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BS: Why are the Irish so Irish?
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Subject: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Frank McGrath Date: 07 Jun 00 - 01:45 PM Its the bloody folk music I blame. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Ebbie Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:02 PM Seriously, what does make the Irish so Irish? I have just a wee bit of Irish in me- one ancestor several generations back- but I swear it's enough to make me resonate to all things Irish. What makes the Irish so uniquely themselves? The music, the laughter, the angst, the well-developed sense of history as seen through 800-year-old eyes... Is there another country for which this is true? Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:11 PM I don't know; I have been into Irish music, dance, poetry, literature, accent - you name it - forever, and then just a few years ago found out that my ancestors stopped in Ireland for a generation or two on their way from France to the New World. We're talking 1600's here. And I don't know if they just lived there, or married locals or perhaps just had their children, so I don't know if I have actual genetic input or did I just acquire the love of all things Irish in a kind of Lamarckian enviromental way... Meanwhile I wish I wish I wish I'd known that when honeymooning in Ireland, I didn't look anyone up! So I'm not sure if it's genetic or not, but whatever it is, it sure is strong! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Sorcha Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:23 PM I have been told that the Russians are that way, also, but have never met one, so right now it is just a rumor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Rana who SHOULD be working Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:25 PM Do you mean Russians so Irish or Russians so Russian? Rana |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Frank McGrath Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:26 PM Don't take this seriously, please! I'm just being a smartarse. I warn you! Take this thread seriously and I'll start several more with titles like; Why are tall people so French? Why are Eskimos so not-Japanese? Why are condoms so bad for Partridges? Why are bicycle clips superior musicians? Why are nose hairs so influential? Why are clouds so "big-white-up-in-the-sky" type thingys? Why are thingys so..."you know"? Or even........ I'm serious! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Ebbie Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:42 PM Back off, Frank McG! You started it and I aim to continue it! So. Well, I chickened out and erased my thoughts. But if someone else wants to disregard Frank's dictum and pursue this, I would love it! Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: The Shambles Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:46 PM I'm not going to disregard Frank's dictum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,Annraoi Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:48 PM Simple answer. Who the Hell else would want to be us ? Annraoi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: NEIL COMER Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:50 PM Because we weren't allowed to be Irish for so long |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,Den at work Date: 07 Jun 00 - 03:10 PM I'd just like to state quite catagorically, here and now that I have never seen Frank's dictum. Den (in my best Paisley voice). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Mooh Date: 07 Jun 00 - 03:14 PM In spite of the English? What was that movie where an Irishman would only join the Scots if he got to kill the English? Great line, well delivered. A Canadian so Canadian, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,Den at work Date: 07 Jun 00 - 03:17 PM That was the character Stephen in Braveheart. Den |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Ebbie Date: 07 Jun 00 - 03:24 PM Gracious! Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: paddymac Date: 07 Jun 00 - 03:30 PM Certainly from Norman times onward, but likely prior to that as well, there has been the expression of various newcomers (invaders) becomming "more Irish than the Irish themselves". Depending on the observor, that could/would be said as either a compliment or epithet. At the usual risk of speaking in general terms, the Irish people tend to be a gregarious and genial lot, and their culture reflects that. The inverse relationship is probably also true to some extent. I hasten to add that the same can be and should be said for many other cultural/ethnic groups around the globe. There's likely more than a few theses, dissertations, books, symposia, etc, etc lurking within any serious exploration of the whys of such things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: TerriM Date: 07 Jun 00 - 04:08 PM 20 penalty points and 10 Hail Marys for being such a stirrer, Frank! :) Actually, if no nationality were like themselves, there couldn't be any bigotry, could there ( says she, stirring the pot a little more)? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,Soupcat Date: 07 Jun 00 - 04:11 PM I'd say it has a lot to do with a simple lifestyle wherby the only care a man has, is the bread on the table and the pint of stout at the weekend's and sure if you can slip one or two in during the week all the better!!! Other countries lifestyles are much too complicated and serious....but I'm sad to say chaps that Ireland is changing...becoming very work orientated in this new tech climate and if we don't be careful we'll lose that well-developed sense of history as seen through 800-year-old eyes... that ebbie talks about. Just my threepence worth... Soupcat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: MMario Date: 07 Jun 00 - 04:12 PM Terri - bigotry respects no boundary's. It will ALWAYS find some sort of outlet. But I have it on good authority the Irish are NOT Irish. They are actually SWEDISH! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Wesley S Date: 07 Jun 00 - 04:20 PM Why are Mudcatters so Muddy?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Jon Freeman Date: 07 Jun 00 - 04:24 PM Well MMario, there certainly was a Scandinvian influence. Even the other side of the Irish sea, in Wales where I live, if I look out of the window of my flat, I see a hill called the Great Orme and not to far from me there is the Little Orme. I believe Orme is something like old Norse for serpent or dragon. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Jun 00 - 05:32 PM Right then Frank. I'm taking this thread seriously.
"What is it with these fellas from North Tipp?"
"Why do all Welsh women sing flat?"
"Why do dogs taste better than cats?"
"Is there folk after death?"
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST Date: 07 Jun 00 - 05:34 PM Mario??? sounds itralian to me. There are two kinds of people in this world, The Irish and those who wish they were. :} Dan
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:00 PM Dan? That's some kind of Japanese martial arts thing isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: keltcgrasshoppper Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:08 PM Well I have it from the source that the Irish aren't really Irish they are Italian.. all of Europe is Italian...KGH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: SeanM Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:13 PM OK... that's it... the Penultimate Why Are Thread has been invoked.
And of course, the answer: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:19 PM Why are people the way they are? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: JedMarum Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:22 PM what's the difference between a duck? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Mbo Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:24 PM "When they ask me 'What are the people like here?' I always respond 'The same as everywhere else!'" --Goethe |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: SeanM Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:24 PM Whoopsie... my eternal wisdom lacked a "y". Damn omnipotence fails me again... *BG* M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:34 PM I read somewhere that Poland was Russia's Ireland. I, being of Polish extraction, was extremely flattered. It explained my affinity for the music, customs, culture and whiskey. And red haired Colleen's (it describes my wife quite well, although she is Scottish not Irish, in part, but that's another story). Ta |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Ebbie Date: 07 Jun 00 - 08:59 PM I do believe I'm being made game of. Good thing I didn't post what I first wrote! B ol' G Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: alison Date: 07 Jun 00 - 09:40 PM It's all the potatoes... if you eat enough... you start to develop a brogue...... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Big Mick Date: 07 Jun 00 - 09:41 PM It is my considered opinion...........and I want you to know that I pondered this at great length............and while I was sittin' by the pond ponderin', I of course had a couple of creamy pints, cause ponderin' just ain't ponderin without a bit of Uncle Arthur's finest................and I only do pond's because my kidneys couldn't take lakerin' of lougherin'..........that the Oirish are so Oirish because McGrath sez so. And after I sang his condom song publically, against his sage advice, I learned that one never ignores Frank McGrath's advice. For those of you wondering what the hell his song is about, you will have to do a forum search for one of the funniest bit of Mudcat punnery ever. All the best, Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Big Mick Date: 07 Jun 00 - 09:53 PM Oh, yes, ..............would someone pass me the spuds...........dat's praties for the bog jumpers among ye.......LOL Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Duane D. Date: 07 Jun 00 - 10:22 PM Sure, and what's wrong with the Irish being so Irish, anyway??? Would you rather have them so bloody English??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: jimbozales Date: 07 Jun 00 - 10:29 PM hello, i'm not irish but ive got an irish friend that's having a 30th party...any irish traditions i could do or use for a surprise for him? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: alison Date: 07 Jun 00 - 10:36 PM invite the priest!! *grin* or make some Irish food........ i was given a great pavlova one time for St Pats... the meringue was bright green so was the cream and it was topped with green grapes and kiwi fruit... alll in the shape of a shamrock!! better make sure he's not allergic to green food dye.... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Racer Date: 08 Jun 00 - 12:29 AM I think it is the damned folk music. I got into the folk music, and as a result, I got into the history, the culture, and eventually the language (which I'm slowly trying to teach myself). With a litle research, I found out that my family has a considerable amount of Irish blood (more than half). The name changes kind of screwed me up at first. The American attitude toward the Irish during the 1800s has cost a lot of people of their heritage I'm sure. Just as an aside, Jeneane Garafalo, the second most cynical comedian I know of (Dennis Leary being the first) said that all of the good things everyone says about Ireland is true. After being there for a few days, she looked out of her window and said, "Oh God, not another fucking rainbow!" This is according to her comedy show. She really liked the place. --CS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,JTT Date: 08 Jun 00 - 04:15 AM People are like the people they live with, as I realise every time I see the Americans flooding into Ireland for the summer holidays, dressed in their colourful native costume and speaking in their charming drawl. Ireland doesn't have such a simple life any more: we're now the largest software exporter in the world, for example. Everyone is *like* their culture. The French are tout tout Francais, the Virginians are deeply Vuhginyan, ma'yum, the New Yorkers are...well, need I go on? I reat my case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 08 Jun 00 - 04:55 AM According to the press, Madonna now craves the Vile Black Stuff. Do you think she'll now do for Mother McCree what she did to American Pie (and what only father McCree had done to her previously)? Maybe her next video will see her trying Irish step dancing... I can imagine the lyrics of her next song: "Are you pleased to see me or is that a shilleleh etc"? My Irish grandfather remained "Irish" (whatever that is!) despite being born in India and spending all his adult life in Birmingham. Whereas I, despite 4 years in Wales and 30 years in the soft South, remain a Brummie stuck in the '50s. Go figure! RtS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Gary T Date: 08 Jun 00 - 06:09 AM Jed Marum has raised the only truly significant question in this thread, to wit: what's the difference between a duck?. The answer, of course, is "one leg is not both the same." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Brendy Date: 08 Jun 00 - 06:22 AM To answer Jed, and you, Gary. One of it's legs is both the same |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Jun 00 - 08:30 AM I couldn't give a duck meself either way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Fiolar Date: 08 Jun 00 - 01:20 PM You lot are all mad Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: TerriM Date: 08 Jun 00 - 02:03 PM That's it....every single one of you, out of the Gene Pool!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: black walnut Date: 08 Jun 00 - 02:10 PM My grandfather on my dad's side was from Dublin. He stowed away on a boat, with a friend of his, at the ripe old age of 14, and settled in Canada. He dropped the O' from the front of his last name, to fit in better, I guess, or so they couldn't find his parents.... His wife was English, and the other two are of German decent, but for some reason (could it be the last name I inherited from the Dublin Grandpa?) I feel more strongly Irish than anything else. It was inevitable that I would end up with a Celtic harp and tin whistle along life's road..... ~black walnut |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: DADGBE Date: 08 Jun 00 - 02:35 PM For Blacky O'Walnut and the other assorted nuts on this thread: "The Irish, taken as a race, are much slower than a formula 1 grand prix; not unlike the Slovenes in this regard. Along with other peoples who crossed the great Arctic land bridge without paying the toll, they settled in parts of Central America and the Bronx..." from Professer Norman Conquest's germinal work, "Who They Is And Who Cares" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: black walnut Date: 08 Jun 00 - 04:22 PM ! ~o'nut |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Jun 00 - 04:43 PM Tilda O'Nut is it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: black walnut Date: 08 Jun 00 - 04:47 PM Matilda, but you can call me ~.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: JulieF Date: 08 Jun 00 - 05:23 PM Having been with my half- Irish man for 18 years last Christmas ( I still remember the table we met under) I recognise the traits of setting the world to rights ( especially after a drink), working to a specific "Irish time", any excuse for a party, will say yes to help anybody ( even if it mucks the rest of the family's plans), the tendancy for the mind to wander when you are trying to tie down times any earlier than about ten minutes in advance , a passionate nature, family arguments ( we've had all three generations going at once) and even quicker end of areguments and progression to other things. I'ld tell you why the Irish are so Irish. They have to be to balance out all us sensible, door Scots. - And it seems to work quuite well. Julie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhranplayer..............) Date: 08 Jun 00 - 05:30 PM I think Neil Comer has hit it on the head Rich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Irish Rover Date: 08 Jun 00 - 05:55 PM Because we want to be, if yez don't like it, step up and tiz a skelt-in-the-ear-ye'll-be-hayin' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: sophocleese Date: 08 Jun 00 - 06:50 PM JulieF, those are Irish traits? I don't know if my family has any Irish them in whatsoever but you described one of my brothers. He's the one playing congas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Den Date: 08 Jun 00 - 10:47 PM "Is there anyone out there with any Irish in them...is there anyone out there would like a bit more Irish in them," quote, unquote Phil Lynott, Den |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,JulieF Date: 09 Jun 00 - 08:53 AM I don't know it the traits I mentioned were universal - but they certainly fit quite a few people I know in the Irish community. In much the same way as many of my attributes tend to fit the dour Scot. Then again you should meet my father - dour Scot to a tee. Julie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: JedMarum Date: 09 Jun 00 - 09:05 AM JulieF - thank you for painting some of my best traits in a positive light. Now, if I could just get my wife to see it your way! There is a wonderfuk book out called, How the Irish Saved Civlization ... it explains many of these traits as genetic and cultural from way, way back. Marvelous book.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: TerriM Date: 09 Jun 00 - 02:31 PM you mean all my delightful little ways and eccentricities are due to my nationality??? Oh,boy, gotta get the family to read this one! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 12 Jun 00 - 05:46 AM Why did the duck cross the sea to Ireland? For the quack! RtS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,Crazy Eddie Date: 12 Jun 00 - 10:27 AM Well McGrath of Harlow, Will ya look at the trouble you're after causin' now? I told ya before "Tis a bad day for the Gaels when the ducks are in the nettles!" but I might as well be a dog barkin'! Nice try to all those who tried to say it's genetics, but I'm afrad that's a mistaken belief. Creationism is at the root of it, and here's the way of it.......................................... Himself went missing for a week or so, and when he got back to heaven, the Archangel Gabriel asked him where He'd been. "Well Gabe" says he, "I've just created a marvellous world, come here & have a look." "See the deep blue oceans, teeming with life, and the pristine snowy mountain tops where life is scarce. Notice the beauty, & the balance." "Hmmm" says tha Archangel (who wasn't easily impressed). "And notice, these rainforests, warm, wet, full of life, and the beautiful desert, dry and harsh, both beautiful, and balanced." "Well yess..." said Gabriel. "And over here to the west of this temperate continent, I have made a special Island. There are no snakes, or other bothersome pests, the landscape is green and beautiful. I have peopled it with special folk. They will be philosophers, poets, & playwrights, dreamers, & romantics. They will be kind & care-free. Their songs & music will be known worldwide. See how beautiful it all is" "Oh yes", says Gabriel, "beautiful indeed, but what about the balance?" "YOU FORGOT ABOUT THE BALANCE" "Not so" says God, "Just take a look at the kind of neighbours I've given them!" :o) Eddie! [Only slaggin'] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Lanfranc Date: 12 Jun 00 - 07:26 PM From where I sit, there's bugger all "kind and care-free" about the IRA, or any of the other angry murderous sectarian acronyms that have come out of that beautiful land. It's the glorification in song of murder and retaliation that appalls me. The "peace process" (what next - mushy peace?) is a sham - the prosecution of terrorism by other means. OK, the English are far from blameless, but I do not know of an English song that glorifies the jailors of Bobby Sands, or the executors of Roddie McCorley, nor any anti-Irish song for that matter. And this despite the carnage of the last forty years. "... and list while I sing, for the love of one's country is a terrible thing. It banishes fear with the speed of a flame, and makes us all part of the Patriot Game" And that was written by an Irishman!
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Brendy Date: 13 Jun 00 - 05:27 AM Just be glad, Alan, that this 'peace process' will probably make 'where you sit' a lot safer in future. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 13 Jun 00 - 03:34 PM Brendy, I do hope and pray that you are right, but we've just had another blast, and at a site chosen to remind us how conscious of history some can be. Fortunately there were no casualties, but we are not being allowed to rest easy yet. It only takes a few, of course, and at some stage, what happens must become the actions of the equivalent of the man currently in court for private enterprise bombing, but if it is claimed to be the IRA in some form or other, only the Irish can deny that it is. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Lanfranc Date: 13 Jun 00 - 06:20 PM I've just remembered an anti-Irish song (well, verse - it's also anti- Welsh, Scots, French and basically anyone "foreign") - Flanders & Swann's song with the chorus "The Englsh, The Englsh, The Englsh are best ....." But no-one sings that with hatred in their heart and contempt in their voice in the way that Irish Nationalist songs are often sung. I work in London, and when I think of the IRA, I think of the little girl, waiting in her father's car, who died when the Baltic Exchange bomb went off. I think of the Asian tobacconist who died when the Canary Wharf bomb ripped into his shop. I think of the photographer who died when the building he was in collapsed on top of him in the Bishopsgate bomb explosion. What had they ever done to offend the Irish, that they should die in their cause? Why should the perpetrators of such evil be released early in the name of the "peace process"? Who will write a song in their memory? Could one sing it if someone did without provoking the wrath of Irish Republicans? IRA, UDA, UVF, Provos, "Continuity IRA" - they're not Freedom Fighters, they're murdering thugs, with a religious/political/historical miasma that they try to hide behind. I condemn them before their God and mine, who will judge them at the last, and whose wrath will not be deflected by weasel words. Singing songs in support of them does not and cannot help anyone. I'll sing "She Moves through the Fair", "Danny Boy" or even "Wild Rover", but "Dublin in the Green" or "Back Home in Derry" - never!
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Frank McGrath Date: 13 Jun 00 - 07:03 PM I have only had time to skim through the threads recently and have not been able to contribute but, for this I will make time. The purpose of this thread was to help dissolve some of the hurtfulness that was appearing too frequently in threads of late. I will not comment on specifics within the posting of "Alan Francis". I will however point to it as the one posting here that has "missed to point" completely. May we just have a little fun from time to time without venting spleen? While lively, robust debates are glorious, acid tipped words during jocularity is irksome. So, Alan Francis, give us some of your wit. After all, Alan is an Irish name so you are entitled to join us while we make fun of ourselves. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Big Mick Date: 14 Jun 00 - 01:18 AM Thanks Frank. I was looking for a way to say it, and as usual and in the true manner of the Irish, you have said it better. "Alan", if you want threads that were designed for the "debate" you seem to seek, there are several available that would be appropriate. One is even named "Back Home in Derry". Use super search, find one of those, and post. Then I will respond to your facts, such as they are, and with only one rule. The debate must serve the purpose of understanding. This does not imply that it canna be passionate, but its purpose should serve understanding. Let this thread be what it was meant to be. All the best, Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Brendy Date: 14 Jun 00 - 05:03 AM "...but if it is claimed to be the IRA in some form or other, only the Irish can deny that it is. ..." Penny.S I'm afraid, Penny, the English no longer know who their enemy is. You fail to notice, Penny, and indeed, Alan, that once one kind of civil unrest takes a backseat, other forms take over, and England have a lot of skeletons hidden deep in many cupboards. As for who will write the songs......? Why not yourselves? Back to the question: "Why are the Irish so Irish?" B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: JedMarum Date: 14 Jun 00 - 08:36 AM hoorah, Brendy for the return of humor, to the commentary! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: barrygeo Date: 14 Jun 00 - 09:03 AM It's the weather!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its wet windy and miserable - and this is summer!!! If you dont drink, play music, write poetry etc you go stark raving mad and top yourself. We have evolved to survive the miserable climate :) Keep smiling if you dont like the weather in Ireland just wait 5 minutes!!!! Barrygeo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Frank McGrath Date: 14 Jun 00 - 11:47 AM Deffo, it's the weather. One slight correction barrygeo. We drink, play music, write poetry etc AND go stark raving mad. Life is much more interesting that way. I am proud of my insanity - and, all my friends are quite daft. I am only on nodding aquaintance with sane people - and I feel so sad for them. It must be dreadful to view the world without the colour and variety which madness bestows. The weather. No doubt about it. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Noodles Date: 14 Jun 00 - 01:45 PM Aren't you luckey to have some genetic codes which resonate to the pulse of the irish soil.
The West of Ireland |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Kim C Date: 14 Jun 00 - 03:13 PM Well, somebody has to do it! My gggg-grandmother was a Connoly. Okay, so she was born in Pennsylvania, so what? Her husband was right off the boat from Germany in 1775 and fought in Washington's army. Anyway, here I am, some 200+ years later, and my favorite food groups are beer, cheese and sausage, not necessarily in that order. (here in the south we call 'em TATERS, by the way...) When I was about 20 years old I was terribly in love with an Irishman. But I had to go back to the States and he took off for Australia and we each married someone else. But I have very fond memories of him. Thank God the Irish are Irish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:50 PM I never thought the nail bomb man was IRA - he was in the wrong place. Brixton and Brick Lane proclaimed him to be what he was, one of our racists. he is clearly mad, but unfortunately in a way which merges with a number of people who hold their views to be reasonable and representative of what English thinking should be. I deny that it is, and that it has any right to dictate the lives of the rest of us. The bomb at Hammersmith was different. I was not aware, until the media (and I read the thoughtful sort) revealed that it was one of the first IRA targets in the 20s, and has been hit since as a reminder. That was what I meant about some people being more aware of the history than we always are. (One interesting but irrelevant point that came out was that the local people who were interviewed about the previous explosion were of a totally different class from the present locals.) I imagine that there are people who might use that historical connection to set up the suggestion that a branch of the IRA is still active when they are not, in order to justify some other agenda, but it cannot be ruled out that there might be an Irish splinter group. Unless, as I tried to indicate, people who know better in Ireland come out and state that there isn't. I have stated before that the more I learn about the treatment of the Irish by British governments the more I believe it to have been appalling. I can understand why things have been the way they were. I also understand that the majority of the Irish (wherever) want peace. I was trying to suggest that if that is the case, then eventually, such splinter groups will be of no more political significance than the nail bomber. And I have never done anything, never knowingly voted for anyone who has done anything (that's tricky though) to cause anyone to see me as an enemy. Those who claim that the English, simply by accident of birth, must bear the sins of those who were not even their fathers.... I'm not going to finish that. I do try to understand the negative influences ion the Irish. I was enjoying this thread. I thought it worth backing what you said, while recognising why Alan said what he said. I agree with Big Mick. This isn't the thread. My aunt believed my great grandfather was Irish because of the dancing he did in the pub. It's not enough to trade on, so I was keeping out. I'm sorry I didn't. And Alan, if you're still around, it is no more a good idea to hold grudges based on the actions of a few Irish as it is to do the same for a few English. And my brother in law still carries the cloud of one explosion himself. Read the way these people are. They are not the IRA. They may be republicans, but so might you be in a different place at a different time. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Lanfranc Date: 14 Jun 00 - 06:56 PM OK. rebukes accepted. Back to Flanders and Swann and to Phil Ochs dictum that you can make a hard point better with a laugh. I had a sense of humour failure, and abused the Mudcat ethos for a debate that I feel rather strongly about.The Hammersmith bomb has wakened a lot of fears that we had hoped were laid to rest. Once again we see policemen with sub-machine guns at their side on the streets of London - it's just not right, somehow. There is no doubt there are skeletons in the English cupboard, some still rotting in their chains. However, to deny the dark side of any nation, tribe or family is to blinker oneself to reality. So, my Hibernian friends, flaunt your Hiberniousity, but please, leave your guns and bombs behind if you can, especially when you sing! Is it possible to de-refresh a thread or part of a thread? Or, like the moving finger of Omar Khayyam, is it written there forever? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,rebecca Date: 14 Jun 00 - 10:35 PM First of all, I want to applaud the maturity with which some of the things that were written were handled. This is a very sore subject, on both sides of the pond, and I am glad that it was calmed down before it got ugly. I am half Irish from my mother's side. Her family came over during the Potato Famine. I was never very interested in my heritage until I started digging into the legends and myths which led to the music and eventually the history. Especially in the music did you find the soul of the Irish. The Irish are deeply religious, be it orange or green (for all of you that don't know what that means, that's Protestant or Catholic). There is a deep sense of history which should be evident from the above conversation. Instead of elephants, maybe the saying should go "The Irish never forget" because they don't. History premeates everything in Ireland. Then there is a deep feeling of national and cultural pride, a feeling, coupled with outrage over past English treatment, that has led to the current troubles. The Irish were under British control (some would say oppression) for 773 years from 1175 to 1948. That's a long time, made even more unbearable by the things that the British did over the centuries. The Irish never forgot that. So many people died to free Ireland and although it officially gained its independence in 1948, many still feel that Ireland isn't totally free because Northern Ireland is still under British control. As well, the English tried to destroy Irish culture which is probably why the Irish cling to it so tightly, even today. Above all, I think that it's having the soul of Ireland. Many foreigners, including the Vikings and the Normans settled in Ireland and became "more Irish than the Irish," especially in the case of the Normans who blended into the Irish populace and became part of it. As well, many families who are originally of English or Scottish decent are loyal to Ireland as well as the crown. And then there are people of Irish descent who now live outside of Ireland who are Irish to their soul despite the distance between them and Ireland or a mixed heritage. Being Irish is about soul more than anything else. There was a story that I was once told that I think illustrates this point. A priest was attending to a young Irishman who was dying of wounds. "Do you find it hard to die?" the priest asked. "Yes," the young soldier replied. "But not as hard as leaving Ireland." That is the soul of it. Am I proud of my heritage and my homeland? Yes. Do I support the efforts of the IRA and other terrorist organizations that hurt innocent people? A resounding NO. I hope and pray for peace. But even as I do that, I know the reasons why these groups are fighting. But that doesn't make it right. And so I can say with a clear concenious ERIN GO BRAGH!! IRELAND FOREVER!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Brendy Date: 15 Jun 00 - 02:37 AM "So, my Hibernian friends, flaunt your Hiberniousity, but please, leave your guns and bombs behind if you can, especially when you sing! " This I would like an explanation of, Alan, if you don't mind. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Frank McGrath Date: 15 Jun 00 - 05:10 AM All credit is due to Alan Francis. Despite the few comments following your opening line you took your medicine like a man (sorry! - PERSON). Unfortunately, when I sing, most listeners wish they had guns and bombs. They have to make do with heckles and insults that effect me not a whit. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Szarak Date: 15 Jun 00 - 08:07 AM Hi, very interesting conversation indeed. In my opinion it quite simple: the land, the history, lot of magic - the main reason. In fact, I was born in Poland, my ancestors lived in Poland for centuries, I've never been to Ireland, but I am IRISH. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: MartinRyan Date: 15 Jun 00 - 10:25 AM Alan So well you might sing "The Wild Rover" and "Off to Dublin in the Green" - they both started life in England! Regards p.s. Keep smiling! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 15 Jun 00 - 10:59 AM Perhaps someone could explain why, last night (when I really need my sleep) I had an utterly Irish, or at least Celtic dream, very detailed and well plotted (I thought in it) - most details forgotten, but it involved a bunch of very dangerous horsemen riding over moors, someone who might well have been the equivalent of the Queen of Elfland, and her cohorts, switching between an ancient version of this world and the other one, some Christian relic that was really older, and a guy called Eoghain. I didn't hear that one, sort of saw it spelled out through a synesthetic process. I woke up before the end - urghh, like the film broke before the end of the reel - and couldn't get back in. So what does Eoghain mean? Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: alison Date: 15 Jun 00 - 11:18 AM It's roughly prounounced as Owen, (could also be Eugene).... according to my book of Irish children's names "Eoghan, Owen (Eugene), an ancient and rather common Irish name, explained as meaning "well-born": though this may be because of it's association with Eugene, which is from Gr. Eugenios "noble, well-born"; Eugene is, in fact the usual anglicisation. Eoghaini/n, (Oynie) is a diminutive." Personally I'd rather be whisked off into the sunset by an Owen rather than a Eugene (unless it was Gene Kelly *grin*) do you know anyone called Owen? slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,ray Date: 15 Jun 00 - 11:19 AM I'LL BE PLAYING TONIGHT IN TRALEE,CO KERRY, FOR ALL THOSE WODERFUL TOURISTS LOOKING FOR THAT IRISH THING CALLED THE CRAIC{ PRONOUNCED CRACK ].the notice board says we start at 9 but we never start before 9.45,which is 9ISH,SO WHERE DOES THE IR COME FROM? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Big Mick Date: 15 Jun 00 - 12:10 PM Well done, Alan. Ray, get a website. LOL Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Penny S. Date: 15 Jun 00 - 05:03 PM No Owens, alison. Though that approaches a password to something one i didn't choose. I think it may have been from a book. Though the story wasn't. Penny
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Jed at Work Date: 15 Jun 00 - 05:48 PM wish I could be there Ray - let us know how it goes!! I'll look you up when I make it out there next year! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Big Mick Date: 15 Jun 00 - 07:37 PM Hey Ray, I just reread the thread and didn't like the way my comment looked. It was meant to be humorous, but I am afraid it may not have come off that way. So if you were offended, I'm sorry. Have a great bit o' the craic, and knock 'em dead. All the best, Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jun 00 - 08:10 PM Eoghen - one of family of names that John belongs to; though you could also say it's a version of Hugh; but then Hugh's really one of the names in that family.
But then, since it looks a bit like Eugene, that's been used as a way of putting Eoghen into English; and vice versa.
And Sean, Shane or Shaun is another way of putting John into Irish. Except that it's really just an Irish way of writing and Irish way if saying the English John.
Since I'm a Kevin, my name isn't a version of any other name from English or Latin or whatever. Though there are any number of ways writing it in Irish, each one stranger than the one before it - Coemhghen for example.
It's an Irish thing...
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,barry Date: 15 Jun 00 - 08:15 PM Well people,as someone pointed out above, we almost lost our culture and that is why we hold it so dear today As for the English,read the history. YOU CAN NOT RULE HALF THE WORLD BY BEING NICE TO PEOPLE. Barry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,ray Date: 15 Jun 00 - 08:29 PM the craic was 90 jed.accordian,flute,self on guitar and vocals.no p.a.managedto get a couple of pints in on the way home. that sounds definite.the house shuold be finished by then |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST Date: 15 Jun 00 - 08:51 PM no problem mick.90 as a benchmark? 85.knock is the irish word for hill ( cnoc ).i cant think of anything for em dead.i'll ask around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,ray Date: 15 Jun 00 - 08:53 PM no problem mick.90 as a benchmark? 85.knock is the irish word for hill ( cnoc ).i cant think of anything for em dead.i'll ask around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST Date: 15 Jun 00 - 09:05 PM no problem mick.90 as a benchmark ?.85.knock is the irish word for hill (cnoc).em dead ! i'll ask around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: GUEST,ray Date: 15 Jun 00 - 09:22 PM OOPS. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: barrygeo Date: 16 Jun 00 - 07:39 AM Is there a difference between the Irish at home and the Irish abroad. I think so!! I have numerous relations living over seas. I was lucky enough to be able to stay in IReland. Those that have emigrated many years ago still visualize IReland as it was 25 years ago. In fact times have changed dramatically here. 97% of people in the Republic of IReland voted for the peace process but I suspect the voting pattern might be different among the diaspora. Any Comments Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: barrygeo Date: 16 Jun 00 - 07:57 AM ALAN or other English/British readers. Apologies in advance for getting serious but here is a thought for you. Have you ever considered that the so-called 'Irish Problem' is in fact a 'British' problem. I live in the Republic of Ireland where there has been very minimal terrorist activity. The minority support for and tolerance of IRA violence is thankfully dwindling rapidly. It seems to me that most of the atrocities are commited on 'British controlled land' by people resident in Britain. I feel its a bit unfair therefore that you would make a comment asking the Irish to leave their bombs behind. I understand the pain, death and damage caused by the violence but it did not eminate from my country but internally within your own. We see a similar double take by English sports commentators, for instance, if Darren Clarke was to win this weeks US Open he would be the British golfer but if he fails to qualify he is Irish or an Ulsterman. Please don't tar us all with the same brush
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Brendy Date: 16 Jun 00 - 08:21 AM Just as we wont accuse him, Barry, of coming over here and wrecking Landsdowne Road at football internationals. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are the Irish so Irish? From: Songster Bob Date: 16 Jun 00 - 01:20 PM Why are the Irish so Irish? Two answers: If you're pro-Irish, it's 'cause they had first choice. If you're anti-Irish, they had last choice. Bob Clayton |