Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?

Subject: How fast to play at Irish sessions?
From: Albatross
Date: 03 May 00 - 06:37 AM

Planxty and chieftains played tunes at a swinging, gentle pace, later bands such as bothy band and pogues speeded up the playing. Old recordings of ceilidh bands play at quite a slowish and steady pace, but Irish dancing is done quite fast as well, maybe it depends on the area of Ireland. Many modern sessions have fiddles, tin whistles and irish boxes playing at a very fast pace, but have things got faster or too fast? Of course it lasts longer if you go slower and you can put more expression, gliscendos and chords into it. What do people think?

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 May 00 - 07:01 AM

My opinion, it can be fun to play really fast once in a while but expressing the tune is far more important than speed.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: black walnut
Date: 03 May 00 - 07:05 AM

ditto. expression.

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Frankham
Date: 03 May 00 - 09:13 AM

I believe that Irish instrumental music is for the purpose of accompanying dancers for the most part. The idea of Irish instrumental music as solo virtuoso pieces for musicians is relatively new and became popular recently.

Slow aires however may have a different evolution.

To me, to divorce Irish instrumental music from the set-dances and step-dancing seems futile.

I think the same can be said for Appalachian string-band music as well.

There are examples of dance music in the "classical" music field that are not intended for actual dancing. It's a kind of genre music though and usually has little relationship to any particular folk culture.

As many of the Irish dances are fairly high energy and up-tempo, it would seem reasonable that the music would reflect this and the tempos should be faster.

The music around Dublin seems to be faster in that in reflects a kind of virtuosity that has grown up in a more sophisticated city.

There are those from the CCE and Scoil Eigse (bad spelling on my part?) who could comment on this more conclusively. The Sligo fiddlers seem to play at a pretty good clip. The Morrison, Killoran and Coleman virtuosity has set a high bench mark for this kind of playing.

Frank

Frank

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive)
Date: 03 May 00 - 09:20 AM

My general rule is-

1. Be sure that there is a good percentage of slow airs in each set.

2. The same is true for ballads

3. If people are dancing then play music dance tempo- fast - but take into consideration the skill of the dancers.

4. If no one is dancing then slower tempo should be the rule. Nothing worse than suffering through a band playing up tempo dance music when there is obviously no one interested in dancing in the place.

Take the opportunity provided to draw out the melodies and tunes.

No matter where you are playing people will be there for different reasons. Meditation is one of them. Few bands recognize this and neglect slow airs. Generally people will quiet down for them if they are properly announced. Additionally it is easy to fall into a rut in regard to ballads. Try to get away from the 10 chestnuts and find others. I am also tired of hearing only one side of the political ballad collection. IMHO the most enjoyable set of historical/political ballads contains an even number from each perspective. Here is the unionist side if you dont know the tunes of that tradition. Some are quite ancient and good ballads.

Click for the Ulster songbook

Conrad Bladey

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 00 - 09:30 AM

The best thing in a session is when you trun around, and they've started dancing up the other end of the bar. And that doesn't happen when you're all showing off and -laying too fast to impress people. (People who don't know that faster can be easier rather than harder - like when you're riding a bicycle.)

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Mooh
Date: 03 May 00 - 11:03 AM

Hmmm, Albatross, this people thinks that...

To my ear much of the modern session of traditional music, particularly Irish, is taken much too fast. I'm no expert, but when I hear the same tunes done for dancing, they are slower. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing except when speed reduces or degrades the tune, or when most of the musicians sacrifice interpretation for speed because they can't keep up. It can be magic however when everyone can realistically play at an increased tempo, but this isn't usually the case.

The great jazz guitarist, Howard Roberts, once said of players that "Without understanding in the ear, all the speed in the world is worthless." I agree, and I might add that the listener needs "understanding in the ear" also.

A popular singer in my neck-of-the-woods once refered to the session players as the "diddley-diddleys" because to his ear they all start to sound the same after a while. Too few aires and waltzes among the reels, and jigs taken at a ridiculous clip, to his ear. His opinion has merit. If only there was a bit more variety. I've often thought that a bodhran player who could set the time is most helpful in this regard.

Thoughtful thread, Albatross.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: radriano
Date: 03 May 00 - 11:24 AM

According to the unwritten rules of etiquette, the speed of a tune in a session is set by the person leading or starting the tune. Nowadays, however, this is often ignored. Many people just want to play fast, fast, fast. Of course, if there are dancers you have to play fast but I've noticed that many of the older tunes are comprised of fewer notes which makes it easier to play faster.

radriano

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 May 00 - 12:04 PM

One point that I think Frank Hamilton was touching on is that the Irish sytles themselves differ. I am no expert on these matters but as far as I understand it, I Donnegal style player is likely to play a lot faster and "straighter" than a Clare sytyle player.

Also, what do we mean by fast? Not the best example but I had this to hand. I have placed a copy of my favourite reel, the Silver Spire on my web space and have timed it at 220. Is this too fast or too slow? I know that when I am in practice (I've not played much this year) and play the tune at 200 on the banjo, it feels too slow to me.

BTW, the worst thing that happens in sessions IMO, is not a tune being played at a fast but steady tempo but the "races" which unfortunately seem to be all to common - the tune just gets faster and faster with no control.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Mooh
Date: 03 May 00 - 01:52 PM

Jon, I agree about the racing, and maybe that's my greater complaint. I'll be mindful and observant of this in future sessions. Mooh.

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: selby
Date: 03 May 00 - 02:08 PM

I don't play irish music but do play in sessions unfortunately the norm in a lot of sessions has become to speed the tune up just because they can. I have seen waltzes turned into reels and when the fact has been mentioned arguments have begun as to wether it was a waltz or a reel that it set of as. I think the most important things are keep to the speed of the person that started the tune & be sypathetic to the tune.Then it is enjoyable to listeners dancers and muscians>

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 May 00 - 02:29 PM

It is a little like driving your car. the speed seems to be set by the other traffic.

At sessions, I often try to play reels and hornpipes particully slow or at dancing pace but find that it always gets faster, the more folk join in.

To some, it is as though they have thought, this is much too slow, I can play it faster. so they do. It becomes a bit of a contest.

Is it a 'macho' thing, like eating 'hot' curries?

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 May 00 - 02:38 PM

If you play the good tunes too fast, you are then too quickly on the not-so-good ones.

It is nice to take the time to savour it. Like sex?

Interested to hear what the "ten custnuts" would be, in different parts of the world? And the variations in speed.

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive)
Date: 03 May 00 - 03:02 PM

Hey I didn't write custnuts! but sounds like they would be of interest. Chestnuts! most bands play the same 10 or so songs ....to death.... and they never seem to change the sets. best thing to do for festivals is round up your local musicians and put em on a bus and exchange them with another city. Maybe then the tunes would change but knowing the Irish probably not...

Conrad

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 May 00 - 03:36 PM

Don't know about songs but tunes, Some of the favourites that I guess get played everywhere are:

The Merry Blacksmith, St Annes Reel, Harvest Home, The Boys of Bluehill, Morrisons Jig, The Kesh Jig, Lark in the Morning, The Silver Spear (not to be confused with the Silver Spire which is also poular), Banish Misfortune, pick on a slow one for the last of this 10 - Planxty Irwin. The list may vary from day to day but I think this selection will be pretty well known by most musicians who play in Irish type sessions.

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 03 May 00 - 03:47 PM

In my experience of sessions (about 25 years) many musicians play much too fast probably in an attempt to impress or to outdo each other. This is particularly true where I live now, i.e. Belgium, where many local musicians are technically very accomplished but have not grown up "in the tradition". It seems to give great satisfaction and amusement to "lose one or two" halfway through the set. In most cases where I have played for dancers they have preferred a slightly slowed down version of the "modern standard" speed for jigs and reels set during the Bothy Band/De Danann era. Now being too old too take steroids or amphetamines or to be bothered to keep up I tend to take things at a more relaxed pace, concentrating more on expression and dynamics.

Another thing that annoys me mildly is the reluctance of many musicians to put in the odd air, planxty, makurka, waltz, etc. to vary the set as mentioned by several others above. Also a reluctance to learn many lesser-played but fine tunes. I probably as a result have a couple of hundred tunes I cannot play here except in the occasional company of another "old fogey" like myself (not talking age here I hasten to add!).

On the positive side, not all bodhran players are bad. One or two I know actually do try to slow things down!

Yours slowly,

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 May 00 - 03:55 PM

Any other "10 obvious favourites" for those of us who have no idea even what 1 "obvious favourite" would be?
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 03 May 00 - 04:21 PM

Peter T. - If you're interested in songs, we had a great thread a while back called "Favorite Songs for Singing" that had 10 times 10 old chestnuts. I'm headed to that thread now to refresh my memory...

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 May 00 - 06:03 PM

Peter, mine was just a list that sprang to mind of 10 that seem to be known everwhere I go. If you want to hear the tunes, I haven't checked but I feel certain they will all be at http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/FindTune.html

Incidentally, my repertiore is quite small as I only have a couple of hundered dance tunes and they are not all Irish. I know people with 1000+ Irish tunes alone.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt
Date: 04 May 00 - 04:26 AM

I think that a sessions speed depends on the players in the sessions. I enjoy the manicly fast to the soft and gentle pace of sessions. There are good and bad things about the speed you play the music but what I can say is that if are in the mood for a good tune all with fulfill that criteria.

Cheers, sam

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 May 00 - 10:10 AM

One thing I've not spotted earlier in this thread . . IMO many Irish tunes work well SLOWER than is usual . . it's often a good experiment ("The Butterfly" is a good example of a tune whose "feel" is quite different at different speeds). While ANY tune can be wrecked by trying to play it too fast.

Sam - yes, you enjoy the manicly fast, but you have the skill and musicianship to keep it MUSICAL even at that speed . . there's too many for whom that can't be said (which is why we avoid Irish sessions in these parts; the musical enjoyment they offer is about zero).

And remember - a session is a social thing; playing a tune you know well at a breakneck speed can be downright antisocial, especially if it's on the difficult side.

G.

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Marion
Date: 04 May 00 - 10:25 AM

Peter, here's another attempt at a "10 obvious favourites" list from me experience:

Ste. Anne's Reel
The Butterfly
Devil's Dream
Drowsy Maggie
Mason's Apron
Maple Sugar
Wind That Shakes the Barley
Soldier's Joy
Irish Washerwoman
High Road to Linton
and the token slow tune at the end of the list... Planxty Fanny Power

Marion

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 05 May 00 - 02:04 AM

It's hard to come up with one standard of speed. As others here have noted, it depends on the person who starts the tune, it depends somewhat on regional styles, where there are variations on speeds (Clare style slower than Northern styles), depends on whether you want variety of tunes at the sessions, and it depends on whether you're sounding rushed or relaxed at a particular speed. Take these all into account, nd in time you should be able to get a feel for what seems right, and comfortable. As for the top ten, I've noticed a good many Celtic musicians are in the health professions; nurses, lab technicians, some doctors, so in honor of them here is my top ten:

The Wind That Shakes the Barlow's Syndrome Sleep Mastectomy Old Hydrocephalus, You Have Killed Me The Liver Scan Hornpipe Harvest Homeostasis Walter Sammon's Granulocytosis The Barium Swallowtail Jig Flagellums of Dublin Boil the Bronchus Early Mucosa In The Glen

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: GUEST,Fionn
Date: 05 May 00 - 05:08 PM

But how fast is fast and how slow is slow? Can anyone suggest a metronome range for, say, reels at dance tempo?

Someone early in the thread seemed to suggest that you speed up for dancers. But when I looked in at the World Irish Dancing Championships in Belfast last month the tempos (tempi?) were definitely much slower than I usually hear nowadays - more Arty McGlynn than Finbar Furey.

I've seen Finbar quoted - reliably or not I don't know - as saying the reason he plays fast is because he can. Which doesn't sound a good enough reason to me. Then again I remember Stefan Grossman becoming alarmed at the growing number of youngsters who could keep pace with him.So he downtuned his guitar for a recording of Red Pepper Rag,and speeded it up the track to bring it back to true pitch. The net result of this prank was to create a generation of youngsters who could play Red Pepper Rag at double speed. Maybe we should all back off this speed thing before we melt our fiddles.

One last thought. A piper somewhere around Birmingham (Tim Mahon?) told me that for sessions around Clare and Galway, some pipers now opt for instruments in C sharp or even E flat. Fiddles and some whistles can then tune in to match, but boxes are stuffed, which is apparently the objective. Any truth in this? It sounds a bit elitist to me.

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhranplayerwhodoesn'tknowbetter
Date: 05 May 00 - 05:24 PM

There is fast music and lively music and they are not necessarily the same. If you listen to Moving Cloud, for example, there is a wonderful lift to their playing while playing almost at a crawl in places. It shouldn't be a race to tear through the tune. PLay what feels comfortable

All the best,

Rich

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: InOBU
Date: 05 May 00 - 06:29 PM

Well, this kind of question brings out the worst in me
I suppose, I should pass on the story of the poor soul who asked Paddy Keenan why he plays so fast...
Becuz oy cyan. he answered.
If you have to ask how fast to play, have another pint?
No, that does not sound like a kind answer...
I know, come to the New Age Cabaret on May 17, 8 - 10 PM and catch Sorcha Dorcha and hear how Irish music should be played!
This has been a comercial message with thanks to the Mudcat and everyone in the mud.
All the best
Play how ever the hell you like, as long as everyone else is doing the same, stay in the hum
Larry

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 May 00 - 07:03 PM

Fioon, I said it was not a good example but I provided a link to a midi of the Silver Sire in the hope it would at least provoke a too fast/ too slow discussion with something as a base point. I set the tempo at 220 for that example.

Rich, I have heard the Moving Cloud at paces well beyond my capability and it has still sounded musical - never forget Chris Sherbourne doing that to me once in a session in Bangor, N Wales - I got my revenge my mixing some polkas with reels - at least I confused him - and all in fun!

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: vindelis
Date: 05 May 00 - 07:55 PM

When it comes to speed, you always play tunes much slower for dancers, than you would in a music session. A 'fast' tune from a dancer's perspective, is rather slow from the point of view of the musician, playing it for them. I have tried it from both sides of the fence, for morris dancing. As for favourite tunes: Planxty Irwin, Fanny Power, Boulevogue, Raglan Road, Boys of Blue Hill, O'Keefe's Slide, John Ryan's Polka, Harvest Home,Dorset Four-Hand Reel. (OK I know the last one isn't Irish but I like it)

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Petr
Date: 05 May 00 - 10:11 PM

Jon - I think your silver spire midi is just right maybe a touch on the slow side.

I disagree that all music is slower for dancers than in sessions. I have played for many dancers and find that it varies, depending on the dance. The last ceili I played at we played hornpipes for a set dance our guitarist thought it was way too fast for hornpipes. The caller said it was a bit slow.

YOu can get immediate feedback by watching the dancers and adjust the speed accordingly - usually they let you know (although in our set dance sessions when the dancers insisted on going through a protracted set without stopping (while were dying of thirst and guinness sitting there in front of us) Wed play foxhunters at breakneck speed until they bounced off the tables.

I have recordings of Tulla Ceili band among others and was amazed at how fast they played some tunes (eg Lad O'Beirnes). Obviously for dancing you cant put in too many ornaments (it usually too fast and not necessary) dancers tend to like straight ahead tunes anyway.

For scottish country dances which I played in a band for several years (they tend to play around 120 for jigs and reels) For English rapper (sword dance) danced to Irish jigs they wanted them at a ridiculous 145)

We had a couple people from Riverdance in our pub doing a demo and we played Merry Blacksmith at breakneck speed and it was still too slow for them.

even the sessions around town tend to be different speeds depending on the abilities. (the beginner group tends to play very fast and speeds up all the time (its easy to play fast while playing only half the notes) and the most advanced group plays on the slow side.

I like to be somewhere in between - but speed can be a problem - its no fun when its a race. Also the bodhran player should never set the speed- rather hold the group back from speeding up. Cheers Petr.

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Racer
Date: 05 May 00 - 10:53 PM

I just wanted to mention that I used to hate "The Cockies og Bungaree." The only version I had heard was done by Tommy Makem, who does it really slow. I recorded a version of it at double the tempo, and now it's one of my favorite songs.

We have a bodhran player in our session that does a wonderful job of setting the tempo and keeping it consistent throughout the entire tune. When someone tries to speed up, he just kind of ingores them and plays a little louder.

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 06 May 00 - 04:34 AM

Note to Fionn -

There is a series of recordings that would help in answering your question of what would be a proper speed for dancers. It's called "Music For The Sets." These tapes were made in Ireland in the late 1980's, for specific Irish dances. Here is a description of them from the notes on one of the tapes. "The music on this cassette has been arranged so that each track is the correct length for a particular set-dance figure and so that tunes are played at a pace suitable for dancing each set in the style traditionally considered appropriate to it. The musicians, although playing dance-music for many years, have not until recently have been accustomed to playing for dancers. This is a not uncommon experience for Irish musicians, and it is hoped that the publication of this cassette will help to correct this unnatural state of affairs by providing learners with real music to dance to, and musicians with an awareness of the requirements of dancers." The tapes were released in Ireland by Na Piobairi Uilleann, and they make excellent listening for non dancers, as well. They contain Reels, Jigs, Polkas, and hornpipes, with many of the tunes being standards. I think this series of cassettes would help answer your question about what is a proper speed for dancers. Well worth a listen, if you can find them these days.

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 May 00 - 05:42 PM

How about three notes an hour! - or am I at risk of crushednuts?

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: GUEST,Brigid in the mountains
Date: 07 May 00 - 01:52 PM

Being a bit of a sessionist, I have experienced differences. Generally speaking everyone plays the dance tunes far too quickly. When confronted with a couple of dancers at the session they are forced to play slower, and when that happens you get the feeling that the tunes are being dragged! I know I have been there! Obviously it is a rush to fly through a good reel, but if you asked a good dancer to dance to it at that speed they would not be impressed. So I reckon it does one good to listen to both the virtuosi and the ceilibands, and hit a middle.

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Albatross
Date: 09 May 00 - 10:43 AM

Phil Cunningham writes in the foreword to Karen Tweed's Traditional Irish Music book (and 2 cds) of 93 session tunes: "....Karen has never forgotten one of the most important aspects of traditional music: the session. The informal, fun side of playing, where tunes are shared, ideas and techniques swapped and in many cases, great bands are born.

Karen Tweed writes: ".... John Whelan was for me the perfect traditional Irish tutor. He taught me that every note in a tune is important; the amount of time and space you give to each note is crucial to creating your own style. This is 'phrasing' and to phrase a tune well is like speaking a sentence in a clear and relaxed manner. To talk about phrasing is like talking about dialect; the way you speak gives an insight into you as a person. So to phrase a tune correctly, you are giving something of your personality to the tune and that is what tradition is all about.

Having heard Burach from edinburgh playing last weekend they play extremely fast but also extremely brilliantly and some songs gentle and slow. In my experience Morris dancing always required very slow music while rapper dancing was never fast enough. In both cases the tempo stayed the same from beginning to end. By the way there are quite a few irish and scottish tunes used in Morris dancing!

Thanks for all the comments. Albatross(a session enthusiast)

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 09 May 00 - 10:57 AM

The speed to play for dancing depends on the situtation. In Irish dance competition the temp is strictly controlled or should be to ensure an equal starting point. The dancers all prefer certain musicians and tunes within this because it is the playing that lifts the dance. Some musicians make a good living out of playing for dance competitions. Outside competitions Irish dancers will dance at a range of speeds. The size of the range will depend on the experience of the dancers. In very fast sessions eperienced dancers wil use cut back steps to fit in with the timimg - you just won't notice.

For social dancing ( yes I've forgotten how to spell the C word again Celi in Irish) the range can be very wide as it is possible to do dances like Strip the willow and its variants as fast a it can be played.

In answer to the question - play at the speed you feel comfortable with- all speeds have their advantages. Variety is the spice of life.

Julie

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: GUEST,Nick Jones
Date: 09 May 00 - 04:36 PM

I always think it's best to be a Musician rather than a Technician.

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 10 May 00 - 04:48 AM

I think Julie and Nick hit the nail on the head. Fionn, if you read my note to you, don't mistake my answer to your question on dance tempo as a standard for sessions. It was only an answer to your specific question. For sessions,my first entry was a way of saying that the main thing is to get into a groove. The "groove" may be found at various speeds, and it's a special experience when it happens, but you just know when it's clicking and your comfortable with it. When you're in a groove, you can play at a fast clip without sounding rushed or slowly without dragging the tune. "How fast is fast and how slow is slow" is not, then, a matter of specific metronome tempi, but of feeling your way into that groove. Make sense?

Subject: RE: Help: How fast to play at irish sessions?
From: GUEST,mrEd
Date: 11 May 00 - 04:36 AM

I've been playing sessions for over ten years now and a question like this is not really necessary if you think about it. But I'll try anyway. The speed that you play tunes can be different from one time to the next. So much depends on the situation or the mood of the players at the time. Or, who started the tune. If someone is intentionally taking an easy pace on a tune and the next time someone plays it they start it with more energy, or in a medly with other tunes it will sound different. And I say, "Viva la differance!" However, in the case of certain typs of tunes you must make a distinction. For example: I hate playing slides like jigs. They sound dumb that slow. They're written to be played kind of like slow hornpipes (wich makes them sound like very fast jigs) but to keep them from sounding like really fast jigs you think of them as slow hornpipes. Speaking of hornpipes, try playing them like reels and you'll find out why they're hornpipes. The whole point I'm making here is to let the music itself dictate the speed. Also use common courtesy with your fellow musicians so that everyone enjoys themselves. If people at the session can't play up to speed and others can, play a few tunes slower, (ones that those players suggest,) and when they're done, cut loose with tunes the way you like them. If you're making time for the novices, they'll be more inclined to let you have at a few tunes too. And they just might sit them out to keep from bogging it down. Well, I hope this might help... good luck.