Difference between fiddle and violin

Subject: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Marion
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:09 AM

OK, so what's the difference between a fiddle and a violin? Or between a fiddler and a violinist? Or between fiddle music and violin music?

I know it's basically about repertoire - classical vs. folk music - but I'd like to know what other differences there may be. A fiddler once told me (only partly joking, I think), that I should get rid of my shoulder rest and stop cleaning the rosin off my fiddle because these habits make me look like a sissy-ass violinist. Is he right?

My Cape Bretoner fiddle teacher always plays with his fiddle leaning on his chest, not on his shoulder. But another student told me that he (the student) had tried to take our teacher's picture playing and he refused to be photographed in that position, and insisted on holding it up on his shoulder for the picture. One of those things that make you go hmm..

Marion

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:21 AM

I think that there has been a long discussion on this - even in the short time I've been contributing. No doubt someone wiser than I will provide a link.

According to my daughter - a fiddle is something that you play in pubs and the violin is played in the orchestra and hers changes miracously in the car between venues.

Julie

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: BanjoRay
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:31 AM

Afriend of mine who plays some really good guitar has a daughter who used to play violin in a local chamber orchestra. My friend tried to teach her a few fiddle tunes, and she came back from an orchestra rehearsal saying that the conductor had noticed her style changing in a way that made it obvious she'd been fiddling, and that she had to stop it or forget playing violin!
It's frightening!
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Brendy
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:33 AM

The difference is the state of mind.

B.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:41 AM

I'm surprised that she had that response from the orchestra - Cat has done both for years without too many problems. She had watched her violin teacher playing fiddle tunes and said that he just wasn't loose enough.

Julie

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: SDShad
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:47 AM

Fortunately, the orchestra conductor/violin teacher at the University hear is a New Zealander with a passion for Scottish fiddle tunes in addition to his impressive classical repertoire. When he was teaching our foster daughter violin, he gave her the option one semester of most of her exercises being fiddle tunes that he picked out for her.

Didn't have to twist her arm much.

But God I just cringe when I hear supposedly educated people demonstrating their ignorance like the conductor in your tale, BanjoRay.

Shad

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:51 AM

We did have a really interesting discussion earlier this year. Without putting the kabosh on this one, you may also find this one of interest: blue clicky thingie.

katwhogrewupwithboth&thoughtthatwasnormal**BG**

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: BanjoRay
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:51 AM

Its nice to know there are human violinists out there!
Ray

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Mark Clark
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:26 AM

The difference? One is a VYE-oh-LYNN and the other is a VAH-lynn. I've found that symphony players most often refer to their instrument as a fiddle while educators and music schollars say VYE-oh-LYNN.

Clearly these are the same instrument used for somewhat different pusposes. The only physical difference you would notice is that the fiddle bridge is made with less arch to facilitate the bow crossings unique to fiddling and fiddlers often use metal or compound string instead of gut.

The foklksey things some fiddle players do such as allow rosin to build up on the belly or drop rattlesnake rattles into the instrument are more effective in aiding the fiddlers persona than the sound produced. The best fiddlers keep their instruments clean and free of debris. It's also common among the better fiddlers to use one of the shoulder support attachments that really keep the instrument away from the players body and a chin rest that arches over the bridge and does not touch the belly of the instrument.

As for BanjoRay's conductor, I'm sure there is some truth in what he said. The only performer I can think of who could play convincingly in both modes was Yeudi Menuin although some of the Gypsy violinists may manage it. If people have examples of others, please share them.

Cheers,

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Alice
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:27 AM

BanjoRay, as opposed to what? If you want to see a real story about violinists, watch "Music of the Heart", about teaching violin in Harlem schools.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:33 AM

All violins are fiddles. Not all fiddles are violins. T.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Mbo
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:33 AM

Well, Mark O'Connor, at his music camps, teaches kids how to play cool stuff like Black Sabbath on their violins. If violin=classical, and fiddle=folk, the what is metal on a violin? How 'bout Bowdaxe?

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:37 AM

Yes - What classification could we give to Nigel Kennedy's Hendrix album ?

Julie

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:38 AM

A lot of the difference is in technique, and some in set up. As mentioned above, bridge height and shape, and type of strings are the usual differences. My orchestra violin was in the shop once, and I took my steel strng fiddle to rehearsal. Conductor nearly had heart failure--used the mute the whole rehearsal, and promised NEVER NEVER to play the steels in concert.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: BanjoRay
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:44 AM

Yehudi Menuhin was a great violinist, Mark but a terrible fiddler (IMHO). When he did that LP with Stephan Grappelly, he sounded really wooden. I suspect Grappelly had to write out all Menuhin's part for him. Mind you , he had the immense job of trying to swing to the same standard as Grappelly who was truly unique.
cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Mbo
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:52 AM

Wow, I'd like to try gut strings one time! My violin/fiddle/bowdaxe is strung with vintage 1960's Black Diamond (yeah, I know) so it sounds pretty grungy in any style.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Mark Clark
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:58 AM

I confess I've not heard the recording Menuhin made with Stefan Grapelli. I don't doubt what you say so... scratch Yehudi. There are now no performers I'm aware of who convincingly move between the two modes of playing. Although you might convince me that Mark O'Connor is capable of doing it.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Gary T
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 02:51 PM

Mark, if I recall correctly, Mark O'Connor did something like that at Winfield several years ago. Played one set just tearing up that fiddle (as well as guitar and mandolin, I believe), had people raving about that hot fiddling. Then, in his next set (the one I made), he got mellow and played mostly classical-sounding stuff. I'm sure he did a good job of it, but most of the audience probably would have preferred the bluegrass-type stuff to the classical-type (including me--I was bored).

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 03:12 PM

One is the Devil's intrument.

The other isn't.

Art

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 03:25 PM

One burns hotter, the other burns longer...

{~`

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: sophocleese
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 04:19 PM

You could check out the group Puirt a Baroque. David Greenberg is the violin/fiddle player there. He's classically trained and accepted by the Cape Breton fiddlers.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: bob jr
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 04:25 PM

um another differance is you can "fiddle about" but if you try and do the same thing with a violin you look foolish

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 04:26 PM

Art, it's not the Devil's instrument, remember, it's the Angels' strings! ;)

What I always tell people is, the instrument itself is basically the same except for certain things that individual players adjust(i.e., the bridge height thing and type of strings), and that it's mostly repertoire, style and technique. My teacher (who plays both)has pointed out to me things that "violinists" do that "fiddlers" usually don't ----- usually this is just technical stuff.

Now, me, I consider myself a fiddler, but as I am still learning new things, I am doing some work out of a violin technique book. It's been very helpful but I don't have any aspirations of playing in the orchestra.

I generally do play with a shoulder rest; otherwise I use my left hand too much for holding up the fiddle. I bought a taller chin rest which makes it easier to forgo the shoulder rest now and then. Last time I saw John Hartford he was playing with a shoulder rest. I doubt anyone would give him a hard time about it.

And you should ALWAYS clean the rosin off your fiddle unless you want it to eat a hole in the finish!

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: scouse
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 04:51 PM

The word Fiddle comes from the German Violin Maker Fiedler.I'm pretty sure that was his name and he used to make copies of Stradivi's violins and pass them off as genuine articles,hence over a period of time people who played cheapo Violins their instruments were called Fiddles and they became a Fiddlers.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: zander (inactive)
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 05:29 PM

I once heard the difference described as simply that a violin is a derogatory name for a fiddle. Regards, Dave

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Mbo
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 05:32 PM

Gary, I'd have rather heard Mark play the classical music, or more yet, the Black Sabbath..."Paranoid" was the particular song.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: GUEST,Jerica
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 07:39 PM

You know, that the word fiddle actually came from the Irish gaelic "fidil" that was around in 700AD, and remarkably the fidil looked alot like some copy Stradivarius made centuries later. HMMMM.....

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: rangeroger
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 08:00 PM

Itshak Perlmann calls his Stradivarius a fiddle.
rr

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: MarkS
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 09:12 PM

Difference between a fiddle and a violin? About $5,000.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: MichaelM
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 09:53 PM

Difference between a fiddle and a violin? About $ 30 an hour.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: GUEST,Jimmy.C.
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 09:59 PM

The difference between a fiddle and a violin is that the music form the violin goes to your ears, while fiddle music goes to your feet.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: keltcgrasshoppper
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:09 PM

Well said..Try and listen to Natalie MacMaster, Ashley MacIsac, or Richard Wood and not want to get up and dance..A fiddle played is for dancing!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: GUEST,Kathy
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:38 PM

The biggest difference is in the spelling.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: GUEST,Alex
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 10:46 PM

Somebody (may have been Art) said that the main difference is that nobody minds if you spill beer on a fiddle.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:09 PM

People always ask me he difference between a Vase and a Vaaauuuz ( I'm a potter) and I have always answered " Oh about $50.00".<><><> Sorry for the intrution I hope someone found this funny. All the best, Guy

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: JenEllen
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:37 PM

Jeez Guy, you need to get out more..LOL

I agree with the 'heart and sole' connection. 'Violin' music sets me on the edge of the chair, and I have to remind myself to breathe sometimes....but 'Fiddle' music couldn't keep me seated for anything.

~Elle

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Rollo
Date: 16 Jun 00 - 11:44 PM

I just used one of my "books of useless knowledge" which told me in the 16th century the "viole" was develloped in italy as a member of the fiddle family, and a violin is a small member of the viole family. The words "viole" and "Fidelle" are quite close together. So a "violin" seems just a special form of a fiddle. And fiddles come along in quite a lot of form.

According to a fiddler who once was a violinist her conductor bade her to stop on one of both, because she was pressing the bow to the strings too hard since she started playing folk tunes. She just couldn't play soft enough for that big band they called orchestra. They might have heard her.

So I suppose there is a fiddler in every violinist who wants to come out... lets help 'em. Burn the met and build a giant alehouse with a half acre dance floor and a desk 100 feet long.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 17 Jun 00 - 12:28 AM

The word "fiddle" even predates "violin." The name "Fidl" can be traced back a few centuries before the Italians in the 18th Century perfected it into a violin. On the subject of crossover musicians, Laura Risk is a very good example of a fiddler who is well versed in classical and fiddle styles. She sounds like a classical player when playing classical, and a fiddler when playing fiddle music, and has a deep understanding of classical, Scottish, and old-timey styles. She's not as famous as Mark O'connor but she's an incredibly talented musician.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jun 00 - 01:17 AM

I don't know Laura Risk, but if she can cross over between classical and folk, she must be an exceptional fiddle player. I managed symphony orchestras for several years and have an appreciation for both folk, and classical. Few (but there were a few) classically trained violinists have, I believe, the "feel" for playing folk music. I think it may be taught out of them. We did have one viola player who could crossover pretty well, but the majority of the string players could not.

Mark O'Connor performed a violin concerto last year with the Phoenix Symphony and he has appeared with several other symphony orchestras and the musicians have tremendous respect for him. I believe he composed the Concerto.

DougR

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 17 Jun 00 - 02:43 AM

Doug R -

Laura Risk has had the advantage of getting involved in classical training and folk music at around the same time, and of having some great teachers and role models in fiddling such as Alasdair Fraser, Buddy MacMaster, Bruce Molsky. It IS rare to find a musician who can so thoroughly absorb different ways of playing. She has that rare gift.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jun 00 - 10:33 AM

We used to say that you carry a violin in a plush lined case and a fiddle in a gunny sack.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Crowhugger
Date: 17 Jun 00 - 10:46 AM

Mbo,

Talk to someone who's tried to keep gut strings in tune before you part with the cash for your very own nightmare. If you want to play in tune you'll need to be able to micro-adjust your finger positions every time the temperature and moisture content of the strings changes, wich is just about every time you touch them. It's part of the "charm" of period instruments.

CH.

Subject: RE: Difference between fiddle and violin
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Jun 00 - 12:15 PM

True, real gut strings are an absolute booger to keep in tune, but the good quality Perlon core strings sound "almost" the same, and are easier to tune. Try Thomastik dominants or Helicores.