I'm not worthy...or Am I?

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Homeless
Date: 23 May 00 - 02:07 PM

OK, I concede it can be read both ways. I was looking at "feel their efforts" as opposed to "represent their efforts."
When was the "me" generation? Maybe I'm too young (34) to have been in the midst of that. Tho I've never had much use for society or their norms. If I feel that I've done a good job on something, I have no problem with saying so. But I am very much the sufferer of seeing flaws in my own work where others don't.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:48 PM

Homeless - I think I don't know WHERE I was headed with this. But BOTH are topics worthy of discussion in my opinion.

I have been being told for waytoomany years that I am part of the "me" generation - so how does this fit in with either being supercritical of my own work OR "socialy humble"?

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:43 PM

Dunno' Homeless........I went back and read Mario's post and I see it as both in a way. I picked up more on the "not worthy" angle, although the other is there too.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Homeless
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:38 PM

Spaw - going back to your first post, I agree with what you said, but I'm not sure that it is that same as what MMario was asking. Correct me if I'm in err here, but you mean that you think you actually did the best you could, but verbally will depreciate the actions/outcome to others due to our society's norms? I believe what MMario is asking is when you do your best, do you still see the errors that others miss or neglect to mention.

MMario - yes, I know for myself what you say is true. On anything that I create, no matter how blueprint perfect, I always see places where I could have done it differently/made it better. And somehow those things seem to become the focal points for me. Other people look at it and see the beautiful finished (dulcimer, jewelry box, computer program, song, whatever).
Over the years I've come to adopt what is probably an unhealthy attitude toward audience/criticisers. And that is that I discount or ignore any comments on something unless that person is an expert in that field. I've built a couple lap dulcimers that I've had plenty of people ooh and ahh over, to which my reaction was always, "Yeah, right. Thanx." Until a luthier looked it over and gave me his opinions on it. Those opinions I valued.

I don't mean to come off sounding like the general populace's opinions don't matter - they do, for each person. And if your audience is happy with your performance then you should be happy with it too. But for (constructive) criticism I usually value only an expert's opinion, because mine is usually too harsh.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: kendall
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:31 PM

It's been 50 years of performing in public, and, I still get so nervous sometimes that my shoes wont stay tied. Rick, I just played one of your tapes on the stereo of my new car, a Lincoln with a great sound system, and you sound great!!

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:23 PM

I find that criticism (including self-criticism) is far more helpful to me than compliments, since you can do something with criticism to improve yourself. The problem with it is that you have to be able to do this from a strong base of original self-confidence. Otherwise it is likely some form of self-abasement, reproducing bad parental criticism, not getting too far ahead of other people, fake humility, etc. -- all basically crippling responses. And it is very important to recognise that other people respond completely differently to criticism than you do -- they have their own demons to fight. Some people thrive on it; some people die under it. You can't tell unless you test it out gingerly. I have a very few students who come up and tell me that I am the first person to take them seriously in their whole lives, because I take what they say seriously enough to criticise it as hard as I can -- but 90% of my students would wither under that kind of criticism because they need lots of positives before you can venture a negative. I used to be judgemental about this -- the old boot camp, Marine corps method I personally learned under -- boy, shape up or ship out -- but I gave it up as stupid, thank goodness, a long time ago -- we are all wired differently.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:09 PM

McGrath that's exactly the problem!!! Nothing like the good old puritanical Christian ethic. Its OK...but don't let it stop the feeling of deservedness.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:06 PM

When you are a guest, make your way to the lowest place and sit there, so that, when your host comes, he may say "My friend, move up higher". In that way everyone with you at the table will see you honoured. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the man whio humbles hmself will be exalted.(St Luke xiii)

Mind, it doesn't always work out like that. But it's a pretty good rule of thumb.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:06 PM

Rick, I'm not sure it that reassures me or frightens the heck out of me!

Objective critiscism is fantastic. But finding someone to give it can sometimes be hard! I think most people tend to go one way or the other, be too critical or too lenient with critiscism.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 May 00 - 01:06 PM

Most of us grew up being taught that bragging is a no-no. Even when we knew we had done well, it was taboo to even acknowledge a compliment with a simple thank you unless "qualifiers" were attached.

"Pat, that was a tremendous meal, just excellent."
"Well thanks but it really wasn't much. And I think the sauteed veggies were a little overdone."

Sound familiar? Its because that out of all the "self" things that are worth relearning....self-esteem, etc.....what most of us have a difficult time achieving is a "feeling of deservedness." If its negative, we feel we got what was "coming to us." But because we're taught NOT to call undue attention to ourselves or brag, then the positives get treated like my example above. So consider this scenario: You have worked hard and prepared that meal and you KNOW its great, but the above interchange takes place BUT THEN CONTINUES-------

"Ya know Pat, you're right, they were overdone. And I think you may have used a bit too much wine in them too."

Now you're pissed aren't you? We work hard and do our best...we deserve the praise. We don't do our best, we don't. And one more thing.............Sometimes we get something out of the blue and say we're lucky and don't deserve it. Well, think of all the times you worked hard and didn't get what you should have gotten for your efforts. Consider those gifts out of the blue as life's payback for the many times you've been screwed.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 May 00 - 12:58 PM

MMario, ain't it the truth.

After 32 years of playing for my dough, I've never done a concert where I didn't ask someone (Heather for the last 12) "How was it?"

I still worry whether:

My pitch was spot on

My tempos seemed right

Did I talk too much?

Did I enunciate properly?

Was the set paced properly?

Did folks "hear" my mistakes?

Overall, I've got a lot of confidence in the music I sing and play publicly, but that insecurity never REALLY goes away. I'm well aware that most of your friends and family will always say "ooooh that was wonderful..." but I constantly learn from objective criticism...and I KNOW that it improves your performance next time. Keeps you from getting lazy as well. Some folks just radiate "self-confidence" (whether they believe it or not) but most of the worthwhile artists I've met sure don't.

Rick

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 00 - 12:48 PM

but Mbo - your actions have (at times) shown that you don't always follow that philosophy. *grin* In fact, you sometimes exhibit the strangest combination of reticent shyness and outgoing conviviality I have experienced.

Subject: RE: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: Mbo
Date: 23 May 00 - 12:42 PM

"I am not one of those people who count modesty as one of the virtues." --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

--Mbo

Subject: I'm not worthy...or Am I?
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 00 - 12:37 PM

A comment out at the MudCat Auction made me stop and think. Frequently you will hear people put down their own efforts, whether this is a song, a tune, a poem, or a piece of handcraft, whatever. It seems to be a natural inclination to feel that one's own efforts are "not worthy". I know from personal experience that where I see glaring errors, others will not see faults. (Of course the reverse is also true...to my great chagrin.) What are other people's experiences, feelings, comments?