Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis

Subject: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 30 May 00 - 08:21 AM

Well guys this time I am not going through a personal moniker identity crisis but rather a musical one.
I have been focused on developing my instrumental technical skills. It has not been a priority for me to add vocals to my tunes or learn lyrics to songs.
Recently I spent some time with a friend who suggested it was time for me to start considering adding vocals to my tunes, learning lyrics to songs and expanding my vocal range so that I may become more than just background music. He pointed out a song writers course that was being held this summer and suggested maybe I should consider it.
I have mixed feelings about this.
Part of me feels having just learned to juggle the components of instrumental skills I need more time to solidify all I have been learning. To throw in a vocal ball just seems like too much.
Part of me thinks I am not that interested in vocals as much as I am being a good instrumental player.
I plan to bring this question up with Rick at my next lesson but I thought I'd throw it out to you guys to see if you have ever experienced similar situations.
Rick has encouraged me to learn lyrics to songs, start a song book, work on my vocals, etc... Rick provide me with the tools I need to do this. I go home, focus on it for a while and then fall back into just being focused on the instrumentals. Kind of like the character Schroder from the Peanuts who didn't say much, but he sure loved to play the piano.
Has anyone else experienced this kind of thing?

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: MMario
Date: 30 May 00 - 08:46 AM

A someone who sings and doesn't play a single insturment, I think I will stay out of this one. *grin*

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 30 May 00 - 08:47 AM

Certainly Bonnie! I've been an instrumentalist for about 35 years and only about a year or two ago branched into the wonderful world of vocals as well. It took a big battle with myself having been labelled a "groaner" at 11 and not fit for the school choir or any other sort of music for that matter. Learning the guitar and mandolin was a backlash against that but it took another 36 years to tackle the big issue of actually singing in public. Maybe I'm still a groaner but what the heck...life's too short and at least a few people have given me some positive feedback. If you feel like it...go for it!

Peace,

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Mooh
Date: 30 May 00 - 09:19 AM

I say do it. And listen to Rick.

I've been singing and playing for so long I don't remember how I actually accomplished it, except to say that I could sing before I could play but that putting the two together took time. Even if you don't learn it for the enjoyment of others, learn it for yourself.

It's only been recently that I've discovered that others hear my voice much better than I hear it. I can sing well, but I never thought I had a good timbre. Having worked with some stellar singers over the years didn't leave alot of space for me anyway. Some recent events have made me want to pursue vocals more openly, and to my surprise, I'm enjoying it.

More musical opportunities happen for folks who sing AND play. I'm primarily an instrumentalist, and enjoy that the most, but a variety of skills will be mutually supportive. ie: Training as a singer will help you understand how to phrase instrumental lines as a singer, and therefore learn vocal melodies more naturally, just as learning timing and chords on an instrument will help the singer in you learn about entrances and harmony.

It's okay to be more casual about the singing than you are about playing. You will retain the knowledge of it even if sometimes your discipline of it slides. I bet that your subconscious mind will be listening for vocal knowledge (it's in everything we hear) all the time, and storing it for future use.

Last, listen to Rick, the guy knows what he's talking about. Good luck.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 May 00 - 09:20 AM

Well Bonnie, I have a strong inclination towards the instrumental stuff, an "Irish" session being my favourite but I would suggest you go for both. One good thing is with folk music, you don't have to be a great singer to get some enjoyment out of singing. I am certainly not but it does not stop me trying in Hearme!

Jon

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Gary T
Date: 30 May 00 - 09:46 AM

From what I read, Bonnie, you don't seem to have real desire to learn vocals. The motivation appears to be responding to comments from others rather than a fire from within. It doesn't strike me as a compelling reason to add singing/learning words to your repertoire.

I do like to sing, and learned guitar chords to be able to accompany myself singing. That way I could be sure the guitarist (me) would be able to do (most of) the songs I wanted to sing. As I have no real interest in writing songs, and you presumably have less interest in that, I can't help but wonder what the value would be for you in a songwriting class.

You may find that singing to some of the songs you play will help in developing your instrumental skills, especially if you plan to play while the songs are being sung by someone. In particular, elements of phrasing and timing might be affected by this. Examples: Sometimes a singer needs a few extra seconds to remember the words to the next verse, having the instrument players repeat the opening line rather than plunge into the whole verse can be helpful. Some songs, when sung, have a "pause" measure that is often left out by instrumentalists--singers are accutely aware of this but many pickers have never even thought about it. Some songs have vocal "dead space" between lines that are perfect for fill-in riffs, obviously one has to know how the singing goes in order to identify these.

Now, is the real question one of trying to figure out if you want to do vocals, or trying to figure out what to say to folks who tell you should do them?

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Alice
Date: 30 May 00 - 10:08 AM

Knowing both will help you in performing, but are you really asking about whether to take a song writer's course? It seems this suggestion from your friend to take the course is where your "identity crisis" started. If you don't feel that interested, or have the time, or for whatever reason, don't feel like you have to start writing your own songs just because someone else thinks you should. It sounds to me like your are doing just fine by learning your main instrument and developing your vocal technique. I studied piano long before I studied voice, but I never Loved playing instruments as much as I love singing. I rarely play piano now. I made singing my main focus. I have learned some instrumental skills, but I am a singer, and when people ask what I play, I tell them I am a singer. For me, there is something about being able to tell the story of the song as well as make music, and also, the control I have over singing, that will continue to make it my main focus. I spend far more time singing than playing an instrument, because singing gives me greater satisfaction.
Go with what gives you the greatest satisfaction (follow your bliss) and the other skills you develop that are compatible with playing banjo will be an added bonus.

Alice

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Mark Clark
Date: 30 May 00 - 10:21 AM

Bonnie,

It sort of depends on why you took up the banjo in the first place. Possible candidate reasons include:

1. You fell in love with the sound of the banjo the first time you heard one and became totally obsessive about learning to play it.
2. You fell in love with a certain musical genre and decided to select an appropriate instrument that fit in.
3. Your friends were always playing music every time you were together and you decided you wanted to participate.
4. You'd like to be able to entertain yourself, friends and family from time to time.
5. You had a vision of becoming the first banjo goddess on MTV.
6. You just wanted to be cool.

Chances are it was a complicated combination of those reasons. If no. 1 is your main reason, don't worry about singing just keep pushing your technique and your repitoir. If it's no. 5, don't worry they can always dub some vocals in later *BG*. If your chosen genre is not an ensemble form, you'll probably want to sing. Ditto, for entertaining friends. If you are playing ensemble music, and your chosen form includes vocals, you'll not only want to sing but you'll want to be familiar with as many harmony parts as you can manage.

Presumably, no. 6 was not one of your reasons. I'm guessing you were already cool.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From:
Date: 30 May 00 - 10:41 AM

Bonnie ... I'm a vocalist first and instrumentalist second ... and I cannot imagine one without the other. Do what's comfortable but, please, "step out of your comfort zone" if it really isn't your cuppa, at least you'll have had the experience ... moonchild

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 30 May 00 - 10:55 AM

Mark, it was number one. I fell in love with the sound of the banjo and I wanted to learn how to become a good player.
Like Jon, I wouldn't mind singing on Hearme, I just do not have a strong inclination to do so. Although I think Hearme would be a great opportunity to experience an audience listening to my tunes.

Gary T., I think you hit it spot on. Everything you said is what I am feeling right now. Your advice to learn some lyrics and sing along to improve my timing, chords, repeating opening lines, "pause" measures etc... That makes a great deal of sense to me.
The real question I guess isn't if I want to develop my voice and write songs, it is what to say to folks who tell me I should.
Mooh, you are right about Rick, he always does give me wise advice when I come up with dilemmas like this one.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 30 May 00 - 11:14 AM

Bonnie:

Sounds like you are ready to jump to another level of musicianship: that of balancing and intertwining your playing with other factors. I know that for myself the hardest thing that I am undergoing is learning to work with an external stimulus. I can play an instrumental. I can sing a song. When I put them together, I find I have to adjust both to make them work. Singing and playing is sort of like being your own ensemble. There is a give and take that doesn't exist when each is done separately. When I do either alone I almost go into a meditative trance (eyes closed) focusing on the stream of notes, or words. Can you play and pay attention, respond, to something else at the same time? I can't yet.

So, starting to sing will likely help your instrumental playing and in developing that ability to respond and play off others that is so important to being a well rounded musician (at least that is what I'm aiming at).

Do you play with others regularly? Change leads? Play off their moods and notes? Learning to sing and play at the same time may help you do this by training you to shift focus and include some external stimuli. This is true even if you never ever let anyone else hear you sing.

I hope my rambling makes some sense. You may already be beyond this, or intrinsically understand it. It just seems that we are traveling down along the same musical journey except you may be a little further along than I am. The questions that you are asking are the same ones that go through my mind. So keep aksing.

JAB

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 May 00 - 11:15 AM

There are thousands of musicians who get tremendous joy out of playing. They don't sing a note.

I think Gary T makes a great point when he says:

"Now, is the real question one of trying to figure out if you want to do vocals, or trying to figure out what to say to folks who tell you, you should do them?"

I feel that a teacher should open doors, and explain to the best of their ability what lies behind the doors. Behind most of the "music option" doors lie OTHER PEOPLE. Some doors lead to "sessions", others to "song circles", some to "pickin' AND singin". There's the door that leads to a professional or semi-professional role, and there's a door that leads to "puttin' a band together". One door that is always an option does NOT have people behind it. It's for solitary satisfaction. Most people choose it. You play OR sing not for others, but for yourself alone. You play OR sing to relieve tension, to ease boredom, to heal the blues, or to simply feel good.

My job as I see it, is to help someone WHO HAS DECIDED WHICH DOOR(S) to enter, be as well-equipped as possible to deal with the stuff they're gonna find there.

For example if someone is going to visit a song circle for the first time (didn't you tell me that you were invited to one?) they need to know how to pitch a song, so that not only they, but others, can participate as well. If they're going to a session, they'd better be able to play in A, D or G. and MUST know the form most tunes take (A parts, and B parts and the like) and so on. If you're going to play or sing strictly for yourself, the only rule is...enjoy.

Pick when you want to...and sing (or don't sing) when you want to.

Rick

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: JenEllen
Date: 30 May 00 - 11:17 AM

Practice, and wait for your song. There's got to be one out there, begging for YOUR voice, and YOUR banjo. Songbooks are a great idea, and you can sharpen your skills while learning to sing along. Best of luck to you and your voice.
~Jen

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 00 - 11:20 AM

I pen one occasionally, but can't sing worth a hoot. I play a little guitar, but I'm no virtuoso. I wish I could sing better so my lyrics would sound better, but I'd settle for being able to play better so I wouldn't have to sing to break the tedium.

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: DADGBE
Date: 30 May 00 - 11:32 AM

Hi Bonnie, Mooh's point about using singing to help learn your instrument is a good one and often overlooked. The best instrumentalists shape and phrase their music the way singers do, but it doesn't necessarily follow that you have to sing in order to learn. Just listening carefully to your favorite singers will help teach you what phrasing means and how to do it.
Mark's point about assessing why you started to play in the first place is a good way to select where you're going to go now. Remember, though, that as you grow and change you might develop different reasons which will take you in different directions. When I started playing guitar in the early 1950's I wanted to be the hottest player I could become; not an unusual wish for a shy, prepubescent wannabe kid. Now, sharing music is a way to foster community; not an unusual wish for an old fart.>br> Also, you don't have to write songs in order to be a good singer or musician. Writing is a whole different skill which takes lots of time to develop. There are so many great songs out there that just singing or playing the ones others have written is enough for most people.
Whatever directions your music takes you is going to work to help you expand your horizons. Your own skills will improve by doing what you're already doing. There's value in concentrating on one facet at a time and there's also value in experimenting with many approaches.
Isn't it wonderful that even our little corner of the world of music is so large that we can keep learning for the rest of our lives?!
Just keep on playing...
Best,
Ray

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 30 May 00 - 11:40 AM

Well I think Rick hits it on the noggin too when he says.........
"My job as I see it, is to help someone WHO HAS DECIDED WHICH DOOR(S) to enter, be as well-equipped as possible to deal with the stuff they're gonna find there".
I am quite sure my confusion has much to do with not being absolutely clear about what other doors I am interested in opening. I have not experienced enough to feel solid in my decision. Decisions can also be ever evolving and changing too.

And JAB, I also relate to what you are saying.
I think when I start playing regularily with others, much of my questions may start to be resolved.
And yes, I am going to experience my first song circle which is coming up in June. By participating in 'other doors' I will learn what interests me and what does not.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Alice
Date: 30 May 00 - 12:40 PM

Bonnie, it may even be helpful to find just one or two friends you could sing along with in private a few times to warm up to the bigger song circle. It doesn't seem so intimidating when you have experienced a gradual progression of singing with others.

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 00 - 04:20 PM

Singing songs and playing tunes are very different things, and as I understand it, for most of the time people have been doing these things, these have tended to be separate. To oversimplify things, the songs are for listening to, the music is for dancing.

For me, the best singing is singing without any musical accompaniment.(So is the worst.) And the best tunes are tunes played without anyone singing. And the best kind of musical activity is the sort of session where the tunes are interspersed with unaccompanied songs, with people hushing up to listen to them.

But putting the two together is what people seem to find more accessible. And it is a lot of fun, and can sound pretty good.

But what tends to happen is that the musical accompaniment takes over and drives the song, and that can destroy the pacing of many songs - it's not so much a matter of the singer pausing to remember the next line (though it can be that) - it's more a matter of the listeners being allowed a chance to reflect on it and take it in before the next line is given to them.

I think Gary T was right to suggest that an instrumentalist who doesn't sing songs is going to find it hard to provide the kind of accompaniment that doesn't put a song off-balance. Telling stories might give something of the same understanding of the way that the meaning has precedence over the sound.

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: GUEST,Sean Ruprecht-Belt
Date: 30 May 00 - 04:39 PM

I've played guitar and sung both accompanied and acapella for years. Then a while back I decided to take up the banjo, and more recently, the dulcimer. Now I'm having to relearn how to sing with an instrument all over again! It's fun, but I do find that I'm focussing more on fiddle tunes and dance music with these instruments and that's also changing the way I think about the guitar.

My advice (and worth every penny it costs, mind you ;-)) is to continue to explore singing and take a few peeks behind those doors that Mr. Fielding mentions above. But, don't put too much pressure on yourself. If playing music isn't fun, it's just not worth doing IMHO.

- Sean

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: GUEST,Jeri (oops - dropped my cookie somewhere)
Date: 30 May 00 - 05:27 PM

Bonnie, this is not a commitment. My advice is to try it long enough to make sure you either want to do it or you don't. In other words, it can't hurt to try, and you may find you like it.

And remember when you were talking about watching your fingers? Guess what - if you sing, you probably won't be able to watch so you're going to improve your "muscle memory" playing.

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Amos
Date: 30 May 00 - 05:56 PM

Aw, g'wan an' sing, Bonnie, if you feel like it! An' tell those who tell you you "should" thanks for the advice, you'll take it under careful consideration. THen forget 'erm and c hoose your own notes and path.

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 May 00 - 06:44 PM

Every blessed night in Toronto there are folks who gather to play some form of folk music. That's one of the GOOD things about living in a big city. They play for two reasons: number one, they love music. Number two they want to interact with flesh and blood human beings. They go to places like the Tranzac, The Free Times, Oasis, and each others' homes. There are beginners and veterans alike.

On a couple of occasions I've gone to irish sessions....not to play...'cause I don't know the tunes very well. Just to soak up the atmosphere. If I had the time I'd love to go on a regular basis. One of the best Bluegrass Jams happens every Thursday night at the Pilot Tavern...unfortunately that's a teaching night or I WOULD be there. Lotsa Banjos and old time music. It's a great way to learn music.

But ya need to be around PEOPLE.

Rick

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Sean Belt
Date: 30 May 00 - 07:01 PM

Rick,

Thanks for making the above point. In the best of jam sessions, the question really isn't about "to perform or not to perform". It's all about relating to other folks and the give and take of spirited musical conversation.

-Sean

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 31 May 00 - 08:40 AM

Lots of good insight on this thread. I agree with what seems to be the consensus, that singing helps your playing, playing helps your singing, and both help you to interact with other musicians -- which is a great social outlet, and also a great way to keep your music alive and growing. Time devoted to singing will help advance your playing skills, so I wouldn't worry that putting the time into learning to sing will somehow detract from your continued instrumental progress. I would view it as something that is likely to make you a more complete and well-rounded musician, in all respects.

Once you get the singing thing under your belt, you can get a harmonica in a neck rack, and a bass drum to play with your foot, and a kazoo, and you'll really be somthing. Then you can change your name to Bandjo Bonnie.

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 31 May 00 - 04:26 PM

And as my Dad would say: "you can stick a broom up your posterior and sweep the stage at the same time!"

Rick

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 May 00 - 04:55 PM

Bonnie, I would say that there can often be a big difference between songwriting and song singing. Why would your friend recommend a songwriters course instead of a singing course? Probably because the friend sensed that you were so independently creative -- and not that you were needing necessarily to sing -- that you might as well add words. You strike me as someone who is already working away at being creative as an instrumentalist, and it wouldn't be that big a leap to start adding words as an added facet of that creativity (or not as it suits you). But that seems to me a different project than expanding your vocal range, interpreting songs, etc. They can be the same, but not necessarily -- not everyone is a "singer/songwriter" -- I personally have no interest in being a songwriter, but improving my singing voice would be nice.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Experiencing a Musical Indentity Crisis
From: Jed at Work
Date: 31 May 00 - 04:57 PM

singin' is an important part of the music, for me - but I know plenty of good musicians who don't sing, or don't sing much. It comes down to what appeals to you, what you wanna do, and what makes you feel good. If you're not sure; do a little of both, then decide.