Chords?: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)

Subject: Waistdeep in...
From: Pablo
Date: 20 May 00 - 10:13 PM

There was a song about a troop of soldiers on a training mission, crossing the Big Muddy and nearly drowning. The chorus ran something like, "We were waist-deep [and later, "neck-deep"] in the Big Muddy, and the big fool said to push on."

I couldn't seem to raise it in the DT, but someone may know better.

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Subject: Lyr Add: WAIST DEEP IN THE BIG MUDDY (Pete Seeger)
From: Amergin
Date: 20 May 00 - 11:01 PM

Hey, Pablo, found them for you. Love this song myself.

WAIST DEEP IN THE BIG MUDDY
(Pete Seeger)

It was back in nineteen forty-two,
I was a member of a good platoon.
We were on maneuvers in-a Loozianna,
One night by the light of the moon.
The captain told us to ford a river,
That's how it all begun.
We were -- knee deep in the Big Muddy,
But the big fool said to push on.

The Sergeant said, "Sir, are you sure,
This is the best way back to the base?"
"Sergeant, go on! I forded this river
'Bout a mile above this place.
It'll be a little soggy but just keep slogging.
We'll soon be on dry ground."
We were -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.

The Sergeant said, "Sir, with all this equipment
No man will be able to swim."
"Sergeant, don't be a Nervous Nellie,"
The Captain said to him.
"All we need is a little determination;
Men, follow me, I'll lead on."
We were -- neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.

All at once, the moon clouded over,
We heard a gurgling cry.
A few seconds later, the captain's helmet
Was all that floated by.
The Sergeant said, "Turn around men!
I'm in charge from now on."
And we just made it out of the Big Muddy
With the captain dead and gone.

We stripped and dived and found his body
Stuck in the old quicksand.
I guess he didn't know that the water was deeper
Than the place he'd once before been.
Another stream had joined the Big Muddy
'Bout a half mile from where we'd gone.
We were lucky to escape from the Big Muddy
When the big fool said to push on.

Well, I'm not going to point any moral;
I'll leave that for yourself
Maybe you're still walking, you're still talking
You'd like to keep your health.
But every time I read the papers
That old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.

Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep! Neck deep! Soon even a
Tall man'll be over his head, we're
Waist deep in the Big Muddy!
And the big fool says to push on!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waistdeep in...
From: Jeri
Date: 21 May 00 - 08:52 AM

Also in the DT, titled Big Muddy. (I searched for the word "slogging," figuring there couldn't be many songs with that word in them.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waistdeep in...
From: Harold W
Date: 21 May 00 - 11:31 PM

Wasn't there an adaptation of the song in the late 1960's that got the Smother Brorthers in trouble?

Ken

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waistdeep in...
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 May 00 - 11:45 PM

Yup Ken.

They insisted on Pete Seeger singing it on the show, but the network cut it out. Eventually he DID get to sing it.

Rick

Subject: CHORD request Waist Deep, Richard Shindell
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 12:20 PM

This was always a song i wanted to learn but never did. I was reinspired by Richard Shindell's version and the fact that you can easily fit "twenty zero four" in for 1942. DOES ANYONE HAVE THE CHORDS? i can figure out the pain progression but it's not perfect. any help would be nice. Thanks pete

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete See
From: Genie
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 09:47 AM

I thought Pete Seeger sang it as "...damned fool ...   ."
I'm sure he didn't do it that way on TV in the sixties though.


I've been thinking about this song a lot recently.

It seems awfully timely these days.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete See
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:05 AM

Dick Gaughan does it thus on Sail On. He's including it a lot in his live sets lately, for obvious reasons.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 07:12 PM

There's a reference to it in John Fogerty's new song Deja vu all over again - that link has a sound file and the lyrics (which I've already posted here.)

A pretty powerful song, and it gets a lot of that through that reference, which brings in the emotions associated with Pete Seeger's song for anybody who can remember the last time round.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 08:02 PM

I vividly recall that Seeger DID sing "and the damn fool says to push on" on the Smothers Brothers' Comedy Hour. I believe he wrote the song specially to perform on the show. "Nervous Nellie," was an epithet that LBJ had applied to people who were advocating ending the war quickly or, as the President put it, who wanted to "cut and run."

Not long after Seeger's appearance - possibly his first on network TV in years, if ever - CBS cancelled (maybe didn't renew) the popular show. They said it had nothing to do with Seeger's song.

The Brothers had lots of trouble with CBS censors because they made funny allusions to drug use and frequently poked fun at politics.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:33 PM

I can't believe that no one has mentioned Bruce Springsteens' "Big Muddy" on his "Lucky Town" CD... It is a great song and "Lucky Town" may be Bruce's best folkie CD next to "Nebraska"....

Bobert

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 10:55 PM

"It was back in nineteen forty-two"

This line really struck me the other day as I heard this while really listening for the first time (y'know how you kinda gloss over the familiar sometimes?). Really shows Seeger's Stalinist leanings -- though even that doesn't really explain why the anti WWII sentiment. Everyone my age and younger, I beleive, is under the impression that this was an anti-VietNam song. Clearly it is not.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:48 PM

John Hardly, there was never any doubt that it WAS an anti-Vietnam War song. CBS (as well as NBC and ABC) had strict "programming standards" at the time regarding what sort of material they'd broadcast. Anything conceivably "controversial" was taboo in an entertainment show like "The Smothers Brothers." When word got around that Tom and Dick wanted Seeger on the show, many CBS executives were absolutely opposed. Somebody must have lobbied hard -and the Smothers Brothers themselve had a lot of clout at the time because their show was so popular.

"The Big Muddy" is a symbolic song, and most people knew it at the time. The "sergeant" was transparently LBJ stupidly leading the country deeper into a swamp and too dumb to turn back. That was Seeger's view, all right, mildly stated. If he had named LBJ, or Vietnam, there might have been a riot in the studio audience.

Also, by making the lyrics indirect, Seeger could say to critics who angrily objected for some days afterwards, "It's just a song. If the show fits, wear it."

After the Nazi invasion of the USSR in 1941, American Marxists who (along with conservatives!) had preached isolationism, became strong advocates of aiding Stalin against Hitler. Pete Seeger served honorably in the U.S. army (in Special Services as an entertainer) throughout World War II).

No way could Seeger have been criticizing American participation in WWII.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 08:25 PM

Couldn't be much clearer that it was aimed at the Vietnam War, with that penultimate verse:

Well, maybe you'd rather not draw any moral;
I'll leave that to yourself
Maybe you're still walking and you're still talking
And you'd like to keep your health.
But every time I read the papers
That old feeling comes on:
Waist deep in the Big Muddy and the
Big Fool says to push on.

But of course sung today it means a different war.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 09:43 PM

1942 is, what? 20 years before Viet Nam's escalation.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete See
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 06:54 PM

The fact that the events in a song happen back in 1942 doesn't mean the song was written back then, or that it is just about those events.

That verse I quoted pretty unambiguously takes the events described in the earlier verses and applies them to the events happening at the time the song was given to the world.

Any good song written later about a historical event will also inevitably be about the time the song was written, even if only implicitly.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:54 PM

The song may have been partly inspired by a well publicized incident that occurred at the U.S. Marine Corps Parris Island Recruit Depot in 1956. Six trainees out of a platoon of 74 drowned as their drill instructor tried to lead them on a disciplinary march across Ribbon Creek.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:31 PM

Pablo, who started this thread four years ago, and John Hardley, are understandably confused by the date 1942, but McGrath is right. Seeger wrote and copyrighted it in 1967; his subject Vietnam. Lighter is right about the event that probably inspired Seeger.

I "think" I remember an earlier, similar event about the time I entered the Army in 1942, but I may be confused about that. It was a long time ago.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 11:39 PM

There have been periodic incidents of training-camp deaths due to overzealous drill sergeants and/or officers -- maybe once per decade, or once per war, in the US. 95%+ of trainees (hell, maybe 99%+) get through the ordeal intact, but there is always a possibility of danger, especially if the leader is really dysfunctional.

There probably *was* a historical event in 1942 that Pete refers to in this song, which [hint] he wrote at the height of controversy over Vietnam in the 60s. Then you have the 1956 incident cited above by Lighter, and I'm sure I heard about another similar tragedy before or during the time *I* was in basic training, which was 1972. Maybe at least once more within the last decade or so, too.

McGrath is absolutely correct in pointing out that songs and other works of art with political messages OFTEN refer to parallel events from an earlier period as a way to mask or symbolize discussion of a current-day controversy. Songs of Irish rebellion, for example, often refer to incidents that occurred during an uprising / conflict / "trouble" that was already history when the song first appeared.

Outside the realm of music, consider the novel, then film, then TV series "M*A*S*H." The setting was Korea in 1951-52, but everyone who ever read the book, watched the film, or saw even one episode of the TV show had to be put in mind of Vietnam.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 09:50 AM

Yeah, except that, as with M*A*S*H, the parallels extend to the war referrenced in the "Art". M*A*S*H was anti-Korean war too. Big Muddy was anti-WWII too. It pandered to the "Masters of War" type of anti-war crowd. No justafiable war.

Everyone ALWAYS wants to cut Seeger a break -- even if it means re-writing history.

The only thing unambiguous is the date 1942 -- not the swamp.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 12:51 PM

I don't get it. Who's re-writing history?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete See
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 12:52 PM

Big Muddy is esentially about the dangers of irresponsible and pigheaded leadership in any life-threatening situation.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 05:16 PM

"...any life-threatening situation."

Yup. Any war. Showing Seeger's pollyanna side -- even WWII was not justifiable, not necessary. Just a little jab at his WWII contemporaries whom I'm sure he looked patronizingly downward at as having served their country in an unnecessary war -- serving the masters of war.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete See
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 06:41 PM

Big Muddy was anti-WWII too

Jesus, Mary and Joseph- thick as a bloody plank. The song was written decades AFTER WWII fer chrissakes-

Grab a goddamn dictionary and look up "Allegory" and "Parable", will ya???

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 07:34 PM

Also prescribe a bio of Seeger. He served in WW2, and as a member of the Communist party, supported actions against the Fascists in that war.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 08:20 PM

1942 isn't a random date. We were at war in 1942. Allegory shmallegory.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete See
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 09:44 PM

Inconquerable ignorance prevails yet again.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete See
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 05:31 AM

You mean it doesn't recognize when it hasn't prevailed?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 08:17 AM

I once did a survey of general knowledge among students at my (large)university after one year in college.

More than 30% thought Russia was one of our enemies in WW II.

That was nearly twenty years ago. Dunno what the results would be like today....

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 09:32 AM

Russia was an ally, right up until the end of the war. Then, the end of the war changed the world forever. Some, like Seeger still saw Russia as the good guys and US as the bad. Others saw an impending
"Cold War" and felt as though the principles and foundations of the US were both at risk and worth preserving. It isn't a surprise that the conclusion of WWII would change Seeger's opinion of the war after the fact.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Sep 04 - 08:37 PM

The LAST WORD necessary on this topic was issued 28 Sep 04 - 12:52 PM. I was tempted to add a message of my own after I saw it, just to express agreement, but it seemed inappropriate not to let things rest as they were.

I'm sorry to see that more of the same thickheaded beside-the-point haggling has continued. Whoever's right and whoever's wrong (and I have a strong opinion on that score), nobody has been able to express anything to change the other side's mind -- and they won't.

Every possible argument has been advanced. Anyone who ever reads this thread will get a complete picture of two opposing points of view. At this point, people are just repeating themselves, which isn't going to change anybody's mind.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:36 PM

Should be a way to link these threads. Some have become very difficult to cross-check.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 02:44 PM

Pete Seeger's performance of "Big Muddy" on the Smothers Brothers show has been captured and posted to YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnrHWhmMiz8

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete See
From: John Routledge
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM

What a song. What a performance. Thanks Charlie!!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:02 AM

I'm going to post the minority view here.

This is a good example of a forgettable, commercial unfolksong.

Pete Seeger was a New Yorker. Smothers Bros show prob came out of California. Song reeks of bi-coastal contempt for anybody in-between.

The Big Muddy is the Missouri River. It is huge, swift and powerful. To deal with it you don't just need a boat and motor, you need a BIG boat and motor. To enter it without a boat is to commit suicide. No way is a river in Louisiana, where grades are more level, the Big Muddy.

By changing the date to 1942 (to rhyme with "platoon" for heaven's sake) Seeger exploits and trivializes the deaths of the recruits in 1956. Well, they were only flyovers.

As for the line "We were on maneuvers in-a Loozianna" who the hell talks that way?

I'm not surprised this song has gone into obscurity.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete See
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 01:58 PM

Other rivers can be called 'the big Muddy'. Many people will swear big muddy' must mean the Mississippi, I always thought the song just meant 'a pretty big muddy river around here' Who knows. And many a big river (or its backwater channels) will get quite shallow in a bad drought.

Who the hell talks that way? Quite a few. Many people is Louisiana call their state Loozianna and scoff at anybody who uses the Lou-ee version.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but mine is that the song happened to have a powerful allegorical message, and it slipped into the background during some years of relative peace. Now we have a national crisis and 'leader' once again equal to the idiot in the song, and once again the song comes to mind.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 03:10 PM

It's supposed to be an allegory, leeneia. And a damned good one, at that.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete See
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 04:50 PM

Sadly, it's decidedly non-forgettable - and with today's news about escalation in Iraq, it's more up-to-date and topical than ever:

Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep! Neck deep! Soon even a
Tall man'll be over his head, we're
Waist deep in the Big Muddy!
And the big fool says to push on!

And here is a YouTube clip of John Fogerty's Deja Vu All Over Again, with its reference to this song to Pete Seeger's song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 07:18 AM

Did I once hear Pete S sing the very last line "And the bastard says...".
It was a long time ago, maybe I just wanted to hear it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 10:44 AM

Unfortunately, many good songs are capable of being used to refer to more than one event. History runs in cycles. We seem to be in a situation which parallels Viet Nam now. If you wish to carry WWII further, that is when Pete would have had his basic training in the army.

PS, there is a book about Ribbon Creek by the base CO at the time of the incident. Quite informative.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 11:22 AM

Some links for more about Ribbon Creek:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_Creek_Incident

The book mentioned above:
http://www.amazon.com/Court-Martial-Parris-Island-Ribbon-Incident/dp/1557508143

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete Seeger)
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 03:18 PM

These are not the books to which I referred. The book is entitled "Ribbon Creek." It was written by the base CO, whose career was effectively ended by the incident and its aftermath.

Referring to Gen. Puller's testimony, this sort of incident was not that rare. Times have changed but the external events seem to be consistently similar in places around the world.
Just because Pete wrote a good antiwar song which resonates today does not make him a life long communist. He is much more of a humanist, supporting causes which he believes are right. His support of the ideals of the CP is a reflection of his world view. As one who chops his own wood and is willing to go to jail for his beliefs, he really does walk the walk.
There is no question that he hates war--all war, also hate and negativity.
I may not always agree with him but I do respect him.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy (Pete See
From: GUEST,nube
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:31 AM

So... anyone got the chords for this awesomely allegorical/commercial/literal/forgetable/powerful STILL APPLICABLE folk song?   Thanks,    The Nube

Subject: Chord Req: Waist Deep In The Big Muddy
From: Joe Rock
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:54 AM

I had a chord chart for this great Pete Seeger song which I used to perform. I have lost the chart and the recording I had. Does anyone have the chords so I can add this still very relevant song back into my shows ? Thanks to all who try !!!!

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Waist Deep In The Big Muddy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:39 AM

Haven't got a chord chant, but here is a YouTube clip of Pete singing it. Pretty straightforwared chords I'd have thought.

Timely song, especially with all this stuff about "surges" - that's what you get with rivers in flood.