Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:42 AM

Hey, I have no objection to the "Scotsman"--as entry drug to the hard stuff (more tradiional or less lowest common denominator.) But ask Bill D (and some other posters) about it.   I'll bet a nickel it's high on his "Oh, no, not again" list. It has in fact been done a fair amount--it even seems to be a feature of some Renaissance Fairs in the US (go figger) and an argument could be made that other songs deserve more exposure.

So please don't stop with that song.

And don't forget to check out "Let's Talk Dirty In Hawaiian".    Can't explain it (though maybe it seems more witty than the "Scotsman" for some reason.)   But I love to hear (and sing) that one as many chances as I get. And it's full of nonsense syllables.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:54 AM

"Rattlesnake Mountain" seems better than "Scotsman".    Maybe it doesn't sound so manufactured--you can imagine mountain folk actually singing it exactly that way.

Then there's the personal bias I have in favor of songs I can imagine myself actually singing.   "Scotsman" does not make the cut; nor does "Rattlesnake".   "Talk Dirty" definitely does.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 12:55 AM

YMMV

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:43 AM

LH, yes, JJ indeed changed the meaning of the song, not so much by changing the lyrics, but by the way she sang it, including the na-nas. It struck a chord far beyond the lonesome-cowboy cliché.

KK's Bobby made the narrator choose between love and freedom, so he reluctantly chose the latter. JJ's narrator laments wildly; obviously she had had no choice at all.

"The apostle Paul...": I suspected you would not get that one, Ron. He was opposed to scat singers, but unable to stop them completely in the Corinthian parish. "Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit." What he really meant was: they utter mysteries beyond my control, thus endangering my authority.

Please bear with my English; it is not my mother tongue and no longer what I speak every day. Feel free to correct me.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 07:49 AM

Yeah, it's not that I don't see some value in how Janis Joplin did the song. It suits her style. I just don't like it as much as I do the original melancholy approach as done by Lightfoot and Kristofferson.

Sounds like you've got Paul all figured out, Grishka. ;-)

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 01:32 PM

LH, certainly the author has the first right of interpretation. The song was a favourite of college bedroom sing-arounds for more than a decade, and we sang it more or less as written. Nobody dared, or even would have liked, to imitate JJ.

Nevertheless, she had set the meaning: Freedom had no more been gained by letting Bobby slip away, as in KK's interpretation, but had slipped away simultaneously. Thus the song became political, a counterpart to her famous "Mercedes Benz".

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 02:47 PM

If freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose, you ain't free till you're dead.

Less formally, murderers on the lam are often said to have "nothing left to lose." I guess they're free too.

So I've never cared much for the song.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: PHJim
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 03:57 PM

Ah yes, the John Prine and Fred Koller (of Night Of The Living Fred fame) tune Let's Talk Dirty... A few years ago at the height of "The Great Ukulele Revival" everybody and his/her brother/sister was singing this one and I was getting sick of it, but it seems to have fallen out of use and, since I haven't sung it or heard anyone else sing it for a while now, maybe I'll give it a go again.

The Scotsman, written by a true Appalachian musician, was very common at bluegrass and folk festivals thirty years ago, but I haven't heard it for years. Bryan Bowers made it quite popular.

I've never heard anyone but Pat Sky do Rattlesnake Mountain.

I love scat though. I'm a John Hendricks and an Ella Fitzgerald fan and Jim Kweskin's scatting on the first Jug Band album was great.

I also like Irish lilting and what folks from the maritimes and Newfoundland call "Jiggin' the tune". "I recall Jamie Snider saying,"If we lacks a fiddle, we just jigs the tune."

Dye-dee-diddle-um
Dum-deedle-diddle-doodle
Dye-dee-diddle-um
Dum-diddle-eye

And I can still recall my dad singing a variation of "Frog Went A-Courtin'" 65 years ago. It ended with:

They paddled off across the lake, "Hey-ho," said Raleigh,
They paddled off across the lake
And got swallowed up by a big black snake
With a rolly-polly, gamin and spinich
"Hey-ho," said Anthony Raleigh.

That was the end of him and her, "Hey-ho," said Raleigh,
Well, that was the end of him and her
Now we won't have tadpoles covered in fur
With a rolly-polly, gamin and spinich
"Hey-ho," said Anthony Raleigh.

Yah, I love those nonsense syllables.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 04:41 PM

Lighter, song lyrics can never be philosophical essays. There are many concepts of freedom, and ideas what best to do with it, but there is one thing most philosophers (including Buddha and Paul) agree on: if your heart is tied to some possession that you can lose, you are potentially open to blackmail and thus not free. The lonesome ranger of KK's story is in love with BobbyMG, but when she asks him to offer her a "home", he prefers to let her slip away. That is a private decision and no big deal, just worth a decent country song.

There was a different notion of freedom that was the cause of hot emotions in the USA and western Europe around 1970: opting out of the career treadmill that promises a Mercedes Benz and other status symbols, but expects subordination and self-crippling in return. On top, owners of fancy cars and homes often build high walls aroun their property, with cameras and guards - they build their own prisons. Others buy guns and feel powerful when they are allowed to shoot burglars, while their property is actually seized by their bank.

Becoming a hobo or a terrorist would not solve the problem either, even if these had nothing to lose. Still, I pride myself of having refused a couple of opportunities to become (perhaps) rich, and I know others who did not resist and are acutely unhappy now. It's not all abstract philosophy.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:37 PM

Good grief, can't anyone figure out something this simple? Bobbie was roaming around wearing his old bandana as a bikini bottom; it's

"I pulled her poon out of my dirty old bandana".

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:51 PM

No, she wore a slip, until he let it away.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: John P
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 07:29 PM

I always thought he didn't so much choose between Bobbie and freedom, but rather just went on with his life when she decided she wanted something different. In my reading of it, he didn't realize how much he missed her until later, when he found that his freedom meant that he'd lost everything.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: John P
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 07:36 PM

As for "harpoon", I've always assumed the same as Little Hawk -- KK needed another syllable. "Harpoon" isn't all that much different than other screwed up words that permeate lyrics (especially folk!) in an effort to make the rhythm or rhyme come out right.

Either that, or that's just the way he said the word to himself, like how I always refer to my friend Joyce as "Joysarooni" in my head.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 01:07 AM

Well, "Scotsman"   is a fine gateway drug to the hard stuff (traditional folk).   But please don't stop at "Scotsman".      And it has in fact been done a lot (even at US Renaissance festivals--go figger).    By the way, you might not want to ask somebody like Bill D about it--it's likely high on his "oh, no, not again" list, as well as those of quite a few other folkies--who feel that other songs deserve a lot more exposure.

"Rattlesnake Mountain"   is much better;   you can easily imagine it being sung in the Appalachians.

And please don't forget "Talk Dirty".    I like that one a lot more (even though it's composed, it has the hand of a master (John Prine)    It seems much more witty than "Scotsman", maybe since it has lots of syllables which sound like imitation Hawaiian but in fact are mangled but suggestive English.

But I'll admit I'm far more inclined to songs I can actually imagine singing.    "Talk Dirty" is one;   the others are not.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 01:10 AM

"not get that one"

Sorry, you're wrong there. I reserve the right to have fun with absurd notions.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 01:15 AM

And I reserve the right to repeat myself.   But fortunately-- as far as I know-- you have the right to not read my posts.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 01:18 AM

"absurd notions"    Including the right to twist them any way I see fit. (But see immediately above).

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 08:35 AM

John P (19 Jul 13 - 07:29 PM): quite right. She wanted something different - a home -, not necessarily someone different. And he let her slip away, which suggests that theoretically he could have kept her, e.g. by offering to work for money to provide her a decent family home - traditionally the husband's task. If her decision had been final, the line would be "Then somewhere near Salinas suddenly she slipped away". The main point is that he is free, though not completely happy, without her.

This changes in JJ's version: her narrator, as I explained, had no choice and no longer feels free at all. (She "let him slip away" unintentionally, not in favour of more freedom.) That interpretation stuck. -

Ron, you have the perfect right to make a fool of yourself. If you did not want my explanation, others may have welcomed it. LH (19 Jul 13 - 07:49 AM) understood me alright. BTW, I am by no means the first to have "Paul all figured out" in that sense.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 08:55 AM

You're definitely not the first on that, Grishka. As I've said on some other threads, Paul seems to have been a rather odd fellow. I suspect that if I'd been there at the time, I might not have agreed with some of his views on God and humanity. He'd probably have written a sharp letter to me and my friends on the subject. ;-)

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 09:40 AM

Why am I reminded of the line about an audience that went to see "Smoky and the Bandit" and then broke up into discussion groups?
Bobbie McGee is a fine song, but it's depth is really on the surface.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 10:42 AM

"perfect fool"

So sorry you don't like to be ridiculed yourself.   Parhaps you're still bitter about our last encounter. Not surprising.

You were telling us how a Mexican-American singing the national anthem was an indication of a conspiracy by TV networks.    And several people pointed out your addiction to conspiracy theories. You took objection to this. Wonder why.

And LH's agreement with you on this one will get you a $2 cup of coffee (for $3).

He doesn't like the fact that I have ridiculed his convictions that all the world's problems are due to capitalism and that all political parties are the same.

Thank goodness there are sensible folkies like Bill D and Don Firth.   There are enough who don't qualify.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 10:45 AM

"Perhaps you're..."

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 11:29 AM

Oh, Ron...Ron...you poor, feud-addicted old crab.

I have never said that "all political parties are the same". You just like to think I have, because that satisfies your need for stereotying. I have said that they are all under the influence of people with a great deal of money...and that they therefore cannot be trusted by the general public. That is not to say they all are the same. I think the Republicans are somewhat worse and somewhat loonier than the Democrats, and I think the same about the Conservative Party of Canada vis-a-vis the Liberal Party of Canada and the NDP, etc. That's why I will never vote for the Conservative Party of Canada.

All the same? Hardly! All corrupted to a great extent by the political-financial process? Definitely.

I also don't think capitalism is responsible for ALL the world's problems. Just a great many of them.

Your problem is that your need to carry on pointless, acrimonious feuds with people is immune to any perception of nuance in anything they say. It would not suit your argument.

BillD, on the other hand, is a man with a keen sense of nuance, a man who respects the people he debates with, and is totally worth talking to at all times, because he respects the people he debates with and rises above petty feuds and personal dislikes.

You don't respect the people you debate with, that is patently obvious, and it makes it a waste of time for people to talk with you about anything. You're like the nasty, paranoid little dog that rushes out of its den to snarl and yap: annoying, useless, full of illwill and intent to destroy, impotent to do so, but definitely amusing to the onlooker.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 11:43 AM

It is totally absurd that we should be arguing about senses of humor-- of all things. Mine is just as valid as the next person's.    And so, of course, is yours.    So we should be able to live and let live on this one.   After all, neither the definition of folk music nor atheism is involved here.

Is there anything that folkies don't like to debate?

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 11:48 AM

Excellent, Dick.

I was just recently talking to a former member of the National Symphony (DC) who told me of a former conductor:   "Deep down, he's shallow."

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 01:02 PM

"Is there anything that folkies don't like to debate?"

Hmm. Good question! I'm really hard put to come up with anything...

Yup, that's a tough one. It's a poser. A conundrum. Sheesh...

Well...how about tiddlywinks? Anyone want to debate the relative merits of "the Grand Game"?

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 01:52 PM

"feud-addicted".


Physician, heal thyself.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:20 PM

The way I heal myself is by coming here and getting some good laughs...and generally getting along with other people while doing so....then playing some music and reading a good book. Suggest you do the same.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 06:03 PM

Ron, I did not write that you're a perfect fool, I just don't challenge your right to appear like one if you so choose. May each reader judge privately.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Joybell
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 10:14 PM

"Deep down he's shallow" is a line True-love has been using for decades. He came up with it in the 60s. I guess it's to be expected. A good line.
Joy

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 06:35 AM

Indeed, the lyrics are no great philosophy. The catch lines of the chorus sound like deep wisdom but are not properly worked out. The song was intended as country staple food, almost improvised on the spot. "Hey Kris, we need a song about hitchhikers and sex!" - "OK, let's call it Me and ..., uh ..." - "Why not Babby McKee, that's my secretary." - "I'll be back in an hour."

Songs can strike a chord unintentionally, or perhaps subconsciously, transcending their shallow lyrics. As I wrote before, JJ unleashed this one, so that now it is a plaintive anthem of freedom and love, not freedom vs. love. Simple "na-na"s can do the trick, when sung in a certain manner to a susceptible audience at a particular time. The era was over when in the 1980s different notions of freedom dominated the public consciousness. From time to time, and perhaps increasingly so right now, we must remind ourselves that neither the old nor the newer problems of freedom have been solved to the extent that can realistically be hoped for. (I do not think overthrowing "capitalism" is a realistic concept, but short of that, there is a lot we can and must do.) Janis Joplin has not lost her power, even if her "Mercedes Benz" is now used to advertise those cars!

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 09:38 AM

LH and Grishka:

One more observation re: "feud-addicted":


You may just possibly have noticed that in this case I attacked neither of you but rather the use of "na-na-na" and similar filler in two big hits. Unless you by some chance have aspirations to form a pro "na-na-na" lobby, you need not have responded at all.

But for some reason you felt the need. So to find the origin of any feuding in this case, you may want to look in your respective mirrors.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 11:43 AM

Ron, you wrote about "absurd notions" (20 Jul 13 - 01:10 AM), presumably meaning mine. You claimed to have understood what I wrote, but failed to convince us even of that, let alone about the absurdity of my remarks. Thus you may have made a fool of yourself, as the saying goes. I never call anybody a fool.

Íf you write something like "Grishka, if I understand your comparison correctly to mean ..., it is absurd, because ..." - we may have a good discussion (though only marginally on topic).

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:06 PM

Your comments about how JJ enlarged the meaning of the song are really interesting, Grishka. I'd never thought of it that way, so you've given me a whole new angle from which to consider her rendition. I always thought her version was too over-the-top, but looking at it from your perspective, I get what you're talking about.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 09:22 AM

It is beyond absurd, indeed it is surrealistic, to be arguing about senses of humor.

It is baffling that you cannot see this.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 09:55 AM

Maybe we just don't feel like arguing about it? ;-)

The most absurd thing I ever saw was one of my Grandmother's hats! She was a very over-dramatic woman who never did things by halves.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 01:23 PM

Ron, if you think your statement of 18 Jul 13 - 06:26 PM was marked by a sophisticated sense of humor, that is indeed a matter of taste and not the subject of any of my comments. What I wanted to hint to you is the fact that you failed to convey the impression to have understood what I was talking about. If you do not deem it worthwhile to find out what a poster really means, best do not comment at all. And if you absolutely insist on taunting a post, make sure your readers get the point exactly, if you value your own reputation.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 01:24 PM

(You know who that was.)

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 10:05 PM

I was enjoying the picture of St. Paul being chased out of Corinth or Ephesus because when singing a song he tended to lapse into "na-na-na", and the listeners got really tired of it.

It seems to me that anybody who objects to this must be a fundamentalist of the most humorless ilk.

And it really doesn't concern me how theologically accurate this picture is.    Somehow I suspect it is indeed not very.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 06:46 PM

I think there were probably far more substantial reasons found for chasing Paul of out places like Ephesus and Corinth. ;-)

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 06:47 PM

correction: out of

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 10:02 PM

But Corinth and Ephesus were known in St. Paul's time for having very high musical standards.   I think they banned synthesizers too. I'm sure I read that on the Net.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 11:03 PM

Well, I should certainly hope they did! And what about banjos? My bet is that Paul played the banjo...but poorly.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 12:29 AM

My understanding was that he actually wasn't that bad of a banjo player--he used to play "Dueling Banjos"-- but since there was only one of him, he used to "na-na-na" the other part.

That was a mistake.

Subject:
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 12:46 AM

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 03:20 PM

My College history professor in the late 70s used to frequently quote "Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose." His point was that most revolutions in world history have been initiated by folks who are so poor, with such poor prospects for improvement of their own life or their children's that they feel they have nothing left to lose, and thus, are truly free. They can do anything without worry of the worst consequence (generally the loss of their own life). Put a well maintained army against a population who is not afraid to die, and I'll bet on the population most of the time.
Now, of course, reading an interview with KK:
Interview
I see he meant something almost completely different.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 09:22 PM

Well, that's the meaning of the old logan "Workers of the world, unite, you have nothing to lose but your chains."

But in fact the truth seems a bit different when it comes to actual revolutions. They seem to kick off not when people are totally destutute, but rather when things have been fetting better in some ways, and the possibility opens up that they actually could change more. Especially when at that point there is a threat they will get worse, to set things off.

As for the song, I don't think it's about making choices or freedom as such. It's more about the way things happen in our lives, and how you can wish they might have worked out differently.

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: GUEST,Mike
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 07:02 AM

Back to Me and Bobby McGee, the story behind the song (or the title, at least) for anyone who hasn't heard it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_wtuCO82vA

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: meself
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 10:22 AM

Not much of a story, is it? (Until Janis Joplin enters - and departs).

Subject: RE: Bobbie McGee's 'harpoon'
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 11:28 AM

The ad hominem post, like the ad hominem argument, is of very little value and less merit, depriving the forum of oxygen and adding unnecessary heat without adding light.

A