BS: The importance of Principles

Subject: The importance of Principles
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 09:35 AM

After revisiting the Conservative/Liberal discussion a question popped up in my fevered little brain that I would like to throw out for discussion.

How important to you is adhering to a fixed set of principles?

It appears to me that the human race constantly teeters on the brink of utter chaos. Therefore I think that having some rules in place is a pretty good idea. And if we are going to make rules, having something on which to base these rules seems like a good place to start. This starting point is what I refer to when I use the word "principles".

That being said, I often find situations that defy my so-called "fixed principles". Sometime it's a minor thing - like disciplining my children. They break a "house rule" and I find some extenuating circumstances that gets them off the hook with a stern warning. It hasn't seemed to hmamper my boys' development; they are growing up pretty solid. And yet the principle "do the crime, do the time" has been battered once again.

When considering the gun debate, when gathering my thoughts about whether I am liberal or conservative, when processing the news of the day I find myself measuring real events against my map of the world to determine what I would do in given situations. What I find is this - as important as a principle may be, I will give it up if following it adds to human suffering that would not exist if not for that principle.

Since this is a music-based forum, apply the question to the nature of this beastie - is staying within traditional forms as important/more important/irrelevant to the need for self-expression? How far from the tradition can one stray without abandoning it entirely?

I hope I have stated my query clearly. I hope I haven't gone on too long. Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: GUEST, Threadie
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 09:59 AM

I quite like Victoria Principal...

click

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 11:15 AM

Regarding principles in general, I think that they should be kept basic, or else you run the risk of adhering to your principles in spite of your better judgment. I kind of figure anything beyond the so-called "Golden Rule" (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) is taking things too far. Life can still get compicated, because sometimes it is in a person's best interest to treat him in a way that he might object to (your comment about disciplining a child comes to mind). But I find this guiding principle to be an adequate fundamental basis for just about any decision I am called upon to make.

As for the musical question of adherence to tradition vs. free creative exploration, I'll always come down on the side of unconstrained freedom. I think tradition is overrated, frankly (this may prompt some debate), and is more often used as an argument against progress than as any sort of legitimate judgment of artistic merit. If an individual chooses to stay within a tradition because that is what works best for him, fine. But trying to impose rules on the creative explorations of others is a bad idea, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 11:55 AM

The thing about principles, ethics, morals and whatnot, is that you don't have to "adhere to a fixed set of" them - they mutate with the times. Check out Another Kind of Murder, by Larry Niven, which goes into the relationship between technology and ethics and law quite nicely. Actually all of Larry Niven does, but that short story has the most details.
What I have never understood is why so many religious folks seem to think that without (usually their) god, there is no right or wrong. I find that people can be perfectly ethical and moral and do what is right (be kind, don't sweat the small stuff, be honest, help out, remember your place in the world...) without bringing in the supernatural.
I guess I think that principles are of principal importance.

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 12:19 PM

Absolutes don't operate in this universe; the broadest, most-all embracing principle you can find, if it is couched in over-specific terms, will sooner or later cross a situation where its inherent wisdom doesn't quite fit.

The general impulse of good principles is a great aid in dealing with many cases. But there is never any rest for the good in having to use intelligence and sensitivity and perception in deciding on courses of action. In social inventions, on the other hand, one of the great follies we have suffered from is an overdose of detailed remedies which do not adhere to broader policies. Our constitutional amendments are really wonderful examples of fine broad principles, and yet we often see professional lawmakers come up with fine-grained, ad-hoc acts which are completely out of whack with the principles under which they should be operating. I am thinking of some of the knee-jerk crapola that has been offered up in recent years to legislate the internet.

If our laws were as general and as principled as we could make them, we could then leave it up to juries and judges to analyze if the priciples had been violated, and design ad-hoc remedies for policy violation, instead of endlessly coming up with ad-hoc decrees and complex tangled carloads of detailed legislation. And our laws would be flexible enough to embrace varying times and situations, much as the Bill of Rights has shown itself to be.

Rote, automatic rules may be of value in harshly disciplinarian environments for managing unthinking or criminal people; but they can fail miserably in dealing with thinking humans. Polciies instead of detailed rules are a wiser course.

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 01:24 PM

I miss the good old days when there use to be the Big Tipi where a bunch of elders sat around waiting for people to bring them issues that required intelligent, perceptive decision making with sensitivity to bring light to the matter.
These elders cared about the problems at hand, the impact it had on the group and on each individual.
Yep, I sure do miss the good old days.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 02:07 PM

Wow, thanks Bartholomew, should prove interesting.

I guess if I had to think of which principles tend to keep me goin' they might be:

The Golden rule (it's a dandy ain't it?)

Never let financial disagreements drag on and interfere with your mental health. I know folks who are still haunted years after a divorce settlement in which they feel they got "taken". We ALL get schnooked occasionally...let it pass.

Don't cheat! If you're a decent sort, you'll regret it for years. 25 years ago I over-charged someone (by about a 100 bucks) on an instrument I was selling. I regret it to this day. 'Course if your an "all's fair in bizness" sort, you won't be looking at this thread.

Share your knowledge without reservation when asked (and especially when you think someone might be too shy to ask).

Be polite, but NEVER EVER think that one fellow human knows more about God or has special knowledge that another doesn't. If they need to believe that, then respect it, but each human's quest is unique.

Political leaders have only one real job: Keeping anarchy at bay. Never respect them just BECAUSE they got the top jobs.

I feel very fortunate to have a modicum of health, a partner, and a home. Lots don't, so I'll never support an ideology that trivializes the poor, the dis-abled and demonizes "non-traditional" partnerships.

Despite some of my "goody two-shoes" moral stances, I've got a hell of a sarcastic (I think of it as ironic) sense of humour, which perhaps if I was REALLY principled, I'd keep in check more often.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: DougR
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 02:12 PM

If one can equate principals to rules, I think they are important. Knowing when to break them is the tricky thing I think.

Doug

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: JulieF
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 03:32 PM

I was not brought up in a religious houshold but in one where the principle of "doing the right thing" was upmost. You worked hard but it didn't matter if you failed as long as you tried. It is hard to put your finger on what the right thing is , but I know what it means to me. Many of my fiends have been startled when they have found out that I am an athiest but they say " you are really a christain because you have the same moral stand point as us." My parents attitude sometimes is nearly calvist scots but without the religion and without being anti alcohol. I have become a secular humanist because it dovetails with many of my principles ( or rather I read the net and the magazines and say yes I think thats right.)

On the point of changing principles I think you have a base set that you develop from all sorts of influences but you have to keep re-assessing them in the light of circumstances. Its a bit like bringing up a child you start with certain rules and have to consider them as thc hcild get older and more ( or less) responsible until you get to a point where your rules don't matter and they must live totally by their own principles.

Julie

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 05:58 PM

I follow the guidance of my heart which has a set of ethical guidelines.
To treat others and myself with patients, tolerance, compassion, forgiveness and kindness.
When I have an issue I consult my heart for the best answer.
I guess what I was saying in my earlier posting is that I wish there was a group of elders you could go to when you can not seem to find an answer to your problem. A place of Counsel where you could seek guidance and decision making with reverence in mind.
Instead, when I need help with a problem I seek guidance from wise friends.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 06:05 PM

I am right there in the Teepee with you, LilNeo.

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 07:07 PM

If a principle seems to bring you up against a conflict with another principle, dig in behind and somewhere there should be an underlying principle that lies behind them both, and that's the one you follow.

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: Mbo
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 07:15 PM

This is an especially important concept when calculating interest.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 09:53 PM

Meaning if it is against my principals, I'm not interested, right Mbo??

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: Mbo
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 10:06 PM

You got it Amos!**BG**

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: GUEST,Jimmie
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 11:22 PM

JulieF, I think I may be in love with you. Marry me in a civil ceremony.

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 11:33 PM

I just typed a long winded post that halfway through I realized that nobody would read. Let me put it simply.

I don't think in terms of principles. I think in terms of a triangle of Beliefs--Feelings--Actions with each reinforcing the other in the decision making process and I am constantly challenging the belief to see if the feeling it brings, the action it creates, and the reinforcement that comes as a result, is valid.

I cannot hold any organized beliefs because they ARE principles, firmly held and bound up in faith. Beliefs are very ephemeral things and we mostly do not understand from where they came and the older we become, the more loathe we are to challenge them. Challenging beliefs can keep your mind truly forever young (to throw in a song) and the only belief I hold firmly is that I want to "feel good." That for me means avoiding the angst that is caused by acting in a way that doesn't reflect my feelings which come from a belief. So I look at each belief. Maybe its wrong and I need to change it to avoid the angst. Having an unchanging and solid principle doesn't fit into this.

So I guess I'm just one of those hedonistic heathens.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 11:35 PM

Principle--My children cannot play in the street. Streets are for cars.
"Mom, can I play in the street?"
"No honey, you are only 2 years old."
"Mom, can we play in the street?"
"Well, maybe, you are 15, and you are old enough to watch out for cars."
"Mom, can we play in the street?"
"Well, kiddo, you are 25 years old and old enough to make your own decisions."

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 12:09 AM

Principle: my beliefs must generate action which I feel good about. I can feel the rightness or wrongness of a course of action. Wrong-feeling requires reassessment of belief.

Spaw, you sound like a highly principled guy to me! Dare I say even spiritual? Nahhh.

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 12:14 AM

LOL.......Yeah, ya' got the idea Amos and I do admit to having that principle.......I had typed the other post of at least 8 paragraphs when I camcelled the thing in the hopes that a few words could say it better. I was right, but the words are yours!!!! good job!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: GUEST,Rat Boy
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 12:43 AM

1. Try to be nice. 2. Don't hit unless you have to. 3. whomping the piano keys with a cat is neither music nor art

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 02:20 AM

Spaw, I love you, I love you, I take it back you are NOT my evil twin; you are the GOOD one! Focking brill, darlin'. You, too, SNAGgyAmos.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: The importance of Principles
From: sophocleese
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 10:49 AM

Rat Boy, true using the cat isn't music or art but I did discover that, at times, using my little brother's head could lead to a satisfying catharsis so probably would count as art. Apart from that your first two principles are sound as well.