Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'

Subject: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Grab
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 07:20 AM

There's a shanty called 'Chicken on a Raft' (and no, it's not 'Chicken in a Bucket', b4 anyone comes up with that :-) which we're learning. If there's any shantymen around, could you give me a hand, please?

Does anyone know what the meanings of some of the bits in it are? I've a feeling there's typos in the Digitrad version (line 3 of the chorus is written down as "Dabtoes forward and the dustman aft", which I think should be "last man" instead of "dustman"). But what are "dabtoes"? Recording of the Young Tradition singing it sounds more like "dabtails", but that doesn't make any more sense, unless it's the name of a particular bit of rigging. And what is a "chicken on a raft" in the first place (and why's it such a terrible sight on a Monday morning)?

"Pusser's shower" I understand - the "pusser" being the purser, who's notoriously tight-fisted.

Thanks to anyone who can get any more info on this.

Grab.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 07:28 AM

I always thought chicken on a raft was a poached egg on toast?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 07:43 AM

Nope, those aren't typos. "Chicken on a Raft" was written by Cyril Tawney, Brit sub-mariner and British Navy seamusic scholar and collector (see his book _Grey Funnel Lines_).

"Dabtoes" and "dustmen" are Navy colloquialisms for various clean-up jobs. (And unfortunately, I'm not really awake yet so I can't give you the exact job titles.) The dabtoes, I think, are swabbing the deck and the dustmen throwing trash off the aft.

Chicken on a raft is poached eggs on toast.
Go to the source. Most of Tawney's songs are full of Brit Navy (the real "Grey Funnel Line") jargon.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: AndyG
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 08:20 AM

Chicken on a Raft = Fried Egg on Toast
Jimmy = Jimmy-the-One = 1st lieutenant
Comic Cuts = Orders (possibly QR&AI ?), (originally WWI British Army jargon for Divisional Orders)
Dabtoes = seamen (not specialist ratings)
Dustmen = Engine Room specialist ratings (originally stokers)
middle, forenoon = watches
Whalin' crew = Whaler's Crew / Whaler = Ship's boat
pusser = purser

(Donny-B I'm not sure about)

AndyG

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Grab
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 08:29 AM

Thanks for the help Bat Goddess, that's cleared that up! Didn't realise it was such a recent song (reference to "pulling on a whaling crew" made me think it was older). Still, I guess if it's written in a 'traditional' style then it'll sound that way regardless.

Spose I'll have to dig out some books about Navy lingo if I'm going to do any more like that. A quick search on Google for Cyril Tawny comes up with a fair selection of books and CDs.

Cheers again.

Grab.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Grab
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 08:32 AM

Many thanks AndyG, too.

Grab.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Willie-O
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 08:44 AM

And a chicken on a raft on a Monday morning is a terrible sight to see because, whether poached or fried, it is _not_ what your hangover wants to see--as you start a new week in your tin can abode.

Another Royal Navy delicacy that might not be fit for sore eyes and weak stomachs is stewed tomatoes on toast--known as a "train wreck".

Info gleaned long ago from Lou Killen, an authority on Tawney.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 10:27 AM

Thanks to Andy G. for the list of definitions. I could have gotten them right if I had been able to consult my sources, namely my husband, Tom Hall.

Heard Lou Killen do a couple Tawney songs last Saturday--having to explain the terminology took almost as long as the song, sometimes.

Tawney is pretty amazing when it comes to writing music "in the tradition" -- take "Five Foot Flirt", his tribute to the music hall style.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: AndyG
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 11:01 AM

Bat Goddess,

Perhaps you can help with the quiz at the end of this song then ?

CYRIL SAID IT ALL BEFORE.

My answers (8):
Grey Funnel Line
Sally Free and Easy
The Oggie Man
A Lean and Unwashed (tippy) Tiffie
I'm in the Sidings Now
Five Foot Flirt
Sammy's Bar
Diesel and Shale

AndyG

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 11:19 AM

The original Comic Cuts was a children's comic, launched by Alfred Harmsworth in 1890 and enormously popular at the time the term entered Service slang.  It ran until 1953.  Cyril wrote Chicken on a Raft in 1958 as a "mock" shanty, largely to use up bits of part-written songs that seemed too good to waste but didn't fit anywhere else!

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 12:04 PM

For Andy's quiz: Here is a version of 'Cyril said it all before' with the quiz solutions in CAPS. The only one you didn't have, Andy, is from an additional verse not (yet) in Mudcat. Great job.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: zander (inactive)
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 02:44 PM

Chicken on a Raft is a fried egg on fried bread according to Cyril, who wrote it.

Regards, dace

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: zander (inactive)
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 02:44 PM

Chicken on a Raft is a fried egg on fried bread according to Cyril, who wrote it.

Regards, dave

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: wildlone
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 02:48 PM

My Uncle was in the Royal during the last war,
He served on board many ships including the Rodney and the Trinidad.
The Oggy or Pasty he used to buy from a seller at the Devonport Dockyard gates after a run ashore came in two sizes the four oared oggy and the six oared oggy
Cyril would have known this man who gave up selling somtime after the war I believe.
Cyril wrote Diesel and Shale as there had never been a shanty for submarine's before.
SHALE is shale oil a lubricant that did not smell very nice.
If "Train Wreck" put you off how about S**t on a Shingle, Minced [or ground] beef on toast

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 02:58 PM

When I first heard Chicken on a Raft I thought it was a reference to naval cannibalism. You know, adrift in a raft, draw straws to see who's for breakfast. I was rather disappointed to learn the real meaning.

A mondegreen I can't get out of my mind is "The Grey Flannel Line."

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MMario
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 03:08 PM

Isn't "The Gray Flannel Line" a parody about a bunch of lawyers on a cruise?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 04:16 PM

Chicken on a raft is much less nauseous making than creamed / chipped beef on toast. We seamen of limited vocabulary called it "creamed foreskins" on toast.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Margo
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 05:41 PM

As I understand it, the "Chicken on a Raft" was egg on toast but deep fried long before the breakfast hour so that when the sailor sat down to eat the fat had congealed and it was very unappetizing. Hence the "terrible sight to see".

Also, I think DABTOES was the nickname for the greenhorn sailor who would trip over the metal bolts sticking up out of the deck.Margo

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 06:12 PM

also about the song....a lot of people who sing it these days hold the note on 'aft' ...

"dabtoes forward and the dustmen affffffffft"... for 4 beats.......

but when Tawney was here in Wash DC, USA about 17-18 years ago, he profesed surprise...said he sure didn't write it that way:meant it to be sung with just a normal beat..not that he was upset, just bemused...

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 07:32 PM

The Young Tradition (Peter Bellamy, Royston Wood & Heather Wood) introduced that held note.  Most people who sing Chicken on a Raft learnt it -at some remove- from their recording.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MarkS
Date: 21 Jun 00 - 07:58 PM

Recall the dabtoes sat forward and the dustmen aft because the various specialties aboard ship tended to sit (as well as bunk and work) together.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,jack penman
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 02:06 AM

DonnyB: Donnybristle in Fifeshire I think, not far from Rosyth dockyard

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 05:23 AM

Wasn't The Grey Flannel Line composed by L.L. Bean?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: rock chick
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 06:13 PM

Thanks radriand (Richard)

Next time I hear that song it may have more meaning to me. We all get into pissy moods, no need for apologies, but they are accepted anyway. The info you gave me is intresting, I'll look out for some of his songs and you never know, I may... just may become a fan?

rc (Shelagh)

If you received this message more than once ops!! sorry but I seem to be having trouble tonight with the computor

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 05:53 PM

Damn! I always thought "chicken on a raft" was the weevil that crawled out of the stale ship's biscuit when it was floated on water (for that purpose) Much more romantic - but where on earth did I get it from?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Jock Morris
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 05:28 PM

Another similar concoction was devilled kidneys on toast -> Shit on a raft.

Scott

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Margo
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 05:30 PM

Hmmmm.... sounds like the American S.O.S.; shit on a shingle. Actually chipped beef on toast. Is it that bad? Or is it just the way it looks?

Subject: Chicken on a raft
From: Arnie
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 10:36 AM

Chicken on a raft is a great Cyril Tawney shanty and I keep meaning to try it at my local FC but some clever sod is bound to ask me what it means. So, any idea why there's a chicken on a raft? (maybe it's the marine equivalent of chicken in basket?) And what's a dabtoe? Any offers gratefully rec'd as ever...

Subject: RE: Chicken on a raft
From: Hawker
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 10:38 AM

It's mariners speak for Egg on taost - The egg is the chicken and the raft is the toast
Hope it goes down well!
Regards, Lucy

Subject: RE: Chicken on a raft
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 10:43 AM

see old thread: Meaning of chicken on a raft

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Chicken on a raft
From: Arnie
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:07 AM

Thanks Hawker and Wolfgang. I should have known there'd be a previous thread on the subject - there usually is! Anyway, the thread has explained everything I need to know and more, so I now have no excuse but to go for it! The difficult part (as ever) will be educating the audience to join in on their bits - you just can't sing a shanty by yourself!!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: NH Dave
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 03:42 PM

SOS, American Military (originally) slang for Creamed Beef on Toast was just a nickname, drawn from the idea of some mystery sauce on a slab of toast.

Properly made, it can be tasty, although like other local delicacies it IS an acquired taste.

Old time military types would go down the chow line getting eggs, home-fries (chunked up bits of previously cooked potatoes that have been refried), toast, grits (in the south), and the beef-in-gravy over the lot.

Sort of binds everything together.

Dave

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 03:58 PM

A sailor's Comic Cuts is his personal file, record of service, misdemeanors etc.
Just a cuckoo in another man's nest,
Keith

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Nemesis
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:52 PM

We have C-o-a-R in our repertoire filched from YT - and I have to say that the change of timing (whatever) on that line dabtoes forward does lend itself naturally to the opportunity for doing some really interesting harmonies.

Cyril is at Horsham Sussex, Folk Club on 18 NOv - apparently about the only date in this area.

Subject: RE: Chicken on a raft
From: 53
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:14 PM

never heard of that expression.

Subject: RE: Chicken on a raft
From: ddw
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:42 PM

53, I gotta hand it to you. You're the only person I've seen in two and a half years on Mudcat who will keep a dead thread alive to trumpet his ignorance.....

david

BTW — maybe nobody told you, but it's not mandatory to post to every thread you open.....

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,John Gray/Australia
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:43 PM

Yeah, dustmen, or dusties, are stokers. So named because they were covered in coal dust. The nickname sticks to this day even though ships are Diesel or gas turbine powered. I was a stoker in the 60's/70's. We knew tomato au gratin as train smash but my favorite for breakfast was always sauteed kidneys, or, as we called them, piss strainers.
In this, and a couple other posts, the navy slang " a run ashore " has been mentioned but with no clarification. It is not going ashore to run around. It is the term used by sailors for going ashore to partake of alcoholic refreshments. Instead of saying, let's go ashore, go to the pub, and get stuck into booze, it was, let's go for a run ashore. If it was for shopping, usually in a duty free port, it became, let's go for a rabbit run. A rabbit was a present for the folks back home.

JG / FME.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From:
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:52 PM

One thing that always mystified other service types was the concept of a liberty boat having to be alongside before you could go ashore from a stone frigate,

Pete M

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:38 AM

I only had time to skim all this but I didnl;t see what I was looking for--

CONCLUSION: must have been in another thread.

In a thread that included DABTOES in the last year or so, there was a link to a nautical glossary of all these fun terms.....

~S~

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:48 AM

Just a point of interest---once heard Cyril on radio congratulating Lonnie Donnegan "on the best version of "Sammy's Bar" he'd heard done'. Lonnie did it in 3/4 time.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: wildlone
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:30 PM

Guest John Gray/OZ
In the Royal, rabbit/rabbiting is also what the sailors got up to if they "pulled" on a run.

dave

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:51 PM

Just a little thread creep here. Diner slang for eggs here in the states is cackleberries. In days gone by, if a customer wanted two scrambled eggs, the waitress would shout 'Two cackleberries, wreck 'em,' to the short order cook.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Dunc
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:41 PM

A complete list of all 'traditional' Royal Naval slang can be found the the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship.
The old port Admiral for Rosyth Naval Base in Scotland had a huge house at Donnibristle (Donny-B)5 miles east of the dockyard. The house (which now falls within the town of Dalgety Bay)was gutted and rebuilt about eight years ago as luxury flats.
There is a connection with Donibristle House and The Bonny Earl of Murray. There were a set of spectacular wrought iron gates with the crest of the Earl of Murray in front of Donny-B House.
I was walking my dog past them one Sunday morning and said 'Hello' to some men carrying out some work on them. A few days later I read in the local newspaper that they had been stolen - by the friendly workmen.
Dunc

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,Pauline
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 02:22 PM

Archie Tawney goes to the Opendoor Folk Club each week so I'll ask him this week for you.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 05:56 PM

Here's the Grey Flannel Line (a sewing shantey by Carol Tawney, "discovered" by Vikki Appleton Fielden:

I work my shift, day after day
Sew thermal undies, all in grey
Perhaps pyjamas, now and then
But then it's back to kecks again
It's one more day on the grey flannel line

Don't mind the grain nor an open seam
A button fly never worries me
But the dullest time in a boring day
Is to watch the knickers roll away
It's one more day on the grey flannel line

No silks or satins do I sew
Them pants and vests, they come and go
Even when corsets roll on by
It's still so boring I could cry
Just one more stay on the grey flannel line

Oh Lord, if dreams were only real
I'd get my hands on some satin teal
Make racy shreds to help me score
And work the grey flannel line no more

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Bernard
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 06:36 AM

Archie Tawney's 'official' answer - boiled egg on fried bread. The fried bread goes soggy whilst waiting for the boiled egg... and he should know!

Archie sings quite a few of his brother's songs up at the Open Door in Failsworth, and plenty of other stuff, too. Well worth the visit!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 05:23 AM

This song reminds me of the first meal of the week on my base. Not as bad as chicken on a raft, but what a sight greeted your eyes. What a brilliant writer Tawney was.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:31 AM

Who is Archie Tawney then ?

According to Cyril in the notes to his album ' Sally Free and Easy,

Dabtoes = seamen
dustmen = stokers
chicken on a raft = fried egg on fried bread

OK, eric

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 06:37 AM

His brother one assumes.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 04:45 PM

Probably a matter of regional differences, but the way I've always heard it:

Chicken on a raft = creamed chicken on toast.

S**t on a shingle = creamed chipped beef on toast.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 09:00 PM

Another definition of "rabbiting" says that anything you can take out of the Dockyard gate, or over the wall, is yours to keep.
In other words, theft of naval property.
Colyn

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 06 Jun 05 - 01:04 PM

Just seen this thread
yep Archie is Cyril's brother and he sings

Met him at Ashton under Lyne I think it was, that neck of the woods

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,talithamac
Date: 24 May 07 - 03:37 PM

Comic cuts is also a generic term for 'funny papers'--the cartoons that you get in the daily newspapers.

I learned "Chicken on a Raft" when I was working at Mystic Seaport and have been singing it for years. Fantastic song--Cyril is sorely missed.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:57 PM

some years ago I ws at a folk club where Cyril Tawney introduced the song mentioning that he'd heard some kids singing "skinheads on a raft".
When he asked them about it they said it meant baked beans on toast. He was amused at the transformation of his original.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:59 PM

What do you know about my trigger like willie?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:13 PM

Iwas guesting in a folk club, when a floorsinger got up and sang the song as chicken on a rat.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Sugwash
Date: 25 May 07 - 06:02 AM

I served on H M diesel submarines a couple of decades after Cyril, they hadn't changed very much in the intervening years. The breakfasts were certainly still the same:

Chicken on a raft - fried egg on fried bread
Shit on a raft - devilled kidney on fried bread
Elephant's footprints - deep fried spam fritters in batter
Yellow peril - smoked haddock
Spithead pheasant - kippers

If the Russians didn't get us, the cholesterol would!

Dabtoes were still any member of the seaman branch, most of which dwelled in the Forward Mess

I never heard members of the After Mess referred to as dustmen, we were 'back-afties' by my time.

Comic cuts were C240s, a report on his character read to every rating by his Divisional Officer on an annual basis.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Sugwash
Date: 25 May 07 - 06:04 AM

For more info on British diesel submarines and submariners, visit dieselweasel.co.uk Diesel Weasel

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 May 07 - 07:06 AM

Another adaptation of Cyril's original song.

We were in Hungary dancing with Sheffield City Morris. Every meal seemed to be Chicken and Rice. So we sand Hi -o chicken and rice at most meals.

(The vegetarians got rice!!)

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:01 PM

Dabtoes are working seamen; man the guns, haul the ropes, quarterdeck watch etc.   Dustmen are the sailors who collect the refuse, sweep the decks, passage ways, and buff the floors.

All indispensable services for a Naval vessel under way.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 03:12 AM

No. The dustmen were the stokers.
All seamen engaged on housekeeping duties.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,Steve Boehm
Date: 23 Jun 12 - 09:52 AM

I'm surprised to hear that Tawney was surprised to hear the "dustman affffffft" carried out, since he recorded it that way in 1972. See/hear here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce1_Z2x9wKY

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: 2581
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:41 PM

The Mighty Doonans have posted their great version of "Chicken On A Raft" on YouTube! Check out link below:

Chicken On A Raft (Live) - The Mighty Doonans

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:13 PM

I'm surprised to hear that Tawney was surprised to hear the "dustman affffffft" carried out, since he recorded it that way in 1972.

Interesting. To hear he was "surprised" would certainly be incongruous.

Strictly speaking, the 1972 album came out after Young Tradition's. I would speculate that the way YT was doing it had gained so much force that Tawney actually shifted to doing it in that fashion. I've seen this to be the case a few time that chanteyman Stan Hugill learned songs a certain way, which he presented in his 1961 book, but later on, after singers had twisted the songs differently, he seems to have just gone along with what everybody was doing.

I wouldn't be surprised in Tawney was originally perplexed by the drawn out "aft." Because even when I hear YT's rendition, it sounds "off". Nothing wrong with it in itself (it creates interest), but off from the sailor song style that Tawney presumably was following.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 01:02 AM

Whose recording did they use here? -- Chicken on a Raft

Came on this from The Useless Web.

:-)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:47 AM

The Watersons.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:51 AM

No, The Young Tradition.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:40 AM

Quote Sugwash: Chicken on a raft - fried egg on fried bread
Shit on a raft - devilled kidney on fried bread
Elephant's footprints - deep fried spam fritters in batter
Yellow peril - smoked haddock
Spithead pheasant - kippers

We also had 'Pusser's puss' which was custard. Another one was 'Babies' Heads' which were Individual Scottish Meat Pies. 'Beatties' Meaties' in Arbroath. They had a small hole in the middle of a soft crust.

And yes, Cyril, who was an old mate of mine when he lived in Leeds, would insist, "Chicken on a raft is not poached egg on toast, or even fried egg on toast. It's fried egg on fried bread! Proper job!!"

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:54 AM

My Grandad was at sea in WW1 and before.
Babies head was steak and kidney pudding then.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Sugwash
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 07:05 AM

"My Grandad was at sea in WW1 and before.
Babies head was steak and kidney pudding then."

They still were steak and kidney puddings when I last had one in the 90s. More specifically, tinned steak and kidney pudding. Each tin contained two portions; the pudding came out of the tin in cylindrical form and was then sliced in two by the chef. Looking down upon this delicacy reminded one of a small head with the cranium removed, lovely!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 08:15 AM

Cyril, who was an old mate of mine when he lived in Leeds, would insist, "Chicken on a raft is not poached egg on toast, or even fried egg on toast. It's fried egg on fried bread! Proper job!!"
Tone
.,,.

The fact that Cyril wrote the song does not in itself make him the sole or definitive authority on what the phrase meant. I daresay some seamen or crews would use it for fried on toast or poached on toast, even if those Cyril served with used it mainly of fried on fried. Some probably would even have used it for any egg however cooked served on any sort of cooked bread.

That, in case some haven't noticed, is what folklore is ~~ something of which it is unwise to claim an absolutely definitive version, whoever may postulate it.

~M~

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 08:58 AM

I always thought Yellow Peril was scrambled egg made from dehydrated egg powder, a much-dreaded WW2 dish.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 11:04 AM

quote MtheGM: "The fact that Cyril wrote the song does not in itself make him the sole or definitive authority on what the phrase meant."

It does if it's used in Cyril's song and that is what he meant when he wrote it.

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 11:56 AM

How so, Tone? Pray expound as to how the fact that he meant something within a specific context means that no other interpretation is permissible.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 12:18 PM

MtheGM, from the sleeve notes to Cyrils album ' Sally Free and Easy '

Dabtoes = seamen

Dustmen = stokers

Chicken on a raft = fried egg on fried bread.

Do you doubt that is what Cyril meant ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 12:44 PM

About the held phrase:"the dustmen affffffffft"

I did personally hear Tawney make that remark about not writing it that way in about 1980 or so. I can't remember if he added anything about giving up and recording it to suit the public. These days, if you start it, any audience who knows the song will hold the note.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 01:45 PM

From website Naval Scran -----

The Objective of the following list - Is to recall the common names by which various items of food were or are known on the mess deck ...

Chicken on a raft
c.1940 -
c.1970s         Egg on toast

I am perfectly conversant with Cyril's glossary, thank you Bill. My point is that his usage is not definitive ~~ see e.g. the authoratitive source above. Look at the thread title, please. We are discussing the phrase's meaning, not merely one singing seaman's usage of it.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 01:49 PM

Later definition entry in same website

"Raft c.1940 & 1968
        Toast with something on."

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 01:51 PM

Those last two entries addressed to Dave Hanson; can't think why I addressed him as 'Bill'.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 02:58 PM

I think we need a raft of measures to sort you lot out. Heheh. Just wanted to use my favourite cliche, that's all.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:10 PM

You're toast, Shaw!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:31 PM

BTW ~~ This topic has of course been canvassed before. Click on first thread ref'd at top of this one & you will find a correspondence on the subject between Rosemary Tawney and me.

~M~

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 04:23 PM

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 11:56 AM

"How so, Tone? Pray expound as to how the fact that he meant something within a specific context means that no other interpretation is permissible."

I've just written a song with the word 'Wipers' in it, reflecting the WW1 Tommy's pronunciation of the word 'Ypres'. Sleeve notes explain this.

If you came along in ignorance later and said it meant windscreen wipers or wet-wipes, you would be laughably wrong.

You are laughably wrong, and it would appear, pig-headedly stubborn about Cyril's meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'.

Simples

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 04:54 PM

You're toast, Shaw!
Hey, I was just egging you on...

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 05:58 PM

If you really think your merely homophonic Wipers analogy is really comparable to the accepted, documented & established variants in the definition of the phrase which is the subject of this thread, then, Tone, I regret to say that, as the incomparable Jane Austen put it, you are just too stupid to "deserve the compliment of rational opposition". Enjoy your little laugh, dear-❤. I really haven't another moment to waste on your fatuities.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 08:59 PM

I rest my case.

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:31 PM

Whay Cyril Tawney meant by the term when he made that song is one thing. But it does not define the term for others. And it clearly was in wider use at the time, and since, with related but different meanings.

Some people can get heated over the strangest things...

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:49 AM

I rest my case. Tone
.,,.

Quite right. A good long rest is just what it could do with.

☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 07:01 AM

I've taken all the wood panels off my piano and put them in the loft for a few months. I'm resting my tone case.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 07:44 AM

What I intended to say, before I hit the wrong key, was the most widely
accepted meaning is fried egg on fried bread, some people have a different meaning.
The English language in its colloquial form is full of variations of meaning for the same expression.
How many of us clean the house with a hoover mmade by Dyson?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Sugwash
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:24 AM

As the song was written during Cyril's time in the submarine service and was about a submarine (Dabtoes forrard and the dustmen aft), then in, the context of the song, chicken on a raft was fried egg on fried bread.

The galley on a diesel submarine of any class is tiny. There are no facilities for toasting bread in enough quantity to provide for the entire crew. The chefs, therefore, had to deep fry the bread before topping it with a fried egg to produce chicken on a raft. It may have been different on an aircraft carrier, I don't know, I had no experience of those.

During the same period he wrote in Diesel and Shale: 'The big man in Dolphin, he sent for me'. Any Royal Navy submariner could tell you that that refers to Flag Officer Submarines (FOSM), who up until fairly recent times dwelt in HMS Dolphin. If you was so inclined, you could argue that Cyril was referring to a man of above average size, but you'd be wrong.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 12:56 PM

Thanks Sugs. Common sense prevails.

I spent best part of two years on the carrier Victorious (814 sqdn). Chicken on a Raft was still fried egg on fried bread, though few had heard of Cyril Tawney. He was a civvy by then having bought himself out with the proceeds of his TV appearances. He was then kick-starting the folk revival in the West Country based in Guz.

I knew him really well in the 70s and 80s, when I organised his tours of clubs in the north London home county area. He was a mean uckers player too.

Cyril slept in my bed many times, albeit with Rosemary, whilst Annie and I kipped on the lounge floor.

One great uckers occasion was with the late Cyril, the late Johnny Collins, the extant Chris Snook and me, at the late Nigel Matimong's house in Chesham. Three tiffs there. Johnny was never a matelot, but he spent a lot of time in Singapore and knew the rules of uckers. Chris is a civvy, but was an RN groupie then.

And by heck, did we shift some booze.

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Rumncoke
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 07:06 PM

I used to sail past HMS Dolphin - (into Portsmouth harbour, sharp left) - and there was often a submarine charging it's batteries, the diesel engines really did make a background for Sally Free and Easy.

He was a grand chap - I spoke to him about 'rabbiting' from the dockyard - there was a similar tradition of 'ferreting' from the steel works in Sheffield.

Portsmouth and Southsea have a lot of narrow doors - the dockyard had a rule that any piece of wood under a certain length was 'gash' and so could be carried out of the gates, and it was. Doors, windows, - you name it, all were made from wood removed from the dockyard.

There was also the chap with a motor bike and side car. Often he would ride it to work with just the wooden platform on the side car, so he could move his tool box easily. Sometimes he took the whole thing off, sometimes he had just the chassis, other times it was all complete and the little car would be searched carefully at the gates, but nothing was ever found. They were sure that he was pinching something though, as he had a cheeky grin whenever he drove past.

Finally they realised what it was that he was taking out of the dockyard.


Side cars.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 09:56 PM

Gawd I'd forgotten that story! Nice one! I used to drive a BSA M21 600cc side-valve combination in those days, but it wasn't me Guv!

The flailing, sorry frailing guitar sound, imitating a sub's diesels, also accompanied The Oggie Man. Of course there are those who would insist that 'Oggie' refers to childrens' playground chants.

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 03:24 AM

As everyone now agrees Chicken on a Raft is Fried Egg on Toast, what made it "Monday morning is a terrible sight to see" was the way they were cooked, (depending on the type of ship it was normally hardend bread (normally cooked on board and a couple of days old), either toasted or deep fried, the eggs were cooked in old cooking oil/fat/lard or a combination of any, on a large tray that held about 24 eggs, and when served was dripped in congealing fat etc. the fried toast was similar. Normally the oil/fat/lard was recycled again and again for the next meal.

Bruce D

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 03:54 AM

a veritable curates egg., rather like this thread, good in places

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 04:26 AM

I stayed in the old Dolphin a couple of times when using the JS sail training centre at Gosport.
It is army now and reverted to its old name of Fort Blockhouse.

I would always get a room with harbour views, surely the best in all Pompy.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 06:54 AM

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 03:24 AM

"As everyone now agrees Chicken on a Raft is Fried Egg on Toast"

Sigh.

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 09:04 AM

Well, everyone might not, Tone: keep on sighing.

But some reference works do -- see my post 0145pm on 11 Mar. Sigh all you like but you can't sigh all authorities away.

You call me pigheaded; why can't you get it into your thick skull that, in common with all folklore and many other artefacts and creations, more than one version can exist - and the one you happen to favour or like best -- & even the one Cyril Tawney did -- need not be the definitively most commonly accepted one?

Pig-head! & Big-head!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:01 AM

In the context of this song chicken on a raft means fried egg on fried bread, because that's what Cyril meant it to mean when he wrote it, it may well mean other things to other people in different context's but in this case it means fried egg on fried bread, get it ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:30 AM

No, Dave. I agree re 'the context of this song'; but we are not only talking of 'the context of this song'. This thread is about the meaning of the phrase, not necessarily purely within that one context ~~ look at its title. I know what it means in Cyril's song, thank you: I knew Cyril too, you know. A respectable online reference work I have consulted [0145 11 March] glosses it marginally differently. I am not gainsaying Cyril's connotation. Simply pointing out that, as you admit, it isn't the only possible one. So what are you both getting your knickers in such a twist about?

Get that?

~M~

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:45 AM

You made that point identically before, Dave ~~ 2 days ago. Why repeat yourself?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:52 AM

Or, Dave, do you take as your watchword the 2nd stanza of Lewis Carroll's The Hunting Of The Snark --"

"...I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true" -- ?

If so, you have only once more to say it; tho I am not sure that Carroll meant it to be taken as entirely trustworthy or unironic, whatever his character The Bellman may have thought. So even if you say it 30 times 3...

Still, if that's what turns you on...

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 11:47 AM

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:30 AM

"No, Dave. I agree re 'the context of this song'; but we are not only talking of 'the context of this song'. This thread is about the meaning of the phrase, not necessarily purely within that one context ~~ look at its title."

And look at the OP's post. He specifically and immediately mentions Cyril's pseudo-shanty.

The matter was resolved long ago, way back in this thread. All you are doing is confusing the issue, and getting on your high horse because you can't admit that in the context of the OP's question, you are quite simply wrong, no matter how many times or how emphatically you repeat your error.

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Rumncoke
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:48 PM

I used to ride a BSA A10, 650cc - rebuilt it in the dining room of a (ground floor) flat in Margate Rd Southsea.

There was a motorcycle shop in Elm Grove and they were rather bemused to have a person of the female persuasion coming in and buying bits for a motorbike - it was 1970 but there was a 50 year time lag as you went through their door.

I took the bike around to show them once I had finished it and got it back on the sidecar - a double Watsonian.

I used to carry all the gear for a couple of folk singers, and often folk singers as well. We used to go to various pubs, the Thatched House and Old House at Home on Locksway Rd - and the White Swan next to the theatre in the city centre, opposite the Yorkshire Grey, The Horseshoe at the end of Elm Grove and three or four more - we took a collection at half time, did quite well from what I remember.

Ah those were the days.

Oh - and when they were frying up breakfast, the cooks would test the heat of the hotplate by spitting on it - when the drops danced it was good to go.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:30 AM

Yes, Tone! OK, Tone! There there, Tone! Have it your own way, Tone!

Feeling better now, Sweetiepops?

☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:18 AM

Forgot to add Three Bags Full, Tone...!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:28 AM

Yes, Tone! OK, Tone! There there, Tone! Have it your own way, Tone!

Feeling better now, Sweetiepops?

Forgot to add Three Bags Full, Tone...!


If all else fails at least make sure you have the last word!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:50 AM

And now, O anonymous Guest, justify your contention that having the last word demonstrates that all else has failed. Don't see the logic of that myself.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:19 AM

zythum

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:19 AM

amen

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

The original poster 13 ago asked questions about the content of Cyrils song Chicken on a raft.
Numerous people since have explained what the terms meant and what Cyril meant by Chicken on a raft in the song,thus answering the posters Queries.
Some contributors also gave descriptions of what they called chicken on a raft, not what the song was about.
You have picked up on this and argued ever since that Cyril was not an authourity on what his song was about because what they called chicken on a raft was something else.
You persist in your argument what ever any one else says and resort to childish mockery in an effort to win.
Logic is one thing, stubborn persitence and sarcasm is another.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:58 AM

Some Naval slang from my 11 years ;
    Dabtoes - Seamen ,usually specifically boats ( cutter,whaler etc ) crews , as they wore white plimsolls.( US-gumshoes ?)
      Bootnecks - Marines
      Fish-heads - General Service (surface fleet ) sailors
       Airey Fairies - Fleet Air Arm ( naval aviation) personnel
      Joss Man - The Master -At-Arms
       Jaunty - ditto
      Joss Man's Runner - Miserable ,anchor-faced type who wanted to become a "Crusher" ( Regulator) the bastard.
       Anchor Faced - Excessively keen and enthusiastic about the Navy
       Big OD - Opposite of the above
       Big F - Commander (Air)
       Little F -- Lt.Commander (Flying)
       Pier Head Jump - An unexpected sudden draft (posting) to a ship
       Burbs - Rain coat
       Windy Burbs - Jacket ,Working ,Windproof
       Wanchai Burbs - Oriental bamboo and paper umbrella
       Pusser's Hard - Hard,unpleasant-smelling Royal Navy soap
         Dhobi or Dhobey - Washing , laundry
         Dhobey-Dust - Powder for above
         Dhobey-Bucket- Container for above !
         Magic Dhobey -Bucket - Washing machine !

   Shall I continue ?? There's lots more !

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:33 AM

You persist in your argument what ever any one else says and resort to childish mockery in an effort to win.
Logic is one thing, stubborn persitence and sarcasm is another.,.,.,.
.,,.,.
Diddums. I could say more but cannot bringmyself tomock the afflicted>>>>

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,Diddums
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:52 AM

Diddums. I could say more but cannot bringmyself tomock the afflicted>>>>

Really?

When the above statement does exactly what you say it does not

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: eddie1
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 12:54 PM

This thread which originally brought back some happy memories of Cyril & Rosemary had descended into the stupid "you said, he said but he didn't really mean what he said or if he did he should have allowed for all the other meanings of what he meant when he said what he said" kind of stupid point scoring which comes up all too often in Mudcat.
This tends to make me ignore Mudcat for some time then I return and see it all happening all over again.

As Tone said very clearly a few posts ago, th OP made it very obvious that he was looking for some help on the song "Chicken on a Raft" written by Cyril Tawney.

Why don't those who have a mind, start another thread entitled "Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft' (but the phrase, not the pseudo- shantey written by Cyril Tawney)"?

You can then argue to your hearts' content about the various meanings.

Eddie

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 01:30 PM

The voice of sanity.
I just hope you don't set certain people of again

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 01:56 PM

I think nuff said. MtheGM has proved himself a prat, so lets leave it there, eh?

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 02:04 PM

Oops. I said what I think instead of saying what is prudent to the site Sorry!

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:16 PM

still the thread is amusing,BUT nobody yet has been called a booby.
I have to give it to MGM he has style, he is one of the most articulate and erudite of ARGUERS,he reminds me of a cross between Don Quixote/Frank Muir and GB Shaw

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:27 PM

Wow, thankee Dick!

Don't know who Tone maybe; but ne'er mind. I think he is a prat; he thinks I am a prat. Fair's fair, eh? LoL...

~M·the·erudite·articulate·argumentative·prat~

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:33 PM

I think he is a prat; he thinks I am a prat
.,,.

Sorry, Dick. I meant of course that I think he is a BOOBY.

Almost let you down! Phew!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:52 PM

MtheGM has been pedantic, in general, in this exchange. I can see how that might frustrate Tone, et al.

However, the *first* entry by MtheGM really *did* make sense. Because, Tone, you jumped in with such authority, and in a style that seemed somewhat oblivious to the tenor of the discussion, to say "Guys, THIS is it; 'nuff said." MtheGM was simply reining it back, in a way, policing the discussion (in the way a good pedant does) to make sure it all doesn't sound too positive...that we don't all too sound *too* sure of ourselves. This is a "check" that is absolutely needed in "folklore" discussions. (The ensuing back and forth banter was not needed though, IMO!)

The careful style has as its possible negative aspect a tendency to be overly pedantic. Yet. scholars, etc. *need* to be pedantic for their work to have rigor.
The 'simple', direct style can be too positive. Yet, casual presenters may *need* to sound positive to address a given audience well.

You guys have very different styles.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:30 PM

Yeah but he's wrong and I'm right!

Simples.

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:28 PM

Oh, good old canalwheeler aka Tone! Jumps up on the forum, determined to make an impact, and starts chucking his weight about; and expects us all to take him seriously & kowtow to his acute sensibilities.

Silly, aggressive, pompous, conceited, self-satisfied little jackanapes. We've seen his sort on here before. Wonder how long he'll last!

~M~

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:37 PM

Sorry, should have said first off ~~

Many thanks, Gibb, for your comprehending and sympathetic appreciation of my motivations & attitudes But some Tones can be an itty-bitty hard to convince.

~M~

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: RTim
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 10:56 PM

Stop - When are you guys going to grow up??

Cyril thought Chicken on a Raft was Fried Egg on Fried Bread!
It seems not to be the only meaning of the term.
If you didn't know of the song - you would not know the term - unless you
were a between the Wars submariner!!
So the context of the original question was about the song and this is a list about music!

Therefore - Chicken on a Raft means - Fried Egg on Fried Bread!!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:26 AM

What's surprising to me is that this thread is alive after 13 years, and people are still posting and arguing the same things.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 05:19 AM

RTim, Derrick, et al ~~ surprised at your being so contentiously and toffee-nosedly disapproving. Why shouldn't Tone and I disagree on certain matters without your adopting this lordly tone of fastidious disapprobation? What's it to do with you, eh, what topics he & I choose to address one another on or the terms and tones in which we choose to do it? Just MYOB, you priggish & pompous persons!

~M~

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:32 PM

Let it be.

Tone

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:40 PM

Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!

~M~

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,Bandr
Date: 30 May 13 - 08:33 AM

In South Wales in the 60s plimsolls were called daps or sometimes dabs (maybe they still are). Perhaps the Naval slang dabtoes or daptoes comes from the same source and means 'wearer of plimsolls'.

This is a theory and it's my theory. You can argue about whether or not it's right but you can't argue about it being my theory.

Bandr

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,Elc
Date: 26 Jun 13 - 11:55 PM

I've never seen this forum, but if I'm reading the timestamps correctly, this thread is from 2000? And it's still active? WHAT?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 01:43 AM

Yes, good isn't it?

Enjoy


K/van

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 13 - 02:44 AM

I guess a greasy fried egg on toast would be an unwelcome sight a morning after a heavy night on the beer!

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,JohnL
Date: 23 May 14 - 09:32 AM

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: bubblyrat
Date: 03 Jun 14 - 03:47 PM

Chicken on a Raft = egg (howsoever cooked) on fried bread or toast

Babies' Heads = individual steak and kidney puddings

A Spithead Pheasant = a Kipper

Trainsmash = tinned tomatoes and streaky bacon

Harry Thickers = thick pea and ham soup

Hammy/Eggy/Cheesey = self explanatory ( in Holland, an "Uitsmijter " )

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,James
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 12:20 AM

I don't understand "the jimmy's laughin' like it'd rain"

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Harry Rivers
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 02:25 AM

In Royal Navy slang, "The Jimmy" is the First Lieutenant, i.e the Captain's right hand man. He was widely known (unfairly?) for not giving much concern for the plight of the crew, hence he's "laughing like a drain".

Harry

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: ripov
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 05:03 PM

fromMrMidshipman Easy, by captain Marryat(c1863)..either by being sentenced to death by a court-martial, or by being dismissed, and towed on shore on a grating.. would fit the bill?
Marryat also wrote "children of the new forest, in which deerhunting(in the days of muskets)is discussed,or at least taught to one of the young heroes by an old forester which may be of interestto those who contributed to a recent thread on the number of points on a stag royal
Books available on gutenberg(is that the correct spelling?) project

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: ripov
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 05:06 PM

from "Mr Midshipman Easy", by captain Marryat(c1863)Would"..either by being sentenced to death by a court-martial, or by being dismissed, and towed on shore on a grating.." fit the bill?
Marryat also wrote "children of the new forest, in which deerhunting(in the days of muskets)is discussed,or at least taught to one of the young heroes by an old forester which may be of interestto those who contributed to a recent thread on the number of points on a stag royal
Books available on gutenberg(is that the correct spelling?) project

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: ripov
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 05:07 PM

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,watcher
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 09:27 AM

At a performance in Exeter Cyril Tawney said he had heard some youngsters singing it as "skinheads on a raft".
When he talked to them he was amused by them explaining it was baked beans on toast!
An example of the folk process in action?

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 05:31 PM

The dear sadly departed MGM Lion was perfectly correct.

Cyril Tawney also now sadly departed did not own the expression.

"(Insert whatever) on a raft" - is "whatever" on TOASTED Bread OR ON FRIED BREAD.

Oh by the way all those who purport to have been ex-submariners particularly those on the diesel-electric boats that Cyril served on must know that when alongside ANYWHERE you messed ashore or on your Depot Ship - NOT on your own boat.

At sea, particularly on exercise while submerged the Skipper would do anything rather than waste battery power, so your diet was either Corned Beef and Onion Sandwiches or Herring in Tomato Sandwiches - Nothing was cooked.

"Dabtoes for'd and the Dustmen Aft" - describes typical messing arrangements on any small ship [Destroyers down] Dabtoes or seaman's messes were normally found for'd under the focsle, while the Dustmen or the Stokers were back aft. Applicable to submarines as the seamen messed for'd in the torpedo compartment and the Stokers messed aft nearest to the engines.

A Rabbit was something obtained in a foreign port to bring home as a present. While something that was "Ferreted" was something "acquired" by fair means or foul from within the dockyard or from another ship - [Best example of this I ever heard of was by a young Midshipman who was given the job of "Boats Officer" on his first ship. While in Portland during "Work-Up" he "borrowed" the ornamental Dolphins from Flag Officer Sea Training's Official Barge as he thought that his Captain's Barge had greater need of them - The Shit Storm this caused was epic and highly amusing, especially when he had to get them back and reinstalled without getting caught].

A "Homer" was something that you managed to get the dockyard to do for your ship off the books [On the sly] normally paid for with Duty Free Spirits or with Duty Free Tobacco.

Subject: RE: Help: Meaning of 'Chicken on a Raft'
From: Gurney
Date: 07 Apr 21 - 06:00 PM

I just read down this thread for the first time since it was put up.
I was a member of Cyril's club for a couple of years when I lived in Plymouth, and I once asked him what he thought of the Young Tradition's way of holding that note. He replied that he didn't care, "Just as long as they sing it."

By the way, Cyril had been a 'Tiffy,' an Engine Room Artificer, he told me.

Ashore, and out of the service, Rabbitting is usually incessant talking, as used by Chas and Dave in their song 'Rabbit.'