock horse?? Does it refer to a dick or a rooster? or, maybe a rooster named dick... |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: MMario Date: 29 Mar 00 - 03:08 PM But Kendall - stick horses have been known (it is a documented fact) as "cock horses" for at LEAST 460 years. And "cock horse" make a lot of sense when you look at one being ridden in profile.
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: kendall Date: 29 Mar 00 - 03:58 PM But, little girls rode them too!!! and, the horses..oh shit. Ok, I give up. I'll have to admit you have a point, but, geez children and cocks?? not in my back yard lol |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Bert Date: 29 Mar 00 - 04:04 PM It refers to a dick. The kid sits astride the stick, with the wheels on the ground behind him and the head held up in front. The stick is then in just the right position to give the horse it's name. I'd never heard of them being called stick horses 'till I went looking for one on the web. We learned it in school when we were kids (it seems like 460 years, but it's not quite that long ago;-). I guess by the time we learned the meaning, we were too old to play with one anyway (cock horse, that is). If it offends your sensibilities feel free to sing.. 'Ride a stick horse to Banbury cross' ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: MMario Date: 29 Mar 00 - 04:12 PM well - Kendall, the other thing is that the original meaning of "cock horse" - an animal with spirit and fight, like a cock - meaning ROOSTER [gad, people around here have filthy minds.] according to some the euphimism,[for it WAS one, though not now,] came into use because of stick horses, rather then stick horses becoming known due to their resemblence... |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: kendall Date: 29 Mar 00 - 06:45 PM OK Mario, you just made a sensible point. I leave the field..A wise person once said "He who can say, "I was mistaken," can also say, "I know more than I did before."Young whippersnappers, gotta watch 'em every minute, grumble grumble.. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: kendall Date: 29 Mar 00 - 06:46 PM And, Joe, I still spell better than most of you LOL |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 29 Mar 00 - 07:17 PM The previous thread had "white horse" in the thread title, as I recall. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Megan L Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:16 PM Cock or cockrell the toy in the rhyme gets its name from the comb on top of a cockrells head which is slender when viewed from the front but quite impressive to a hen (so I am told) when viewed side on. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Bert Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:22 PM Gawd! the lengths people will go to, to avoid the very thought that a cock might just be a 'cock'. If you come across a usage in England that might be interpreted as bawdy or might have sexual connotations, you can pretty much guarantee that it was intentional. That's why there are so many pubs named 'The Cock Inn' or 'The Bush' or 'The Dun Cow' |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: MMario Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:36 PM bert - according to a class I took during college, "cock" for penis is a relativly new usage in English. ONLY about 3 or 4 hundred years. "prick" is much older. And yes, many people will do anything to avoid direct or even indirect sexual connotations. In English, it can be difficult, as among all the languages on earth it has the highest amount of double meanings and sexual connotations. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:37 PM Have y'all noticed that I have stayed completely out of this? Do you realize how much self-control this has taken? Proves that I am not the ONLY ONE around here!!! I want a reward!!! WHAT DO YOU MEAN, NO REWARD??????? Aw, you guys can just suck my cork. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Bert Date: 30 Mar 00 - 12:41 PM cork? Spaw! That's about the size of it;-) |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 00 - 01:26 PM Well there's corks and there's corks Bert and I think that they all have their uses. I mean there's MY CORK and then there's YOUR CORK and then there's kendall's cork. Unfortunately, none of this goes far toward determining what a Cork Horse would be and how it would differ from a Cock Horse. Kendall, do people in Maine ever take their clothes off? Just wonderin'........ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 30 Mar 00 - 02:44 PM At least two modern songs have allusions to this rhyme:
"Scarlet Begonias", by Robert Hunter and Jerry Garcia, has the following:
She had rings on her fingers and bells on her shoes, "The Flycatcher", by Roy Harper, has this verse:
As I walked over North Botley copse T.
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: dick greenhaus Date: 30 Mar 00 - 02:44 PM could it be because the stick portion of a stick horse is cocked when in use? |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Pontiac Joe Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:00 PM Boy, what a great thread! I could listen to this for weeks. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Bert Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:03 PM Yes Dick, and so is a 'cock' |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:10 PM I guess that throws the whole thing in a cocked hat, which is the most disgusting thing I can think of! Is that one of those fedoras that guys walk out of the porn theatres with, hanging on their laps? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Bert Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:38 PM BAWDY WARNING!!!! Remember that verse that went... Father O'Flaherty he was there Can you imagine that amusing himself by abusing himself and catching it in his hat. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: kendall Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:41 PM Spaw, of course we do..how else would we keep the population at 1 million? Why is it always 1 million? because every time a baby is born, some guy leaves town. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Penny S. Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:04 PM http://www.mudcat.org/Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=187693 There were a coiuple of differences in the title harpgirl used. And I've known the toy item as a hobby-horse - though probably erroneously. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:10 PM No Penny, I have always called them hobby horses too. But I must say, that's an interesting adjective too. Course, I've known some who have had cocks for a hobby, but I don't think that explains it either. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: MMario Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:11 PM no - hobby horse is perfectly correct. But so is "cock horse" or "Stick horse" I've also heard them called "Mummer's Mounts" "Morris Mounts" and "Stickmen's Ponies" |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Bert Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:13 PM There are two different 'Hobby Horses' One is an early bicycle without pedals. The other is a costume worn by Morris Dancers (and others) here |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:28 PM A bicycle with no pedals huh? Probably a real rocket downhill, but, uh.........British invention is it Bert? and the guy in the photo..........is the "horse" suspended or resting on ....something. I could see the cock horse thing then for sure. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Penny S. Date: 30 Mar 00 - 04:47 PM The guy is standing. The skirt of the horse is decorated with two little stuffed legs hanging down as if they were his and he was riding. The horse has only two legs. His. The Padstow 'Obby 'Oss in Cornwall is a much more frightening animal, bigger and more threatening. It is a definite fertility symbol, and used to chase girls who could be, I have read, dragged under the skirt, which was covered with tar. Tar stains were supposed to guarantee child bearing later in the year. How that fits the theme above I leave to others. I felt pretty threatened as a child by the Kentish 'ooden 'orse, a hand operated head with snapping jaws, used for collecting the beer money, but reminiscent of the crocodile in Punch and Judy. The bicycle was definitely a British development - I believe by a Scottish engineer. The pre-pedal version was ridden by running with a striding, gliding motion either side, and was used by the fashionable, in the manner of skateboards or roller-blades. Like any fad, it didn't last, possibly because the supply of flat ground wasn't great enough. But it was a necessary precursor to the pedalled bike. Scoff if you want, it was probably good exercise! Better than that hamster kit in the gym. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Bert Date: 30 Mar 00 - 05:13 PM Yep Spaw, AND it didn't have any brakes. When they first added pedals to the front wheel, they found that the gearing was too low so they made the front wheel larger. And thus the Penny-Farthing or 'ordinary' bicycle was born. Gearing on bicycles is, to this day, measured in 'inches', the equivalent size of the front wheel on an ordinary. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Jo Taylor Date: 30 Mar 00 - 06:21 PM Here are a couple of variants: Ride a cock-horse To Banbury Cross, To see what Tommy can buy; A penny white loaf, A penny white cake, And a two-penny apple-pie.
Ride a cock-horse to Banbury Cross,To buy little Johnny a galloping horse
From a website about Banbury:
The term 'a cock-horse', has been variously used to describe a proud, high-spirited horse, the additional coach horse used when going up a hill, and the name for toy, or hobby-horse.
Finally, we come to the 'fine lady' finely dressed and parading about on a white horse. W.Potts in his book "A History of Banbury", thinks that the rhyme may be echoing back to pagan times. In pre-Christian times a young girl, representing the Earth goddess would ride around the fields hoping to increase their fertility. A sacred tree would be set up in the village and the people would sing and dance around it. Once Christianity had arrived, the tree was replaced with the May-Pole, the Earth goddess with the May Queen, and the festival now took place on 1st May."
And another:
The festival theme is being picked up by the award-winning organisers of Banbury in Bloom, who plan to have horse-shaped planters and appropriate floral displays in the streets.
Banbury was the national runner-up in the large towns section of the 1999 Britain in Bloom contest, having won the South East title the year before.
Toni Magean, who's co-ordinating the floral fiesta, is hoping the horse theme will help win the first prize in 2000.
He thinks judges will appreciate the link to the town's famous "Ride a cock horse" nursery rhyme - which was the inspiration for the new event.
The Beasts Around Banbury Cross festival is due to take place on the weekend of July 1 and 2, 2000.
Members of Adderbury Morris Men and Bloxham Morris are helping to organise the event, and a number of morris creatures are expected to attend. The Outside Capering Crew is bringing four tourney-style horses.
Sandy Glover of the United Fools' Union, which also includes beasts of disguise in its membership, is hosting one of two web sites for the event.
Funding is being sought for a professional sculptor to work with schoolchildren to create a giant processional beast.
And Toni Magean has begun devising a floral hobby horse, to be shown off around north Oxfordshire.
I always understood it to mean a stallion - a cock-horse, as in "cock-sparrow" - not always used for male birds; male lobsters and salmon are also cocks...
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: kendall Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:12 PM there is also a cock hake. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: GUEST,Okiemockbird Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:46 PM Another interpretation: "a-cock-horse" is an adverb. To "ride a-cock-horse" means (in a childish context) "travel on your parents' lap". T. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Mar 00 - 08:15 PM Yeah T, I can see how that would work.....especially if your Old Man is a pedophile. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: kendall Date: 31 Mar 00 - 11:15 AM WHALE OIL BEEF HOOKED!! |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: dick greenhaus Date: 31 Mar 00 - 12:13 PM If you want a phrase to exercise your speculative abilities, try the Irish tune "Cock Up Your Beavers" |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 31 Mar 00 - 02:41 PM The two-wheel, no-pedal bicycle propelled by the "rider's" legs was also called a dandy horse. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: GUEST,Ian Date: 31 Mar 00 - 02:54 PM A cock horse is simply a stallion - why all this erudite conversation? For any unconvinced doubters, go to Tupsley on the outskirts of Hereford for a pint at "The Cock at Tupsley" where there is a splendid sign showing a Shire stallion - NOT a cockerel, rooster or COCK BIRD! |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: GUEST,David Miller Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:37 AM The woman in question was Lady Katherine Banbury, wife of Lord Jonathan Banbury. Miss Amy Banbury, sub matron of Auckland hospital, New Zealand (my grandfather's cousin) recalled after World War I her grandfather, Squire of Burford near Banbury in Oxfordshire, telling her that he distinctly recalled the white horse on which the "fine lady" used to ride. Among Lady Banbury's jewels were many very beautiful rings of which she was very fond. The bells were the tiny bells often used in those days to trim the edges of a lady's velvet saddle cloth. Miss Amy Banbury had a copy of the music written for the rhyme by a well known musician of the day, along with fine oak furniture from Banbury Castle. These matters were reported in the New Zealand Herald some years after the end of World War I (undated) - I have a copy of the article. David Miller Korokoro Lower Hutt New Zealand |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Viracocha Date: 28 Jul 07 - 01:35 PM TO David Miller: As another possible origin, I've heard a few people state it was "to see FINNES lady" (not 'a fine' lady), and checking on google gave me a page saying: "Who she [the 'fine lady'] really was is a matter of controversy. Some say she was Queen Elizabeth I herself, others she was Lady Godiva. Another probable theory claims that she belonged to the Finnes (pronounced as 'fains') family, the lords of the nearby Broughton Castle." Interestingly, another page on the same site gave: "One of the possible interpretations of the poem identifies the 'fine lady' as Queen Elizabeth I, who travelled all the way to Banbury to see the newly erected enormous stone cross. "While the rings obviously refer to the jewelry a queen would wear, the bells probably refer to the fashion of wearing pointed shoes with bells attached favoured by the nobility of the time. "As Banbury was situated at the top of a steep hill, a white cock horse (a large stallion) was provided by the town's council to help carriages up the steep slope. When the queen's carriage was going up the hill, one of the wheels broke. So the Queen mounted the horse and made the rest of the journey on horseback. The people of Banbury had decorated the horse with ribbons and bells and provided minstrels to accompany her, hence the 'music wherever she goes'." |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Rumncoke Date: 28 Jul 07 - 03:41 PM And I always thought that an equine cock horse was simply one which lifted its front feet high when trotting, so bringing its leg horisontal, a Human cock horse was just the thigh for a baby to be jounced on - and that in days past the request to 'cock up' meant to put your foot up against a wall or on a suport of some kind so that your mate could climb up on your thigh in order, for instance, to reach the apples or other fruit dangling temptingly overhead. My mother's mother had a large collection of old books, from visiting auction houses to furnish her large old house between the wars, and most of them predated the motor car, so the hours spent reading there did rather antiquate my vocabulary. I have also heard the term cock horse for the extra horse used to help get vehicles up hills, but as Hackneys are high trotting and also used to pull carriages I though that was the connection. My Grandad used the term 'cock(ed) up' for 'prick(ed) up' - as in what a dog does with its ears. I suspect that it is simply an alteration in the naughtiness of words. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Jul 07 - 04:18 PM COCK-HORSE Earliest quotations in print, from Oxford English Dictionary. Definition and comments: "It is not clear whether 'cock-horse' was originally the name of a plaything, as it appears to have been by 1577, or whether the phrase 'on (a)cock-horse merely meant in a position (as e. g. on the knee) which was likened to that of being on horseback." "A. sb. 1. orig. Apparently a nursery term, applied to anything a child rides astride on, as a stick with a horse's head, a hobby-horse, any one's leg or knee." 1540-1 Elyot, "Image Gov." The dotying pleasure to see my littell soonne ride on a cokhorse. 1577 Harrison "England" iii... We oft exchange our finest cloth, corne, tin and woolies for halfe penis* cockhorses for children." *half-penny 1621 Burton "Anat. Mel." Sometimes he would ride a cockhorse with his children. ...2. mounted (as on a horse), astride. 1564-78 Bulleyn "Dial. agst. Pest." (1888) The Drake with all the water foules did stoupe lowe and receive their carriage, and when they were all a cockehorse together they wente into the water. 1584 R. Scot "Discov. Witcher...." They passe...so far in so little a space on cock-horse (on broomsticks). In "The Oxford Nursery Rhyme Book," Iona and Peter Opie, section on Knee Rides, p. 13: (No. CCV in Halliwell, 1846) Ride a cock-horse to Banbury Cross, To buy little Johnny a galloping horse; It trots behind and it ambles before, And Johnny shall ride till he can ride no more p. 40: A version given previously: Ride ..., To see a fine lady upon a white horse; Rings on her fingers ... S. Baring-Gould, 1895, "A Book of Nursery Songs and Rhymes," Nursery Jingle XXXIII: Ride a cock horse To Banbury Cross, To see an old woman Upon a grey horse, With rings on her fingers and bells on her toes, And she shall make music wherever she goes. Jingle XXXIV: (CCIV in Halliwell, 1846) Ride a cock horse To Banbury Cross, To see what Tommy can buy. A white penny loaf, A white penny cake, And a twopenny apple pie. In a 1901 Mother Goose: To see an old lady upon a white horse ... Also in Halliwell, 1853, "Nursery Rhymes and Nursery Tales of England." To see a Fyne lady ride on a white horse ... The first appearance was in Gammer Garton's Garland, 1784. I haven't checked the original, but it seems to be: Ride a cock-horse to Banbury Cross, To see a fine lady upon a white horse; Rings on her fingers and bells on her toes, And she shall have music wherever she goes. (not in 1810 Garland) |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Gurney Date: 28 Jul 07 - 09:10 PM When I learned it, in Nuneaton, ten miles from Banbury, it was hoss, not horse. Only the poshest of Englishmen would rhyme 'horse' with 'cross.' So if you pronounce it that way, how can it be a 'Folk' rhyme? Heh heh. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Darowyn Date: 29 Jul 07 - 03:52 AM Viracocha, I bought a motorbike from Banbury earlier this year, and I promise you , the nearest steep hill is the Cotswolds, over five miles away from the market square. While we were there, we has lunch in the Fine Lady restaurant, attached to the Banbury Cross pub. The Bike, by wonderful coincidence, has the reg letters LDY. - and is called Lady, of course. I do recall a radio broadcast which insists that the rhyme should refer to Coventry Cross, and is about Lady Godiva- which is the presumed excuse for the pictures of naked fine ladies on view in Banbury, Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 29 Jul 07 - 12:04 PM All the stories are interesting, but are sheer speculation. |
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Subject: RE: Info req: ride a cock horse From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 29 Jul 07 - 02:48 PM ODNR refers to most of them, but should not be taken as necessarily endorsing any. Note that, of the 'Fiennes' lady story, they mention that 'the 19th Baron Saye and Sele' [Fiennes] '... suspected that his father, a noted wit (author of an autobiography Hear Saye) himself invented the Fiennes version.' The Opies suspected that the 'Coventry Cross' version was comparatively recent, and also point out that in Gammer Gurton's Garland (1784) and most other early examples, the lady is 'an old woman'. Many of the quotes from (unidentified) websites in this discussion are (unacknowledged) quotations from ODNR, though in some cases altered to exaggerate their significance. The Opies don't refer, of course, to the inevitable 'pagan origins' stories, which are merely romantic fantasy. Joe stated earlier (7 years ago; this is an old thread recently revived) that the Opies 'guess the song comes from the 15th century'; they don't actually say that. What they do say is 'Again, though it would seem unlikely that the rhyme originated very long after the cross was destroyed, there were, in fact, other, inferior crosses at Banbury, and the memory of the big cross always lingered.' Bear in mind that 'the turn of the 16th century' means the end of that century, not the beginning: the High Cross at Banbury was demolished in 1600, as has already been mentioned. David Miller's story is new to me, though. Whether or not it can be considered a possibility as it stands would depend on whether or not Amy Banbury's grandfather was old enough to have been alive in the second half of the 18th century, when we know that the rhyme was current. There are other problems, of course. It seems that none of the 18th century earls of Banbury was called Jonathan. The title apparently lapsed in 1813; the hereditary peerage Baron Banbury of Southam being a later creation (1924) and not related to the original, being named for the surname Banbury, not the place. Banbury Castle, also mentioned, was demolished in the aftermath of the Civil War. On the whole I'd think that particular 'explanation' to be just one of those interesting pieces of folklore that arise in families and which turn out, if looked into a bit, to have very little foundation in fact. For more on the rather vexed history of the earldom of Banbury, see (for example): The House of Knollys Celebrated Claimants from Perkin Warbeck to Arthur Orton |
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