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Help: Nine String Guitars
Related threads:
A bizarre 9 string guitar type thing (39)
9 String Gibson Guitar (16)
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Subject: Nine String Guitars From: Brendy Date: 01 Apr 00 - 03:48 PM While the others are in the back alley fighting, I was wondering if there are any people here who own such beasts. What stuff do you use it for, tunings etc. I have an old Morris myself with a Fishman under the bridge. The immediate beauty about such a guitar lies in the fact that you have all the requirements of a 12 string with added Bass. It does open up a lot of possibilities. Tuning all the strings separately, for instance, adds an extra 3 strings to your otherwise '6' string guitars. Anybody got one? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 01 Apr 00 - 04:34 PM To enhance the treble sound, Art Thieme converted one of his six-strings to a nine-string, the additional strings paired with the first three strings, making an instrument halfway between a six and a twelve. I don't remember if he said he tuned the third pair an octave apart or not. --seed |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Mooh Date: 01 Apr 00 - 04:56 PM The guy who wrote for the (I think) now defunct band named MODABO, had a nine string which was a converted six string of which make I do not remember. If I recollect, it was double courses for the first three and single for the bottom three. The appeal for me might be the extra power for leads on the higher three strings, but my 12 string does that just fine. Cool idea though. I wonder what happened to him...Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: BanjoRay Date: 01 Apr 00 - 07:35 PM Big Joe Williams used to play a nine string guitar, but I can't remember which strings were paired - I think the top 3? Cheers Ray |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Apr 00 - 07:48 PM The other type of nine string would be a sort of theorbo, with three long extra open bass strings. Theorbo's normally had lute bodies, but I used to have one years ago at university which somebody had botched up, with a guitar body - but I never managed to get it strung up and all, and I lost it in the move when I left. I've never come across anything like it, but I reckon it could be fun - a bit like having a footdella on the side of your guitar....
Here's a picture of a splendid looking lute theorbo - mine wasn't anything like this, fortunately. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Bugsy Date: 01 Apr 00 - 08:11 PM I remember seeing Rick Norcross at a folk club in the UK when I was about 16. He had an 18 string Guitar! (said It was a downpayment on a harpsichord) I've never seen one before or since. Sounded Great! CHeers Bugsy |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Art Thieme Date: 01 Apr 00 - 08:52 PM I do believe it was the bluesman Blind Blake who played a 9-string. I can personally vouch for Big Joe Williams (the country blues singer---not the Basie Orchestra vocalist) having played a 9-string. When I was young in Chicago Big Joe was making some records for Bob Koester's Delmark Records label. I used to catch every gig of his I could. He always played a 9-string guitar. His was (at that time) a 6-string guitar to which he had added a 3-tuner geared metal strip to the top (the end) of the tuner wood stock. That really didn't fit there. As a result, one of his tuners was outside the width of the tuner stock. (Hope that makes some sense to ya. I can visualize it but am not sure if my words paint the right picture for you.) Still, the string running from that tuner was held in it's proper place by the groove in the bone nut which was a bit deeper that normal in order to accomplish that.
Now, when I decided to change my 6-string D-76 Martin Bicentennial guitar into a 9-string, it was because my hands had been going numb for several years. I was told I had carpal tunnel syndrome. I was looking for any way I could to make picking my instruments easier. I thought that getting more sound when strumming might help me since picking intricate stuff was fast becoming a thing of the past for me. What I didn't count on was that my left hand technique suffered because the added strings made chording more difficult. Still, since I'd changed my Martin, I figured I would stick with the 9-strings. That I did until I could barely play the big guitar. Then I bought a 000-18 and went back to 6 strings and actually tuned down a full note and used a capo to lower the action which was actually already very low. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Rick Fielding Date: 01 Apr 00 - 10:44 PM Hi. I played a 9 string for about 2 years and had great fun with it. Started out with a Takamine acoustic (would never take a chance on a Martin in case I screwed it up...so yer a brave man, Art) I removed all the tuners, plugged the holes and re-drilled four per side. Octaved the 4th and 3rd, and unisoned the 1st and 2nd. I loved the sound. Traded it for a Weymann mandolin about 10 years ago but still have a couple of old promo pics with me playing it. Art, I never heard a recording of Blind Blake playing a 9 string...but Lonnie Johnson owned a Mexican 12 string that had 9 strings on it. He used it it some of his duets with Eddie Lang. Spider John Koerner played a seven string National flat top on all the Koerner Ray and Glover recordings. One other "slightly off" approach was Jesse Fuller's who played an 11 string guitar. (took off one of the 1st pair) Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Brendy Date: 01 Apr 00 - 10:55 PM Yo there folks. I just got back in, and I couldn't get into this one just now, but thanks to Art, Rick, et al for the input. Mine has 6 machine heads on one side, 3 on the other, and an absolute dream of a guitar. Talk to yiz tomorrow. B. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: JedMarum Date: 02 Apr 00 - 12:03 PM ... interesting thread. I am very curious about these kinds of guitar 'experiments' - but I've never tried the 9 string. I have recently taken my sons Martin Back Packer and restrung it in a Nashville tuning; I love it! I am also using a banjo-style open D (major) tuning with it. What a treat. The Back Packer is definately short on ability to produce quality sound for the bottom three/four strings ... so using the Nashville tuning allows me to get the most out of the guitar's limited ability. It also adds to the mandolin-like qualities of the instrument. If you imagine using banjo chords with added 'drones' at the 1 and 6 string (although I sometimes fret these too, depending upon the chord) and if you imagine flat picked chord strumming with the lower 4 strings an octave higher than normal, you begin to get the picture. I have had a lot of fun playing with this ... though I ain't too sure if I'll do anything more than play with it. It really could fit in the space that mandolins fit - it is a bit higher in range than the Irish bouzouki, but may work there too. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Apr 00 - 12:41 PM "A Nashville tuning" - please elucidate, kind sir. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Rick Fielding Date: 02 Apr 00 - 02:23 PM May I elucidate Master McGrath? Remove the three bass strings and replace 'em with strings one octave above the originals. Fo example: Sixth string = .030 (tuned to E), fifth string = .020 (tuned to A), fourth string = .013 (tuned to D) Strum away. Sounds great. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Ebbie Date: 02 Apr 00 - 06:49 PM I never had a nine-string guitar but I've had an eleven-string guitar several times. Each time it happened when I was changing strings. (Sorry!) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: JedMarum Date: 02 Apr 00 - 10:54 PM chuckle Ebbie Risk on the Nashville tuning, I carried it to the 3rd string too, and placed an octave G. Sounds great - I've actually been tuning down to an open D, so the strings aren't quite as tight as they might be ... but when I tune it up to normal tuning, it plays pretty well. I've used light gauge strings, since I've tuned a few higher then they ordinarily tuned. I could probably buy individual guaged strings, to ... but this seems to be working. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Rick Fielding Date: 03 Apr 00 - 12:47 AM Yeah, I've done that too Jed (the octaved 3rd). An .009 will usually tune up without breaking. Sounds nice. Sorry about your lousy plane experience. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: ddw Date: 03 Apr 00 - 06:25 PM I lent a guy in Hamilton, Ont. $50 one time and he gave me his Epiphone 12-string as collateral. I played it a few times, didn't like the muddied-up bass, so I took the three octave string off and played it as a 9-string. Not bad. He finally got the money together and wanted it back, so I let him have it. Hadn't seen another 9-string until about 4 or 5 weeks ago when one of the guys in our folk society showed up with one. My recollection is — I didn't get a chance to check it out too closely that night — was that it was a Yamaha and it was a 9-string out of the factory. Next time I see him with it I want to take a closer look and, if he'll let me, give it a try. I liked the sound. david |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Grab Date: 04 Apr 00 - 10:43 AM There's a pawnshop in Cambridge which has a classical with an immense number of strings on it. I believe it's a 12-string (or could be 10), but instead of the string being close together, they're equidistant apart with enough distance so you can only get one string per finger. God knows how you play it - it's got a fretboard the size of the M6! I'd guess you'd use the extra strings as drones, or to give you extra opportunity for strange chords. I'd love to buy it, but they want a grand or so for it, so _way_ out of my range! As a result, it's been sat in there ages, cos no-one can afford that for a curiosity piece. If anyone rich fancies swinging by Cambridge to get this, it's in the pawnshop opposite the Grafton Centre. Grab. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Brendy Date: 04 Apr 00 - 12:09 PM Yo there folks, back from the mountings! I started this thread with the firm belief that factory made 9 strings were a bit of a rarity, and, indeed my belief seems to have been confirmed. Yeah, mine's a Morris BW620, and it is, I have been told, 35-40 years old. I haven't been able to find anything about Morris guitars on the web, as it was my intention to come back to this thread with some info as to the guitar's origins. Alas, information seems to be just as rare as the instruments themselves. It was interesting; however, the manner in which I got my hands on it in the first place. Before I arrived in Norway, I was playing bass with a blues band in Ireland. My other guitars were in the States, and what with the 'moving' process, and the need to travel as 'light' as I could, it was too much to take on to move my equipment here, before I got settled in. But I needed at least one guitar. He brought me into the back of the shop and said that 'This' was the only one he could give me, taking into account 'wear and tear' of the Fender etc. I saw it immediately for the rarity that it was; yer man's sensitivities only stretched as far as the cash register. So I started to complain a little. There were 9 machine-heads, fair enough. It was made that way, also fair enough. But it had 4 strings on it and looked dilapidated, and not a little sorry for itself. Perhaps it's my upbringing that on occasion stops me from showing what's in my mind through my eyes or my body movements, and I still grumbled a little at the strings while gently laying the guitar into it's velvet nest. We shook hands and I went out the door, into the car, found myself the nearest deserted car park and lit one up! Indeed I did. It's sitting across the room from me now, along with the rest of it's brothers and sisters, and should I owe the world millions of pounds, I would never get rid of this guitar. I have had to do such things in the past (tax this, insurance that), but never again. I normally use, and please don't cringe, 2 x .15, 2 x .17, 2 x .27 (very rarely a .009), 1 x .39, 1 x .47, 1 x .56. I have, of late, started to use it a bit more (hence my interest in finding out your knowledge about it), and I have found it an amazing instrument when used with a bottle-neck, in the standard 'G' open or in DAF#DAD. I have tuned ALL the doubled strings to a six-string, using the treble strings of a 12 string set, and then the tenor B G D. But, as you can guess, the old manicurist would have to have a good go at my paws to get everything set up - if you know what I mean. The problem there is that my nails on my right hand never get the chance to grow that long from the constant battering when accompanying Trad. It's an interesting concept though, and it works if you have the patience to take a break from your other activities long enough to let your nails grow. Anybody seen Morris on the web? Catch you later. B. Just saw your post grab. It's probably worth more than that, and if you were able to get your hands on it, not only would you have a beautiful instrument, but an investment also. Do yiz remember the 'Harp guitar' Robbie Robertson used in the Last Waltz? A Gibson I think. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Whistle Stop Date: 04 Apr 00 - 04:05 PM Yes, Robbie was playing a Gibson. Gibson made harp guitars in the early part of this century, as did some other makers. I've played them -- it's kind of like trying to hold a piano in your lap, and a lot of them don't sound that great, due in part to their heavy construction. But sometimes you can do some pretty neat things with them. The "harp" part is generally for one-note bass strings (with no frets under them to raise the pitch), basically to add fullness to the low end. As for classical guitars (mentioned by Grab), there have been a number of experiments with these, too. Probably the most famous proponent was the late Narciso Yepes, a true classical guitar master who played a ten-string. For the most part, the "extra" strings were intended to be played as unfretted bass strings, like on the Gibson harp guitar. But there were frets under them (very wide neck), and occasionally I think they were fretted. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Art Thieme Date: 04 Apr 00 - 04:49 PM Rick, Your correct. It WAS Lonnie Johnson I was thinking about. Brendy, BIG JOE WILLIAMS has several videos out there with his 9-string. As far as I know, he ONLY played the 9-string. He was an amazing guy. Most vollatile and possibly violent person I ever met. In '64 I was doing some research work for Bob Koester at the Library Of Congress Archive of Folk Song (as it was called back then)---Joe Hickerson's first year there. Bob sent me a postcard saying there was no money to pay me anything for my work but he'd be glad to pay me in LPs from his music shop--The Jazz Record Mart--still in Chicago. He ended the note with a line saying that Big Joe had been drunk & got in a fight (knife) with bluesman (harp) John Wrencher and almost killed him and had to split for environs not known. When I saw John Wrencher a few years later with Ted Bogan and Carl Martin --a trio-- I saw that J.W. had only one arm. Made me wonder how that came about... ...Ain't nostalgia great ??? Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Caitrin Date: 04 Apr 00 - 05:02 PM Yes, Art, but it just ain't what it used to be. : ) I'd never heard of, let alone seen, a nine-string guitar before. Most interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Rick Fielding Date: 04 Apr 00 - 11:18 PM Brendy, I know what you mean about not liking light guage strings. The rest of me may be falling apart but my hands are like Shwartzenegger's. Morris is a hard company to get info on. I've tried this year. I own a beautiful rosewood (non-Martin) D-45 style guitar. Well made, sounds great, approximately (from my detective work) 35 years old. They came from an era when the Japanese were knocking the shit out of Martin and several companies made "presentation guitars". They usually sold for about 2/3rds the price of a D-28 and have held up well. The problem is that 25 brand names may have been made in only 4 or 5 factories. I've been trying to locate a company called "Shero", with the same lack of results. Sometimes different headstock logos would be used on the same guitar sent to different countries. Remember that half the world knew "Goya" and the other half knew "Levin". Art, Loved your Big Joe story. Mike Bloomfield wrote about entering Joe's world for a while, and "chilling" would describe it nicely. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Duane D. Date: 05 Apr 00 - 12:27 AM Back in the early 1970's, a fellow member of a folk music organization in New Jersey that was then known as Project 21, had a six string Morris. It was a visual copy of a Martin D-28, as is my Toredo six string. They could be clones. They're both Japanese made and from the same era. They sound reasonable for rosewood veneer guitars and mine cost $112 new back in 1973, when it was possible to buy a new Martin D-28 for about $450. I've seen several other names on similar guitars of that era including: Penco, Dorrado, and Alvarez-Yarie. Someone told me that most or all of these guitars were made by the same manufacturer and the different jobbers each put they're own name on their's. I also heard that Morris had changed their name to C F Morris, and even had gold lettering in the same style as Martin, just prior to their disappearance. Duane |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: GUEST,murray@mpce.mq.edu.au Date: 05 Apr 00 - 07:56 AM Specifically the Vestapol Video "Legends of Country Blues Guitar, Vol2 has Big Joe playing "Sloppy Drunk Blues", "Highway 49", and "Providence Help the Poor People" with his 9-stringer which looks like it is held together with scotch tape! That story is interesting, Art. I only know him through his recordings and his appearance on this particular video and I would have never placed him as a violent (or volatile) person! Murray |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Terry Allan Hall Date: 05 Apr 00 - 09:30 AM Alvarez/Yairi used to make a 9-string....saw an ad once w/ Michael Martin Murphey playing/posing w/ one. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Richard Bridge Date: 05 Apr 00 - 05:56 PM 1. I am sure that Ivor Mairantz in London used to sell Morris. 2. John Mayall the UK electric bluesman used to use a 9 on stage - electric. 3. We have a relatively frequent visotr to our club www.hazlittfolk.co.uk (site may not be up yet, but it is paid for) called Nino who plays sort of jazzish stuff on a 9 (acoustic)and it is clearly factory made, but I can't remember the name of it. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Brendy Date: 06 Apr 00 - 08:46 PM Interesting bit of info there, Duane. Mine is Japanese made, and has a rosewood veneer. I don't have a scanned picture of it, but maybe I can organise that and post it on the home page or something. (still under construction!!!). And John Mayall too! Priviliged company, what? Eko made a range of guitars in the late '70's; trying to spice up their image, I presume. 1 6 string jumbo, 16 string cutaway. 12 strings the same, and two Acoustic basses, again, one model was a cutaway. Eko made 6 of each as a 'prototype' and sent them off to a few music fairs. I saw them in Earls Court in 1979 at one, and immediately fell in love with the cutaway bass. The 'commercial' version went to the shops with an oval sound hole. Mine had the original round one. I know, more boring, but still a one off. I saw a video of Madness's 'Return of the Los Palmas Seven" some years later and noticed their bass player running around with another one of the originals. This one had a candelabra stuck to the back of it. Thanks to all for interest; know anything about acoustic basses? B. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Art Thieme Date: 06 Apr 00 - 09:07 PM I've told this in another thread before, but far be it from me... Big Joe was playing at the Univ. of Chicago Folk Festival in the early 60s. He sat down to play and it soon became pretty obvious that the crotch of his pants was worn away. Someone came out on stage and whispered a few words to Mr. Williams. Joe want back stage for about 10 minutes --- and then he came back on. He sat down again and the spotlight must've hit 25 safety pins holding the material together. Sparkles like a revolving mirror ball at a 50s sock hop shot all over Mandel Hall for the rest of his set. It was quite amazing---and wonderful too. Rick, chilling is a good way to describe some of Mike Bloomfield's life too. But early in his life he was a pretty down to earth guy. There are other tales to tell about "Makkel"---as we used to call him---but that'd be for another thread. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Brendy Date: 06 Apr 00 - 10:23 PM Nice one Art. B. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: GUEST,MudWeasel Date: 03 Oct 01 - 07:43 PM Call me the thread resurrector!!! I also have a Morris 9-String, though I string it with a very slim octave string on the doubled G-String. Mine's an RW-650 made in 1959 (which would make her 42 years old to my own callow 27). I bought it used for less than $400, and I honestly believe her to be the greatest guitar in the world. She's not designed for playing leads easily (Though I'm starting to get the knack) but she has the best and brightest rhythm sound of any guitar I've ever heard. Truly a delight to play. Narrow-ish neck, considering the number of strings, and a low, easy string action and low frets. Some beautiful mother-of-pearl inlay around the edge of the body. The fellow at the store where I bought it (Gryphon Stringed Intruments, in Palo Alto) said that 9-strings enjoyed a brief period of being in fashion with Rockabilly guitarists in the late '50s. But I've never seen another factory made 9-string, and nobody at any sessions I've been to has either, and that includes some fairly fanatical collectors (some of whom offered me sizable sums for her). Any more info floating around out there? Anyone else have a factory-made 9-string? -Mudweasel PS: Unlike Brendy the masochist with the .015 strings, I keep mine strung with Martin .115's and they stay in tune forever and a day... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Walking Eagle Date: 04 Oct 01 - 10:06 AM I think Big Joe played his with the top three as doubles. Interesting string. I can't offer any more help, but perhaps a search of of some of the guitar makers web sites could offer more help, such as Martin, Seagull, Gallagher, and Taylor. Our classical quitar professors here at the university where I work are starting to play five strings. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Oct 01 - 12:59 PM I have a 12 with the Bottom E A and D treble strings removed. For certian songs it produces quite a nice effect. I got the idea from this man http://www.doncon.com/. He makes very good use of the 9 string 12 string and partial capos for a uniquue guitar sound. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: John MacKenzie Date: 04 Oct 01 - 06:07 PM Somebody said that Spider John Koerner played a seven string, but I could have sworn he played a 9 when I saw him do a floor spot in Les Cousins many years ago. Jock |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: ddw Date: 04 Oct 01 - 09:08 PM Jock, when I saw him he was definitely playing a seven-string — it was the G string that was doubled and that's where he played most of his melody and breaks... david |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: JohnInKansas Date: 05 Oct 01 - 02:58 AM Not exactly thread creep - thread ooze maybe? People interested in the odd instrument category of n-string guitars might also be interested in the short exchanges in: Subject: Swiss Army Knives and musicians and Subject: Help: 7-string Dobro? Not sure I got the first clicky so it will go to the right post, but search "Dobro" in the thread if it doesn't. FWW: I know that the mandolin uses double-course strings for the theoretical reason that it should give better volume. My own observation is that with single strings that small and that tight, you would not have a musical instrument - you would have a meat slicer. (Sorta the fakir's bed-o-nails thing?) Maybe the same sort of thing works for doubling the skinny strings on the guitar. It makes bends a b...ch, but "slides" are certainly a lot easier on the finnerbones. John |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: John MacKenzie Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:05 AM That's the same sort of logic that says a banjo is better for slicing hard boiled eggs than a guitar, as the eggs don't disappear down the hole in the middle. Ducking anbd running ;- >> Jock
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 03 - 07:11 PM I had seen mention of Art Theime as "King of the Nine-String Guitar," and I passed it by, thinking it just another bit of nonsense from that vast horde of Art Thieme groupies. Then I saw this message (click) from Art today, and it all made sense - especially when that message is combined with this thread. Good idea, I think. I wonder if stores could actually sell nine-string guitars. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Songster Bob Date: 24 Jun 03 - 12:39 PM Actually, the doubled strings of the mandolin family are to assist in tremolo playing. When the pick moves across the first string in the pair, it starts it ringing. When it crosses the second, it rings. Then, when the pick comes back -- remember, the technique is to play very fast up-down-up-down strokes, attempting to produce a continuous tone -- it momentarily interrupts the ringing string as it picks it, BUT THE OTHER STRING IS STILL RINGING. That means that at least one string is still producing the note while the other one is being struck by the pick. By the time the pick, now travelling upward, reaches that (still-sounding) first string, the second string has been picked again and is now sounding. A more-continuous sound is the result. Think "riiiiiiiiiing" instead of "r-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-n-g." Try the technique on the single strings of a guitar and you'll see what I mean. The added volume was just a by-product. Bob |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Bob Bolton Date: 24 Jun 03 - 11:51 PM G'day Joe, I seem to remember responding to some past thread on 9-stringers ... but it may have been in a PM to Art ...? Anyway, I've seen a number of 9-string guitars in old illustrations from music-themed "graphic resources" books. When there is any text, it seems that the consensus is that they were factory made, in the early part of the 20th century, as Hawaiian guitars. (Maybe we should ask Mark Cohen ... even if only as a distraction from fretting for his missing Martin!) Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Help: Nine String Guitars From: Brendy Date: 28 Aug 07 - 09:48 AM Hi Folks. I eventually got a few pictures of my Morris 9 String up on the old wwwebsite (... woke up with a strange stammer this morning....) B. |
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