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PUBLIC APOLOGY
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Subject: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: wysiwyg Date: 27 Jun 00 - 06:31 PM People, the time has come. I have been thinking about this for a long time. This will not have much to do with music but perhaps it has to do with tolerance within our Mudcat community and I would hope that tolerance is always pertinent. The things people assume about Christians seem to make it so clear how much hurt has been done to people in the name of "Christianity." So I have three things to say about this. First, there are people actively working within churches and the world of organized religion to stop these hurts, to help people heal from them when they have occurred, and to help the people who do them to stop doing them. Second, I am one of those people and it would help me do this better if you would send me a personal message telling me what awful things Christians have ever done to you, or to people you care about, because I need to see it from your viewpoint. But third, and most important, I am sorry. You probably do not know that within Christian circles, "we" talk about this (and whine at each other about this) on and on, and about how "we" "ought" to treat people, and how our fellow Christians ought to treat people. But we seldom seem to come out in public and own up to the bad things that "we" do. And since "we" claim the name "Christian," we bear a share of the work of answering for these abuses, even when we ourselves have not done those things so feared and hated by our non-Christian friends. So I apologize for whatever evil has been done to each and every one of you by someone waving the flag of Christ. It isn't enough, I know. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Amergin Date: 27 Jun 00 - 06:39 PM Uh, Susan, why do you feel the need to apologise for the actions of a few? I know you are not like those who gave your religion a bad name. You didn't go around committing genocide, burn witches, and whatnot in the name of your god. Just because your god is not mine doesn't mean I don't respect him. I very much respect and admire Christ. He was a great political and religious leader in his time. He tried so much to help his people and it got him crucified. In fact he is the most famous martyr for the cause of the common man. One more thing, it is not the lips that speak the loudest, it is the heart. You have just shown us yours. Blessed be. Amergin |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: wysiwyg Date: 27 Jun 00 - 06:43 PM Amergin, Why? Because I feel (hear, see) the need of those who have been hurt, for the offering of the apology. When I have offered it privately to an individual, it has made a difference for them. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Jon Freeman Date: 27 Jun 00 - 06:59 PM My view is different to yours Praise. I agree that a great amount of damage has been done in the name of Christainity but ultimately, all of the damage has been done by the failure of Christains to follow the teachings of Christ. I admit to my many failures and will apologise for those but I think it unfair to suggest that Christians should appologise for the wrongs committed by other Christians. My own experience with many of my fellow Christians has been far from happy because I am a little bit different and have had a few problems over the years. The very people who you would think would be the first to help have often been the first to condemn and I refuse to be held accounatble for the damage they do not just to others but to our own religion. Jon
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: GUEST,Don Meixner Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:10 PM This is aimed at Self Avowed Christians but it could as well be Muslims, or Jews, or Hindus, or Sihks or any number of religioud people who feel that zeal and evangelicism is the only way to express their faith. If I have a resentment it is to those Christians who assume that because I don't were my faith on my sleave or on the trunk of my car that I am not truly a Christian. I try to live my life in a charitable and honorable way. To help those who need my help. I try to raise my children with a set of values and a sense of fair play. I resent the crowd who insists I listen to them extole the virtues of their faith while at the same time they are denegrating my beliefs. The evangelical crowd who shouts down a faith that has stood me in good stead in moments of my need are no different than those who use religion as an allowable excuse for terrorism. The vocal few that feel that their faith is better and their laws are "juster" are cut from the same cloth as those who blow up barracks, aircraft, stores, open air markets, and public assemblies in the name of God. The diference between those Christians and THIS CHRISTIAN is Jesus said "Cut them some slack." so I do. I resent the notion that the path to heaven and the mysteries there of can only be explained by a man. I resent the notion that the way people love people is sinful in some cases. I don't feel the need to give or accept appologies for my faith. I am the person that I am and I believe as I do because the example given to me Christ is a good way to live. I try to live that way. I won't tell you what to read or watch because I don't approve of what you like. I won't use my religion as an excuse to trade in politics. I won't tell you how to pray or who can preach to you I will feed you when you come to my door hungry. I will offer the best blessing I can for you. If you are cold there is room by my fire. There is no charge for this, it is freely given because Jesus said " Do unto others..." Just as did Buddah, Mohammed, and other teachers. I will treat you and your faith with the same consideration I would wish of mine. I'll help if i can and I will do more if needed. Just ask. Don
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Mbo Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:23 PM This ain't commin' from no prophet... Just an ordinary man When I close my eyes I see The way this world shall be When we all walk hand in hand... When the last child cries for a crust of bread When the last man dies for just words that he said When there's shelter over the poorest head We shall be free When the last thing we notice is the color of skin And the first thing look for is the beauty within When the skies and the oceans are clean again Then we shall be free We shall be free, we shall be free Stand straight, and walk proud 'Cause we shall be free When we're free to love anyone we choose And this world's big enough for all different views When we can all worship from our own kind of pew Then we shall be free We shall be free, we shall be free Have a little faith and hold out 'Cause we shall be free And when money talks for the very last time And nobody walks a step behind And there's only one race and that's mankind Then we shall be free We shall be free, we shall be free Stand straight and walk proud Have a little faith and hold out We shall be free We shall be free Stand straight! Have a little faith!Walk proud! Hold out! We shall be free --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Dulci46 Date: 27 Jun 00 - 08:41 PM Mbo that was beautiful!!! |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Jeri Date: 27 Jun 00 - 08:54 PM Garth Brooks, I believe. |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: bbelle Date: 27 Jun 00 - 08:57 PM Praise ... I don't care what your religion is, as long as you do not wave it in my face. I do, however, care that your have started this thread on this forum, which I think is totally inappropriate. This is not a religious forum and, while religion does come into play because we have discussions on gospel music, etc., your thread is a blatant attempt to wave your banner. It's as if you are proselytizing and patronizing, both at the same time ... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Mbo Date: 27 Jun 00 - 08:59 PM Sho' 'nuff is, Jeri. One of my favorites. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: mjm Date: 27 Jun 00 - 09:34 PM PRAISE FOR PRAISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MOONCHILD, IN CASE YOU HAVEN'T NOTICED, THERE IS A TON OF STUFF ON THIS FORUM THAT IS NOT RELATED TO MUSIC. ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS IN OTHER THREADS, IT IS POINTED OUT THE VALUE OF NOT PARTICIPATING IN ANY PARTICULAR DISCUSSION IF YOU FIND THE CONTENT TO BE OFFENSIVE. IT DOESN'T GET ANY EASIER THAN THAT. M |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: dwditty Date: 27 Jun 00 - 09:47 PM De Colores! |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: GUEST, The Yank Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:15 PM I also don't think this is the appropriate forum for proselytising thinly disguised as 'mea culpa', but since you ask, off the top of my head: Jerry Falwell. Pat Robertson The 'Moral Majority'[sic]. Ian Paisley. Georgie Bush in South Carolina. The KKK (good Christians, all). And these are just the smug, self-satisfied, homophobic,narrow-minded, racist bigots who think they have the God-given right to tell everyone else how to live their lives that the world has been afflicted with recently. It doesn't bear going back into history, nor is there enough space available to catalog the atrocities. And too bloody right, ~Susan, it damn well ISN'T enough. |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: bbelle Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:23 PM mjm, obviously you don't know me very well. I don't yell and I don't post anonymously ... I simply say what I have to say. Perhaps you should remove your caps lock and talk in a lower tone of voice. This thread is totally inappropriate. In no way, shape, form, or fashion does it even remotely relate to music. It is religious patronizing, at it's best. It belongs on a religious forum. Whether you like it or not, this is a music forum. We have been asked to live harmoniously with those of different opinions, as to what information should be allowed on the forum. This thread, however, pushes that request to the limit ... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: GUEST,Joerg Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:36 PM Susan - maybe I know some advice although I'm not sure. It may sound a little too scientific or too rational after all that was said up to here, and I don't know if it helps you, but at least it helped me. Try to find out what exactly e.g. the following words mean to you in particular - thus finding out the differences between them: Religion - religiosity - belief - heaven/hell - christian - christianity - love - tolerance - peace - church - organized religion - moral - ethics - sin - good/bad ... You know e.g. 'christianity' is not just a noun made from the adjective 'christian'. Witches were burnt in the name of christianity but was that christian? If not, who is to blame for that fatal mistake? Christianity, the church, Mr. ..., or even YOU? (Well if you really think that it was you just tell us and we will have you arrested and condemned and hanged on the highest tree because crucifiction is a little tasteless nowadays and then we can live in peace with ourselves and you can have a place in history not to say become immortal and and and... ;->) There are many, many key questions you can ask to find out those differences. Just some examples: - What do you think will get you to heaven: Decent behaviour or strong belief? Obeying rules many religions tell or supporting your church? ... - What is more important to you: Getting to heaven or behaving well on earth? (Would you go to hell for the welfare of somebody you love or to get him/her to heaven? Do you think doing so will get you to hell? BTW - what's love?) - What do you think is better: Whining about mistakes done by others together or avoiding them yourself quite alone? I am sure you will run into many more questions of this kind if you think about the above words and what they mean to you when trying to answer such questions. When you're done with it, i.e. when you know what all of this means to you - then ask yourself again whether there is a need to apologize. (Well - maybe so...) Love Joerg |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: flattop Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:41 PM What I really hate about Christians, Susan, is the CAPLOCKS! Just kidding. I trust that you haven't gone on this rant because I apologized but didn't answer your question about why I bait you on a recent thread. The answer may be long and complicated. I might have to admit that I can be a miserable sot and that you may the closest thing we have to a Mudcat saint. And then there's the question that Viki Gabereau discussed with Joshua Halberstam, the author of Everyday Ethics, 'If the saint is such a great guy, why doesn't anyone want to spend the afternoon with him?' You could lighten up on your flagellant fettish though. Christianity wasn't all that bad. Even Christianity had it's lighter moments like when Constintine outlawed infanticide after he had murdered his own son and had second thoughts. Hope you're feeling better, Susan. Looks like you found the energy to write a shitload of e-mails today. Keep up the good work, girl. |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:44 PM While I don't think one person can apologize for another, I don't see anything wrong with making a statement about values, religious or musical. I am a guest here, and it seems to be not a forum strictly about music, but a discussion among musicians about ... almost anything. What's wrong with that? Musicians do occasionally think about other things. == Johnny |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Wavestar Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:49 PM Moonchild, I don't understand why you say this is patronising, or even prostyletising. I think given the tone of what Praise said, you could respond with more grace. You are right, this isn't music related. I don't care, I understand that you do, and you have a valid point- but I don't think it's patronising. She never asked you to become Christian, she never said hers was the only way- she only apologised, as best she could, for all the things that have been done under the name of Christ to offended people - these people, here, on mudcat, perhaps like yourself, I wouldn't know. As for The Yank- Every group, race, and nation in the world has commited atrocities. Horrible things have been done in the name of peace, of love, or God, Allah, whatever thing you can name. That does not make these things bad. That does not mean that all the good things also inspired by these causes, beliefs, etc, should be discounted. I believe that Praise is a good, kind, honest, giving woman, who follows her Christian ideals to heal instead of hurt, and give instead of take, push down, or fear. She has no duty to apologise as she did - and you have no right to suggest that she should do more, or indeed, that any of us who are Christian, and are NOT these people you name nor follow them, should owe you or the world more. We are sorry that pain has been caused. I would heal it if I could. But don't turn the accusing finger on me or be angry at me - my beliefs, of goodness, kindness, honesty, and healing, not those of Pat Robertson, are what I call Christianity. I just think it's funny... everyone complains that the Christians rule the world, and squash all other religions in our path - has anyone else out there found out how had it is to be a Christian and not be railed upon for your beliefs? I don't feel like the winner. -Jessica |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Victoria H. Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:52 PM As to "It is not enough...." That was not the point, was it? ....How can even the most heartfelt attempt of one person ever be "enough" to erase the pain caused by many? I don't think the original post meant anything of the kind.It was a step, a beginning, one person trying to heal instead of hurt. Any step in the direction of acceptance, tolerance and brotherhood (sisterhood, personhood, you choose...) is one step closer than before, and as such, every step counts. If one person may take one step, think of how far we can move together if all of us did the same? I applaud you, Praise, as I would applaud any person of any religion, for reaching out in the first place - and I feel compelled to add that while the past is out of our hands, we can still make a difference for the future. The blame of the past lies on the heads of those that hurt others in the past... but the hope of the future lies in our hearts, our hands and our voices, and in the children we raise to embrace differences rather than despise them. This means all of us, not just one religion or group. We have a long way to go, no matter what our individual religion (or lack of religion) may be - and each of us can make a small difference that is part of a larger equation. I am speaking from my own Christian viewpoint, but this is something I discuss often with my friends, the closest and dearest of whom just happen to be Jewish, Pagan, Catholic and Gay, respectively. These are people I am proud to have in my life, and they are blessings to me. |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: mjm Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:53 PM and why is that you, moonchild, feel as though this thread in particular does in fact push the "request to the limit". because it is a personal and or spiritual upset to you and other participants, because it strikes a very sensitive cord. no pun. whose limit are we referring to and defining. yours? max's? as previously stated, there are dozens of threads here that do not relate to music. hence, open forum. if it is okay to talk about earthquakes, death chambers, Elian (sp?), sports, sexy accents, etc., then why not this subject? additionally, i do not post anonymously; i'm not new here.
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Mbo Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:53 PM Facts show that Christianity is the one most persecuted religious group in the world. Guess it's our just desserts... --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Gypsy Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:57 PM Interesting. I am expected to apologize for my beliefs, and totally accept others beliefs, when they tread upon mine. Guess what? I AM Christian, play music, and don't find the two any way incompatible. After all, the psalm sez "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord with tabour and harp" I won't step on your philosophy, please don't step on mine. |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: flattop Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:05 PM Yanker's list might suggest that it's men who give Christianity a bad name. Not a woman mentoned by name. And isn't it easier to step on a skipping rope than than on a philosophy? I too applaud Praise. We just have trouble communicating. |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: bbelle Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:08 PM Well, dear, I'm not near here either. I've been here since 1997 and I've read thousands of threads which don't give song lyrics or talk about instruments, etc. I have never seen a thread so blatantly patronizing in nature ... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Áine Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:10 PM My dearest darlin' Praise, You are one brave woman. I applaud your respect for us all, your grace of expression, and your obvious agape love for all us Mudcatters (assenters and dissenters alike). Although I don't think you personally have anything to apologize for, I will accept your apology in the name of all the so-called "Christians" who have caused me personal distress. And since I grew up in the Bible Belt, you can well imagine how many of them there have been in my life. I don't hold you responsible for any of their actions, but, as they say, never look a gift horse in the mouth (nothing personal, you understand *BG*). I will hold your warm and loving declaration close to my heart always as an affirmation of the true love of Christ (and of every other person who ever walked this earth and swam against the current of human misery and hatred) and I thank whatever higher power there may be that I call you 'friend'. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Victoria H. Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:10 PM PS to Jessica.... I do know what it is like to be a Christian and railed upon for my beliefs. In my circle of friends and aquaintences, in that respect I have always been a minority. Being a minority, and railed upon for my beliefs has made me more determined than ever to never do that to another person. |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: mjm Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:16 PM patronizing is only your opinion, moonchild, which is not to imply that your opinion does not have worth. but you made a very clear statement by saying that [this] pushed the limit and i would still like to know who is responsible here for defining this limit which, by your standards, has been exceeded. m |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: GUEST,Barry Finn Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:18 PM I'M SORRY I'm Sorry...So Sorry, that I was to cool I didn't know cool could be so cruel Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh yes You tell me, mistakes, are part of being born again But, that, don't right the wrong that's been done
I'm Sorry, I'm Sorry
You bless me then confess to me, that you are to young
I'm Sorry, to Sorry, words can't express my apology
You sold me then told me please except my deep regrets
So you're sorry, so sorry so please except my apology Barry, who's not at all sorry cause I know I've already been forgiven (I can't stop myself). |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: flattop Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:23 PM If you don't mind thread creep, have you noticed that old hymns that were most popular seem to emphasize chordal notes? Amazing Grace seems to hang on the notes of the chord, same for Roll Jordan Roll. And that bit in Will Your Anchor Hold where it walks down the chord on the words, 'grounded firm and deep.' Amazing. Modern melodies seem mushier because the go in steps rather than chordal jumps. I could be wrong, but what the... |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Mark Cohen Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:24 PM Susan, I didn't find your message to be either patronizing or proselytizing. As a Jew, I know a little bit about religious intolerance, and I didn't feel a shred of that in what you've said. I know you personally haven't harmed me personally in any way, but I feel comfortable accepting your message and apology in the spirit in which it was offered. If only the worst offense any of us ever committed were to apologize unnecessarily or even "inappropriately", the world would be much better off. I was about to mention the same thing Mbo did, about Christians being persecuted. Then it just occurred to me that it may actually be another Internet myth, since I've never seen any documentation and don't know how one could "prove" it. Then it further occurred to me that it really doesn't matter--since there's no denying that Christians and other groups are persecuted--UNLESS this "fact" is used to justify further intolerance. Which, in this circumstance, doesn't seem to be the case. Sadly, the concept of "enemy" seems to be hard-wired into our human nervous systems, and fanatics are fanatics no matter what their stripe. But I for one am glad for a place like the Mudcat, where human beings who happen to like folk music (and blues!), can occasionally share non-"musical" thoughts and ideas with the expectation, or at least the hope, that they will be treated with dignity and respect. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: paddymac Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:24 PM Seems like too many folks believe that nothing needs changing so much as the other guy's religion, whatever it might be. I wish I could claim that as an original line, but somebody or other said it long time ago. I could care less about words of apology. But I truly do appreciate deeds that speak the same message. Words are cheap. Actions speak much more loudly. |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: bbelle Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:27 PM I don't believe that I ever indicated that my limits and opinions are other than my own. So ... since this is an unrestricted forum, one must set one's own limits. This is, of course, said under the assumption that you wouldn't limit my opinions... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Áine Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:31 PM Dear Mark, Two occasions of the persecution of Christians come to mind, 100 years apart, which goes to show that the more things change, etc. -- The Boxer Rebellion in mainland China, when Christian missionaries and their converts were murdered in horrendous ways in 1900, and the killings of Christian priests and converts in India in the past few weeks, in like horrendous fashion. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:34 PM Some years ago a noted journalist here wrote an article titled "god save us from christians". It's got the makings of a good song title. Regards / John Gray (whowasachristianuntilhebeltedthecrapoutofthecatholicpriestwhowasconductingourpreweddinginterviewandisnottheleastbitsorryfordoingso) FME |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: mjm Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:48 PM praise, what a beautiful thing you've created here. chosen a subject, although perhaps not intentionally, which many obviously feel so passionate about... got the blood flowing, brain cranking, heart pounding, sparks flying, and some angels singing, too. merci beaucoup! m |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: bob jr Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:59 PM um i figure that anyone who took the time to look into the historical research that has been done on "christ" and what we now know as christianity would have a hard time making the two things fit together. you want to apologize to someone praise? apologize to Jesus! |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Bill D Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:09 AM 1) Isn't it interesting how a number of intelligent people can look at the same facts or situations and reach totally different conclusions and have very different reactions? .....seems to me there is a lot more than attempts at reason going on in people's heads. 2)My own attempts a reason have led me to the conclusion that "Freedom of Religion" also implies freedom FROM religion for those who wish. I wish it were as easy as the U.S. Supreme Court ruling that you can't have 'official' prayers before High School football games......definitions of 'folk' is easy compared to the high emotion in this discussion.
3) Peanut Butter sandwiches are insoluble in gasoline. |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: katlaughing Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:12 AM While I love to see these discussions on here, it bothers me that there seems to be an assumption that we may desire an apology or even see the need for one. I do not believe Praise meant it as proselytising, but that is a bit of what it feels like. That is just my opinion and I am not in anyway saying it shouldn't be on here. Also, while I know that Praise is not espousing empty rhetoric, cynicism does rear its head when one hears of these kinds of beating of breasts, esp. in light of the Pope's apology this past year. Sure, he apologised, but did he do anything to stop the hatred, bigotry, and oppression of women, homosexuals, etc? Did he tell parents of gay men who've been ostracised by them and the Church to open their hearts and homes to their children? Did he tell 3rd world women to use more reliable birth control to save themselves and their families from starvation? Too many times, it is the women first who are controlled and directed by religion, even as the extremists of Islam are doing in the Middle East. So, I am cynical about such things in general but not on an individual basis. I recognise that I have a high degree of cynicism when it comes to religion, esp. Christianity, even though my sister is a minister of a metaphysical Christian church and a great many of my dear friends are Christian. It is understandable that now, in the past few decades when the real horrors that have been and, in some cases still are being perpetrated in the name of Christ, are being exposed and told, non-Falwell Christians are hyper-sensitive to criticism. I see some of the Falwell/Robertson type rhetoric as the death throes of the Piscean Age, which was meant to be very patriarchal. In the Aquarian Age, we are meant to come to a balancing in the world so that there is equality and cooperation between all peoples, no matter their gender, IMO. In American, especially, I would say to you, my Mudcat friends who are Christians...if Falwell and Robertson and their ilk do not represent your type of Christianity, then please speak up, vote, get everyone you know to vote, take back your religion from the zealots and bigots and get them out of politics. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Jon Freeman Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:23 AM Bill, I don't think there is such thing as freedom from religion (or belief system). The reason I make this point is that the freedom from religion arguement tends to be used by athiests to inflict their belief systems on others. Freedom of religion/ belief system is something I can agree with. Jon |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Jon Freeman Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:26 AM Must correct one of my errors there: I meant to say freedom of choce of religion/ belief system. Jon |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Bill D Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:50 AM Jon, I guess my point is, I do have a set of 'beliefs' of sorts, but I don't go 'round knocking on the doors of Jehovah's Witnesses trying to make them see the error of their ways.(I also get Mormons here, being right near the temple....).... The thing about religion is, one says "I believe in so & so" with 'believe', not 'know', being the operative word. Therefore, if 4,987,521,614 people believe one way, and one person believes another, he could be the one who is right...or both could be wrong! But it WOULD be wrong for the 4,987,521,614 to nag the one guy to change his mind, or expect him to bow his head for their prayers. In some things majority does NOT rule --nor might make right. I have seen some VERY strange religious beliefs** in my time, but nothing I say is likely to change their minds, so why bother? If asked directly, I will tell you my views of the "meaning of life", and we may even have a nice discussion, but I will seldom bring up the subject, as it only leads to threads such as this...*sigh* **(the lady who was sort of cross between a Jain and a Buddist, and would not squash a bug for fear of MUCH karma...so she threw them out in the snow, saying "what God does with them out there is none of my business) |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: John Hindsill Date: 28 Jun 00 - 01:01 AM I wonder why folks [most often Christians] feel the need to apologize for for the actions of their group, although they themselves did not perpetrate those actions. While well meaning, such an apology is self-serving; one seeks to personally rehabilitate their group, deserved or not. And it would be presumptuous for another to accept such an apology, unless s/he is an aggrieved party. The rules for apology and forgiveness are simple: only the perpetrator can apologize; only the direct victim can forgive on this earth, and God in the hereafter. I only apologize for my hurtful actions; I don't speak for men, white men, Americans, my co-religionists, or family members. I don't forgive Christians, Arabs, Jews, Nazis, racists nor mass murderers (as a group)...but I would forgive You for a wrong done to Me if you apologize for Your personal action. If you feel that you can actually right a wrong, that is the best apology you can make for your group.
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Terry K Date: 28 Jun 00 - 02:29 AM John H - it's the nature of these overt Christians to seek opportunities to show you just how bloody righteous they are. Whenever I see one of those fish-like signs they wear I get a wave of depression come over me. Terry |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Bagpuss Date: 28 Jun 00 - 07:13 AM We only see what we expect to see. Moonchild saw a post about Christianity, and therefore it must be patronising and pros (that other word that i forget how to spell) - because that seems to be her view of christianity. Praise seemed well intentioned to me, but maybe thats because I am christian (of a sort). I don't shove my religion down anyone's throat, and I believe in everyones right to have their own beliefs. In fact I believe that most religions are different reflections and manifestations of one god. The differences are, to me, in emphasis, and of course, the bits us humans have ballsed up in different ways. It may be a funny perspective, but I don't believe in anything because Jesus said it. I believe in it because it seems right to me - and that is why Jesus said it. That way I don't fall into the trap of dogmatic beliefs, and believing in something just cos the pope or whoever said so. Anyway, I also post in a movie discussion site, and we haven't discussed movies for ages! Moonchild, when are you going to post in the thread about interesting deformities, and tell them how inappropriate that is?... Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Sailor Dan Date: 28 Jun 00 - 07:45 AM Bagpuss I agree with most of what you said in the above post. You were doing fine ----UNTIL--you reached the last line. I am a Roman Catholic, and I do not agree with moonchilds post, I think she is in error, but thats her opinion and she is most entitled to have her opinion, BUT YOUR REMARK AT THE END OF YOUR POST IS MOST INAPPROPRIATE AND YOU SHOULD POST A PUBLIC APOLIGY TO MOONCHILD ON THIS THREAD FOR THAT KIND OF REMARK. I TOOK OFFENSE AT IT. Those kind of remarks are not necessary in any thread.Be Christian and above all be a thinker and tolerant not a flammer. We have enough crap in this world. Let the mudcat be a place with tolerance. Sailor Dan |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: GUEST,Mark Cohen (another late night at the hospit Date: 28 Jun 00 - 08:09 AM Aine, I apologize for my unclear statement. I understand why you interpreted it the way you did. I did not mean to imply that Christians have not been persecuted, in fact I said "there's no denying that Christians and others have been persecuted." What I'm not so sure about is Mbo's statement (which I have heard elsewhere and was even going to quote) that Christians outnumber any other group of victims of persecution -- but I really don't think keeping score like that is very helpful anyway, and it can be hurtful. On the other hand, denying that such events occur is even more hurtful; those who deny the horrors of the Nazis come very much to mind. I'm sorry that my careless wording made me sound like one of them. You were right to call me on it, and I assure you that was not at all my intent. Whew, this is tricky stuff! Mark |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Bagpuss Date: 28 Jun 00 - 08:10 AM PUBLIC APOLOGY TO MOONCHILD AND SAILOR DAN!! Dan, I don't know you, so I can't tell whether that was serious or a joke. Just for the record, the last line was a joke. I get down on my knees and beg forgiveness from whosoever I may have offended. I am humble in your sight. Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: Áine Date: 28 Jun 00 - 08:32 AM Dear Mark, Oh dear, I'm sorry if I made it seem like I was calling you on your statements. I was merely musing on Mbo's and your own comments. Those two terrible situations involving persecution of Christians just popped into my head; probably, because I had heard and/or read about in the few days. I'm not usually that johnny-on-the-spot with historical quotes. I hope you got some sleep last night -- in fact, quit reading this and go get some more! *BG* -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: harpgirl Date: 28 Jun 00 - 08:54 AM oh goody, a fight!!!! mjm...you have been posting since Aopril and I don't see your real name. But you certainly are a bible thumper!!! |
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Subject: RE: PUBLIC APOLOGY From: katlaughing Date: 28 Jun 00 - 09:13 AM Nathan is that you posting under your mom's name? |
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