What is a Folk Song?

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 12:16 PM

That's certainly one way of lookin' at it.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Bert
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 12:19 PM

Well Captain Birdseye, that wipes out about 90% of my song list.

I guess that we now need a definition for "What we sing".

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 01:07 PM

just keep on singing.but not in the rain.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 01:17 PM

Bert, IMHO the Cap'n is right. But I imagine he thought it went without saying that you can sing exactly what you like, and the fact that a song is not a folk song dies not in any way make it inferior.

I did suggest on another thread that we could call stuff in the style of folk but not meeting the defintion "neofolk" or "nu-folk" - sort of like "new country" or "nu-metal", but the horse brigade came out in force.

What I don't understand is why, if they think (as I think they think) that the word has no meaning, they are so vehement that what they do falls within a different definition that is somehow the "correct" definition.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 01:45 PM

My take on the 1954 definition (cut n paste job from the John Lennon thread):-

"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has evolved through the process of oral transmission"..."...music that has been evolved...by a community uninfluenced by popular and arts music".

This being the case, it would follow that new folk songs can only be created in cultures where music playing/recording technology is wholly absent; and furthermore untouched by mass popular culture.

Um, I think that only leaves the interior of Papua New Guinea and maybe the remoter parts of the Amazon rainforest...not a very positive prognosis for the continued existence of a living folk tradition in the Western world!

Here endeth the lesson.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Bert
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 03:24 PM

The trouble that I have with the "oral tradition - uninfluenced" bit is that it excludes any song that has been written since writing was invented and also any song that has been written since people have been singing.

Because once writing was invented, people have been writing down songs. And since people have been singing together there must have been songs that were popular.

But we are never going to win over the pedantic crowd so we need to find a definition of our own.

I think we need to poll folk clubs and ask them to list the songs that were sung at their last meeting. This will tell us what songs are being sung that WE think are acceptable as folk songs.

Then we can think up out own name for them.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 07:51 PM

Refresh, so that you can discuss your definition here and not clutter up the other thread.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 08:05 PM

Songs that have been created since the invention of writing may not have to excluded from "the 1954 definition," but anything sung or heard since the development of recording technology is definitely excluded.

I think that anyone alive today who believes that their favorite music is in any way "purer" or more "free of modern influence" than anything else is pretty much kidding themselves.

Of course, I have no problem with anyone having different tastes and standards from anyone else. But let's be real, and admit that the influence of recorded music ~ including, of course, recordings of traditional singing, both commercial and acacdemic ~ is part of everyone's experience today.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 07:01 AM

A very interesting book which attempts to explore the nature of oral culture and the effects of literacy on such a culture is David Buchan's 'The Ballad and the Folk' (first pub. 1972 by Routledge & Kegan Paul; repub. by Tuckwell Press, 1997).

The book takes for its example the ballad tradition of North East Scotland. Certain aspects of its thesis are necessarily speculative and controversial but it provides plenty of food for thought all the same.

I wonder if there's an equivalent (American?) book which looks at the effects of commercial recording technology on a 'traditional' culture (in the rural South of mid-twentieth century North America perhaps?).

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,The Singing Horse
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 10:03 AM

"Refresh, so that you can discuss your definition here and not clutter up the other thread"...

Methinks the horse definitioners are gettin' a bit uppity, y'all!

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 10:29 AM

"The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character".

This statement has been misrepresented in the past by various people focusing on the "composed" and ignoring the "unchanged". What then of Webber's May Song or Parting Song, or of John Connolly's Fiddlers Green? Both have seen variation, both have been passed on orally in many cases (despite the fact that several recordings exist, some people still learn songs the old way)? Purists will tell us that these are not folk songs... I beg to differ.

Further, the 1954 definition is arbitrary and imperfect, in my view, fashioned with the knowledge of the day and does not pass the test of time. The moment a collector records a source singer, the oral-transmission cycle is broken (something the definition conveniently, but erroneously, ignores); this shows the arbitrariness of the "oral" rule.

But any definition that uses external trappings to define a social process is bound to be anchored to the time of its making and hence imperfect. It's like trying to describe dance as "the synchronous movement of body and limbs to the rhythm of accompanying mysic" - i.e. bollocks (think of marching, for example). Folk and its meanings are only expressed by the externalisations, and should not be defined by them.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 02:41 PM

"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission...etc..etc..."

I wonder how long it took'em to make this up?

Charlotte (busy tossing out alot of my sheet music)

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 11:39 AM

one of my own compositions, The Battle of Bosworth Field,I know has changed.[but that is not the sole consideration in determining whether it is a folksong].
I am not sure how important the changing is in defining whether it is a folksong or not.[why should it even be adetermining factor?]
if we look at the melodies of English Irish Scottish and Appalachian songs,they are in four different modes.,Dorian,Mixolydian,Aeolian and Ionian,therefore if we wrote a new song,to make it sound authentic a melody from thse modes. would be appropriate[amelody from the locrian mode would not sound authentic].,but to use this philosophy limits thecomposers melodic scope.
then we come to lyrics,should we write in a style associated with a previous century.
if I might quote Brian Peters from another thread
Subject: RE: Folk clubs - what is being sung
From: Brian Peters - PM
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 02:10 PM

>> "...depends on how well they are written" . This suggests to me that you are saying that "traditional" songs are inherently better than "modern" songs, except where you think that isn't the case? <<

I won't presume to speak for Jim, but perhaps what he meant was "depends on how well they succeed in mimicking traditional style" - which would assume that the writer was actually trying to make the song sound 'traditional' (and that depends on what we mean by 'traditional' - but let's not go there just now). Personally I would hope that someone with plenty of experience of the genre could spot a modern attempt to compose a song in the style of a Child Ballad, or indeed of a 19th-century English lyrical song - a modern composer would find it awkward to use the same kind of language, for a start. However, if you want an example of a modern song that did convince me, try Dave Webber's "Bonnet and Shawl", which is a dead ringer for a traditional song. His "Lady of Autumn", though, didn't fool me for a minute (and that's not to pass a value judgement on either). 'Bring Us A Barrel', another song often quoted as 'sounding traditional', would have deceived my ears twenty years ago, but having spent all the intervening period looking at the old songs, I doubt that it would if I heard it for the first time now.

The songs of Leon Rosselson and Jim Woodland, to name but two, don't sound remotely traditional, but are great songs fully deserving a hearing in folk clubs. My own tastes would still prefer traditional songs to be in the majority, though.[end of quote]
http:www//dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 12:44 PM

We are not a horse definitioner. We have never (knowingly) defined a horse.

HOARSE definitioner, on the other hand...

(spent most of the day putting a new song through it's paces, and have blasted my vocal chords...)

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 12:50 PM

Poor Old Hoarse

Charlotte (out in the fields)

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:00 PM

"...years of much abuse", indeed! I must stop blagging cigarettes off strangers whenever I've had a couple of beers...

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:01 PM

One thing I'd like to know - how do we explain to future generations why no folksongs were created in the 20th century?

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:08 PM

"how do we explain to future generations why no folksongs were created in the 20th century?"

by the 1954 definition.etc..etc there were none written


The Transports - Peter bellamy

or Richard Thompson and Dave Swarbrick.

The

Farewell, Farewell
Crazy Man Michael

Walk Awhile
Sloth
Doctor of Physick

the list is pretty nrear endless when you start to think about it.

Charlotte (they work for me, in the genre)

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:21 PM

....ah well they MIGHT be folk songs but no one will know until we are all dead. (as long as no one who can, read, write or has a CD/ MP3/ Record player has heard them or played them).

Paul

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:40 PM

"One thing I'd like to know - how do we explain to future generations why no folksongs were created in the 20th century?"

This MUST be a joke, right?

I doubt anybody SERIOUSLY believes that folk music is only formed free from recording technology, input from popular culture etc; because, like the Flat Earth movement, this flies in the face of reason, evidence and common sense. Those who claim otherwise can reasonably be supposed to do so for their own nefarious and exclusivist purposes, and thankfully only constitute a small minority even in folk clubs. A pity their influence on the direction (or rather lack thereof) of the folk "scene" as a whole (in the UK, at least) is rather disproportionate...it doesn't do much for awareness of/enthusiasm for our indigenous musical forms (including traditional folk song).

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 02:02 PM

"Those who claim otherwise can reasonably be supposed to do so for their own nefarious and exclusivist purposes ..."

"...nefarious and exclusivist purposes"! Now what might those be?

One of the reasons why I tend to insist on the 1954 definition is because I would prefer it if the music I love is not 'colonised' by rock and pop music - which I can hear anywhere (often whether I want to hear it or not!). I suppose this could be interpreted as "exclusivist" (by the uncharitable) ... but "nefarious"?!

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 02:47 PM

"how do we explain to future generations why no folksongs were created in the 20th century?"

Perhaps by pointing out that, on account of the penetration of the mass media into all aspects of the everyday lives of the general populace, no such thing as folksong (in the sense it used to be understood) exists at all, at least in that part of the world sometimes referred to as 'The West'. The sad fact is that scarcely anyone sings any more (we had the football chant debate on another thread, thanks). Not songs by Richard Thompson or Peter Bellamy, not Dylan or Donovan, not even the works John Lennon.

If we choose to define 'folksong' as 'that which is sung in folk clubs' then of course the rules change.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 03:00 PM

"The sad fact is that scarcely anyone sings any more"

I think someone used a line in a song that had very similar sentiments to this....

Charlotte (thinking on Ma and Pa's piano stool

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 04:03 PM

Brian, you started a trail of thought in my migraine-box: Like you, I often bemoan the fact that "people just don't sing any more", yet we both know some people who sing, a precious few. And I wonder: Is the ratio of singers vs passive listeners that much different now, from the past?

Surely not every ploughboy was vocally gifted, not every market gardener or flock-tender. Those (few?) that were, were sought after and asked to do their bit when occasion arose, and the majority (? I am guessing of course) simply enjoyed listening to them.

Yes, there has been a tendency towards manufactured music (famous line of a Harvey Andrews' young admirer: "was this song you sang yours, or was it proper music, on CD and that...?". Yes, most people are embarassed to sing today, and they are made to think that to be a singer you have to look good, wear bling and such. But vocalisation of one's feelings is too close to the surface as a skill to be suppressed for long. So perhaps, just perhaps, my (and your) doomsaying is off the mark.

Perhaps a song like Nizlopi's JCB one, born of personal experience and echoing the sentiments of listeners, when it is sung by youngsters on the return of a coach trip, is simply undergoing a sort of "folk process". It may not be what you and I would call a "folk song" because it does not match the prototypes of form or structure we have in our minds/experience, but then, how much does our opinion matter on the subject? It's a cliche, but "this thing is bigger than both of us"...(the folk process, I mean).

Perhaps we are too close and inspecting the trees, to appreciate the wood - even as rainforests are disappearing (beat that for mixing metaphors!). Or to quote a great 20th century philosopher: "It could be folk, Brian, but not as we know it!"

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 04:48 PM

My experience tells me,many youngsters today who play instruments,Do not sing. I find this bizarre,particuarly if the pupil wishes to learn the Guitar,but it is the case here in this part of Ireland.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Bert
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:15 PM

...most people are embarassed to sing today...

Haven't you watched American Idol George;-)

People are singing today. When I was a kid it would be at a party at home or around a piano in the pub.

Now it's Karaoke and Open Mics. But folks are still out there singing even though these venues don't fit the 1954 definition.

The songs that they remember and sing to their kids will be the folksongs of the future.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:21 PM

Captain, I don't necessarily agree. I know quite a bunch of younger musicians (in several genres), who play and sing. Usually guitar, but sometimes as is the case of a friend of mine, sings and plays trombone!

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:37 PM

I don't disagree, Bert, and it doesn't invalidate the argument. I was referring to the majority, such as we have seen in "the Choir" recently. And perhaps the non-singing ones were always a majority anyway. But some people DO sing - which is where we agree.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:47 PM

George,
There's a wonderful scene in the Watersons film 'Travelling For A Living", showing a scene from a pub in Hull during the 1960s, in which the entire clientele is indulging in a rip-roaring sing- song. Like Bert, I can remember several pubs in the East End of London, and one or two in North Manchester, which during the 1970s still employed a pianist - and where folk in the room would sometimes feel moved to join in . My grandmother sang songs (mostly hymns, admittedly, but she did know several verses to 'Cosher Bailey's Engine', which I'm told is a real folksong)) around the house all the time. My Mum and Dad sang a lot for their own amusement, too. As Peter Bellamy remarked in the 1980s, in an article on our present topic, lots of people as late as the 60s used to sing or whistle about their everyday work. My parents' generation went regularly to chapel and sang their hearts out. I didn't but was still expected to sing hymns at school assembly.

I would suggest that all of this has disappeared. We still have football chants, vestiges of children's playground rhymes, and songs at a few surviving rural socials such as shepherds' meets, and also the village carolling in Yorkshire (although whether the locals outnumber travelling folkies is a moot point). News reports, meanwhile, bemoan the fact that parents no longer sing nursery rhymes to their children.

I too have doubts about whether every ploughboy knew scores of old ballads, but I suspect that many rural and urban people knew and sang at least some songs, a hundred years ago. Flora Thompson wrote about agricultural communities singing in the fields. During my short experience of a production line in the 1970s, we were piped Radio 1 at high volume. No opportunity for work songs there.

I must plead ignorance of 'JCB', but I do remember that several years ago, the case was made regularly that 'Yellow Submarine' was a modern folksong because people would sing it spontaneously. My feeling was that many people could and indeed did sing the seven-word chorus, but that only a tiny number would know the lyrics to even one verse. And my kids would scarcely recognize 'Yellow Submarine' forty years down the line.

George has already answered Bert's point about 'American Idol' - that it's is about self-promotion, not informal or communal entertainment, and it's goldfish bowl TV, not a participatory mass movement. Karaoke, though an interesting social phenomenon, is part of the same thing. I'd be more inclined to accept karaoke as modern folksong if the singers didn't require a prompter.

Songwriters like George, who compose finely crafted and heartfelt songs, may well find their work absorbed by the folksong community - a self-selected body that still holds dear the unquestionable value of singing for fun - in a way analagous to what some of us call 'the traditional process'. But with all due respect, I don't think I'm ever going to hear the window cleaner singing one from the top of his ladder.

I would love to know which songs Bert believes will be "the folksongs of the future".

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 07:20 PM

"...I would prefer it if the music I love is not 'colonised' by rock and pop music".

Me too. But I would also prefer it if the music I love (probably far closer to yours than you realise) was listened to and understood by more than just a handful of aging baby boomers, and thus was given an opportunity to survive and flourish beyond their passing.

(Then again, does any of this ultimately matter? It does to me, though frankly at times I wish it didn't.)

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Bert
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:48 AM

The comment about American Idol was that the people don't seem at all embarassed.

Brian, the best karaoke singers don't really need the prompter.

Didn't we have a thread recently about what would be the folksongs of the future?

While we can't accurately predict the future, I wouldn't be surprised if "Ride Sally Ride", "Johnny be Good" and "American Pie" ended up there.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 04:42 AM

>> Didn't we have a thread recently about what would be the folksongs of the future? <<

Very probably. I must look it up sometime; I daresay someone will have mentioned 'Happy Birthday', which is one song that - through its association with a specific celebration - continues to be passed orally down the generations. A fine example of a folk song, notwithstanding that we know the composer.

>> I wouldn't be surprised if "Ride Sally Ride", "Johnny be Good" and "American Pie" ended up there. <<

But again, how many people not into karaoke or a covers band could sing a single verse of any of those - particularly 'American Pie', which has a memorable chorus but pretty complicated verses? And those songs are at most fifty years old.

Many old pop songs retain widespread familiarity - for now, at least - because they're continually recycled by the nostalgia industry, appearances in film soundtracks and - most spectacularly if bizarrely - the annual churning out of the 1970s / 80s Christmas Soundtrack. But there again, although my kids are familiar to the point of exhaustion with 'Merry Christmas Everybodee', how many of my generation or theirs could actually sing any more than the chorus and maybe that single line about hanging up the stocking? We are forced passively to listen to those songs - no-one has adopted them as their own, in the way that several generations cherished 'Barbara Allen' or 'The Farmer's Boy'.

G2G - back to those Child Ballads.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Nikkiwi
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 05:02 AM

going back to the 1954 definition for a moment...

"The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."

Does this mean that a song like "Stairway to Heaven" (Led Zep) which has been covered god knows how many times, each in its own way (including once on a wobbleboard) DOES qualify as folk music, as it has been refashioned and re-created by the community???

Just a thought (both on folk music and the dangers of tying oneself to a definition)

Nikkiwi

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 05:07 AM

Do Rolf Harris and a bunch of covers bands constitute "the community"?

Trying to define things is fraught with danger, but without definitions words are meaningless and we can't communicate at all.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 05:18 AM

Oh, and secondly, for "Stairway" to be considered 'folk music' would require a degree of creative re-invention going beyond the (admittedly inspired) substitution of Jimmy Page by a wobble-board.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 05:30 AM

There are some that would claim that the whole Led Zep CD catalogue were folk songs if Eliza had done a wee on them. Some of us apply different definitions.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 05:44 AM

"The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."

The problem with this is that the changes come about as the song is passed down through the aural tradition. It is learnt from singers within the community, not from the orginal. This can only happen if someone learns it in the first place; someone who thinks "That's a good song. I'll have that". The Plains of Waterloo must have been a contemporary song less than 200 years ago.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 06:22 AM

Liam, I never heard anyone "claim that the whole Led Zep CD catalogue were folk songs if Eliza had done a wee on them". I have seen many people with chips on their shoulders, though.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 06:56 AM

irishenglish
Captain, I don't necessarily agree. I know quite a bunch of younger musicians (in several genres), who play and sing. Usually guitar, but sometimes as is the case of a friend of mine, sings and plays trombone!

If he's singing, where does he stick the trombone to play it :-)

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 08:18 AM

"But I would also prefer it if the music I love (probably far closer to yours than you realise) was listened to and understood by more than just a handful of aging baby boomers, and thus was given an opportunity to survive and flourish beyond their passing."

This is, I suppose, a worthy sentiment. But I'm not sure that it will be achieved by adulteration or dilution.

On the other hand when I decided, way back when, that I enjoyed listening to traditional songs and would like to try singing them myself, my primary motive was not to ensure their survival. If the survival of the songs is a by-product of my interest, then good, but if they don't survive then I doubt that anything that I could do, say or write will make an iota of difference. The forces invoked in the following quote by Brian Peter's, when responding to the question of why no folk songs were created in the 20th Century, are probably much more relevant:

"Perhaps by pointing out that, on account of the penetration of the mass media into all aspects of the everyday lives of the general populace, no such thing as folksong (in the sense it used to be understood) exists at all, at least in that part of the world sometimes referred to as 'The West'."

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 09:08 AM

...and can I add to Shimrod's comment the observation that very few of us sing traditional songs because we feel some obligation to preserve them (please note, all those of you like to introduce terms like 'aspic', 'museum curator', or even 'pedant' into the discussion). While I'm of course delighted that the interest of several of our most talented young performers should ensure their survival for another generation or so yet, the only proper reason for singing the old songs is because they're great songs. They have beautiful melodies and simple yet poetic lyrics, they speak of real life (give or take the odd dragon), they can move us to tears or laughter, and they can make the hairs rise on our necks. That's why we sing them.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 09:34 AM

I sing traditional songs,because I enjoy them.
They are also the songs that I think I perform best.
I do include a few songs in my repertoire that are self penned or other peoples composed songs.,but approximately ninety per cent of my material is traditional.
for my own amusement at home I sometimes sing a few blues etc.I believe that if people want to categorise me,it would not be inappropriate to call me a folksinger,have a listen to some samples at my website and make up your own minds.itwould not be appropriate to callme a Jazzsinger. http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Suegorgeous
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 09:50 AM

Dragons are not real life??!! :0 Are we inhabiting different worlds? :)

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 11:52 AM

"...the only proper reason for singing the old songs is because they're great songs. They have beautiful melodies and simple yet poetic lyrics, they speak of real life (give or take the odd dragon), they can move us to tears or laughter, and they can make the hairs rise on our necks."

I'm in 100 % agreement with this statement. It can also equally be applied to the very best of those songs written here in recent years, be they popular or even not-so-popular. If the distinctive characteristics of a folk song are a beautiful melody, poetic lyrics, realism and emotional resonance, it follows that all songs displaying these characteristics are folk songs. It really is that simple. We define all other musical genres primarily by what they sound like, not by what some guy SAID they were and weren't some time in the middle of the last century; and it is reasonable to do the same with folk. This isn't dilution or adulteration, it's called logic!

I still can't believe anybody really thinks that no folk songs were created in the twentieth century...and yet here I am, taking the bait- doh!

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,Suegorgeous
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 12:04 PM

... and yet....one tiny problem with that, Gene.....how we all gonna agree on what's beautiful, poetic, and what resonates emotionally? those things are subjective, thus different for everyone...I can see yet more endless threads!! :)

Sue
(on me work comp)

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 12:49 PM

Well, it's obvious...I say what is and isn't, and everybody else follows...(chortle)

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 12:53 PM

songs that folks sing...right?

Charlotte (one of the folks)

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 12:56 PM

Neigh!

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:04 PM

>> If the distinctive characteristics of a folk song are a beautiful melody, poetic lyrics, realism and emotional resonance, it follows that all songs displaying these characteristics are folk songs. It really is that simple.... it's called logic! <<

There is a basic logical flaw in the above. It's like saying that, because a cat has four legs and a tail, it follows that all creatures with four legs and a tail are cats. My neighbour's dog, however, still goes bow-wow and prefers bones to fish. Those characteristics are not the whole story.

At the risk of repeating what others have pointed out on various previous Mudcat threads, the word 'folksong' has changed its meaning substantially since 1954. It *used to* describe the 'songs of the folk', which were the result of certain definable processes of transmission and evolution. From the 1960s onwards, it became used commonly to describe the compositions of songwriters (Dylan, Seeger, Paxton, insert your choice of name here) writing in a genre approximating to a particular kind of North American tradition-based style. Through common usage, the term 'folksong' and 'folksinger' became so associated with what we now call 'singer-songwriters' that its definition became forever blurred, if not changed out of all recognition. Nothing intrinsically wrong about that - popular usage the way language evolves. But it did make it more difficult to talk about the thing which had previously owned exclusive rights to the term 'folksong' - which is why people started calling *that* kind of song 'traditional' instead. Just so other people would know what they were talking about.

>> We define all other musical genres primarily by what they sound like <<

Even if we are to ignore the importance of 'folk process', the songs of Dylan, of Ewan MacColl, of Jez Lowe, of George Papavgeris and all the other talented writers out there, don't actually sound very much like the songs that (for example) Cecil Sharp collected in either Somerset or the Appalachian Mountains, if you listen to them at all carefully. New and old songs can both have beautiful melodies or engaging lyrics, but they're different kinds of melodies and lyrics. Two different things, that by historical accident have co-existed (often quite happily) on the stages of folk clubs for fifty years. And to differentiate between them is not to pronounce a value judgement.

Subject: RE: What is a Folk Song?
From: GUEST,The Mole Carcher's Apprentice
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:18 PM

"Neigh!"

I said what I said pretty much, in think, in the same vein that Louis Armstrong said what he said, about never hearing a horse sing

Charlotte(nay, I say nay, in ever decreasing circles)