Aren't folk clubs brilliant?

Subject: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Free Reed
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:18 PM

Does anyone agree that folk clubs are a marvellous institution? I¹ve been going to folk clubs since 1964. Sometimes I have been bored shitless. Sometimes it¹s been a chance to catch up with old mates. And sometimes something has happened. And it¹s for fellowship and the chance that something might happen that I¹ve been going to folk clubs since 1964.

Can you think of any other cultural cornerstone that has been so utterly dependable, so utterly unchanging these last 30-plus years? And what about all the big names that the folk club circuit has generated?

An evening in a folk club is little different now than it was 30 years ago. Except that (some) people play and sing better now than they did then. And perception of what proper beer is all about has improved the quality of the average pint. Other than that, it¹s down to the floor singers (some arresting, some with a little way to go yet) and the guest.

Sometimes you wonder why you turned out. Other times you witness something wonderful. I love it! I wonder what all you other folkies think.

FreeReed

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 06:54 PM

I was BORN in 1964...... hooray!! After an evening out with the gang from the office, all of whom are at least 10 years younger than me, I feel much better!

And in answer to the question - bellringers - they never change. (well they do actually, it's part of ringing bells, but you know what I mean!)

LTS

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 07:21 PM

I agree with the above postings. I love the Folk Clubs, but they only exist in Britain. I just wish there were similar instititions in America. There ARE organisations which call themselves folk clubs, like the Folk Club of South Florida, to which I belong and whose organizers do a wonderful job promoting and encouraging folk music, but they are not the same as British Folk Clubs. I miss them all, the clubs in Scotland (especially Glenfarg ) and the ones in Sussex (particularly the Royal Oak in Lewes.)

Murray (feeling unusually homesick)

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Morticia
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 07:44 PM

Well, a folk club was responsible for my meeting my husband so they've got a lot to answer for!!( just joking, dear). As a past organiser of one, I'd agree that they are a unique institution,often hosting the wonderful and the woeful at one and the same time.The audiences are probably the most tolerant to be found anywhere and often the most humorous and non-judgemental a bunch of human beings too.Much like the 'cat,( with a few exceptions).

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 01:36 AM

In San Francisco, there was a folk club founded and run by singers Dick Holdstock and Allan MacLeod, who had many great acts from the UK and U.S. plus local floor singers. Dick and Allan's warmth and their welcoming personalities personified this club. Even if a particular main performer didn't meet xpectations, you could always count on seeing friends and catching up on things, and there was always another night to look forward to. Regular floor singers included the Mudcat's own "Riggy." The intimate, friendly atmosphere is hard to beat, and I will definitely seek out a few folk clubs if and when I get to England. San Francisco's Castle Folk Club sadly closed doors very recently. Hopefully there's another like it in S,F's future.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 02:39 AM

Funny, I know at least 4 couples who met as a result of a folk club, and even more that parted because of one!!

Folk clubs are responsible for my drinking beer (real ale to everyone outside of England or under 25), singing rude songs in public and some memorable amourous experiences! No, I'm not going to spill.....

Folk clubs are not responsible for me meeting my SO, that is Micca's fault entirely.

LTS

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: GUEST,Hilary NZ
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:47 AM

Murray -
folk clubs don't just exist in Britain - we have quite a few here on the other side of the earth (New Zealand) and there are hundreds more in Australia (but we don't talk about that place much...)

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Naemanson
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:22 AM

Caution: Possible thread drift alert!

I run a coffeehouse in Maine. I set up the format based on a coffeehouse I ran with my girlfriend (now ex-girlfriend, she got the coffeehouse in the split). Our format is to open the doors at 6:00 and let the musicians jam for an hour. Then we start an open mike which runs to about 8:45. Finally, at 9:00 we get the featured performer up on stage for a 45 minute set.

I have not been inmusic in any other country (or even province or state on this continent) since I rediscovered folk music so I don't know. What is the format for the folk clubs you are talking about? What do you do that I might be able to steal (er, borrow) for my coffeehouse?

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Kernow John
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 10:55 PM

I've just finished hosting an evening at our Folk Club with 10 floor singers/musicians and Vin Garbutt as the guest. What a magic evening!! May folk clubs roll on for ever.
Regards Baz

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:10 PM

Hi chanteyranger, sorry to hear that that Castle Folk Club has shut it's doors. Dick & Allen have done a great job with it over the yrs. I first remember it in the very eary 80's (was it called the Edinborough Castle back then?). Last time I was there was around 12 yrs ago, RiGGy took me there will I was visiting in-laws, got to see some old friends hear Lou Killen & ended up as the not so local floor singer. I do hope you end up with another club the likes of that one. Barry

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 12:26 AM

please define "folk club". I've a feeling it means different things in the various geographical locations.

To me in the middle of the U.S.A. it meant a BAR (pub) that was open seven days a week (probably) with folk entertainment of various kinds each night of the week.

Coffeehouses were not "folk clubs"--they were folk coffeehouses--a whole other animal.

And then there were the folk clubs that had memberships. And those held concerts maybe in a back room of a pub or in someones home or in a church basement or other small concert spaces. These might be called FOLKLORE SOCIETIES too. They might have song circles on another night somewhere else. Dances too -- in a larger space.

But the actual CLUBS were bars--saloons--pubs--nightclubs.
Many places in the U.S. these went out of fashion when we grew up--got married--had kids and wanted more wholesome places to listen to the music. Then the daytime folk festivals became the preferred place to hear the music.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:01 AM

Art (and everyone) -

I can define it as I've experienced it at the Castle Club in SF. Dick and Allan purposefully ran it along the lines of a British folk club, but I'm interested in hearing from others here too on their definition and experience of a folk club. It was held in a room upstairs from a bar - at first, the Edinburgh Castle Pub, as Barry mentioned (hi, Barry), then it moved to another bar that had a back room. It was an intimate setting, with seats for about 40 persons. Performers were booked to do a gig lasting about an hour and a half to 2 hours. Before the booked main act, Dick, Allan, and two to four "resident" singers would get up before the audience and sing 2 songs each. Residents were the club's handpicked local singers who were there regularly to sing. Then the main act was called up, and after an intermission, when people could go to the bar for a pint, a "floor singer" would do 2 songs. That was a guest who was not a regular resident singer. Then the main act would do a second half. Tickets were sold at the door only - always very reasonable admission prices. There was also a raffle one could buy tickets for. Winning tickets were announced at intermission andprizes ranged from records/tapes/CD's to gag "mystery" prizes wrapped in plain paper. At the Castle, one could see the likes of Alasdair Fraser, Louis Killen, John Roberts, The Copper family, Sileas. I imagine folk clubs around Britain are run with varying degrees of formality/informality as to whether they are concert settings or singing sessions. That's the (long) story here. p.s. to Barry: I left you a personal message. Did you find it?

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:50 AM

There is more here Does anyone really like folk clubs?

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: GUEST,Hilary NZ
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 02:23 AM

Thanks Shambles - just read all that thread - missed it at the time coz I was in England for a few weeks and I'm now lamenting not being able to visit any folk clubs while I was there. We never seem to be able to find any when we go over - must try using mudcat next time.
Down here (Hamilton, New Zealand) we have a "club night" first Monday of the month (Monday is awful I know but that's how it's been for 30 years!) then sporadically we have concerts in between that of visiting artists - we have Jez Lowe in October. People get in free for club nights if they perform, otherwise it's only a couple of dollars. Concerts vary. We love getting travelling musicians at club nights - and would buy them a beer at least! (although it would be cold and fizzy...)

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:23 AM

Hi chanteyranger, sorry I didn't get & can't get your message, as a guest I don't get this benifit but my is active so it appears that I can recieve when I can't. Anyway my e-mail is ( [e-mail] ). See ya. Barry

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Catrin
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 08:39 AM

The format of folk clubs seems to differ from place to place - even throughout sunny Manchester. There three i go to on a fairly regular basis, and others that I pop into occasionally (o if I had more money and time). One is extremely traditional, welcoming people who want to sing unacompanied trad english stuff. The songs are dissected after each singing - as is the way they were sung. In contrast to this, I go to another one where 'anything goes' from beatles to country to whatever anybody feels like singing. Muchmore raucous and boozy. Another one (several actually) consists of a group of musicians playing excellently but in the background. And so it goes. There seems to be no rules other than those that are made by the people who run them and who turn up to sing.

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Kernow John
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 04:17 PM

It's interesting what Art says about growing up, having kids etc. I find that the audience we are getting at our club are what Harvey Andrews calls the 'Empty Nesters'. Those who's kids have now married and left home and they suddenly remember that they enjoyed the folk club atmosphere and decided to re-visit it.
Baz

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 04:29 PM

Having lived in several areas of England and Scotland iv'e visited many excellent folk clubs and enjoyed splendid music, hospitality and done my best to help to keep brewery workers in their jobs.( thats a good excuse eh ). Added to that iv'e heard many fine floor singers who sing for the friendship and enjoyment, singers don't compete, everyone is appreciated and that is why folk clubs are great - I only wish some were better attended, I often hear people say they used to go to folk clubs regularly some years ago in the 70s etc.

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: GUEST,cujimmy
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 04:32 PM

that is my message above, jimmy

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:54 PM

LTS I was born in the same year, what month?

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:06 PM

How common are these clubs anyway ?? Does every small town have one or do you have to travel to find one? Or do they only exist in the larger cities. I doubt that the concept would catch on here in America. It would be nice to have one around here.

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Les b (U.K.)
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:23 PM

I have been a folk club goer for about 35yrs (with about 15yrs off for good behavior) and I love them. They come in all shapes and sizes and generaly seem to fulfil most peoples needs, ie Trad, Contemporary, Sing arounds, Musical sessions, Big name artists. You takes your pick. Unfortunately it seems to me that we are all of an age, we see good young performers as guests and welcome them with open arms, but I rarely see many youngsters frequenting clubs. Festivals yes, clubs no. I would like to know what it would take to get the next generation of folkies into clubs. Is it something that comes with age? Although I started going to clubs and festivals from the age of 17, but that was a different time. Or maybe there are lots of youngsters in clubs in other areas (I'm in the N.W. of England). Anyway whatever the answer is go out and enjoy them. See you at Saddleworth, Warwick, Whitby and Fylde Then it's back to the short days and long nights.

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 08:09 PM

An evening in a folk club is little different now than it was 30 years ago.

Apart from the fact that the average age is a lot older. Back then it was mostly people in their 20s/30s, and a few token older; now it's people in their 40's,50's. 60's... and a few token younger ones. That's not a criticism, it's an observation.

But what was true then and is true now is that it's one of the few places where people of all ages are welcomed both as punters and performers.

There'll be another wave, and it'll take a slightly different form.

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 04:57 AM

Isn't church a similar institution - communal songs - socially aware friends and a regular club day?
Just a thought from a devout athiest
When I got divorced I married "Folk" and been faithful to it also.
the pleasure may not be quite (arguably) intense but certainly more frequent!

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: running.hare
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 07:16 AM

"and a few token younger ones."

I must admit to being one such token. I'm 20, & the seem to be very few others under 35ish.

I've only reasently discoved folk clubs (the 1 night a month, in a pub type) When earlyer this year a long established local folk club had to move, & ended up in the skittle alley of my Villages pub.

& yes In that short time "brilliant" has been my conclusion.

-Lizabee (the baby newbie)

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Jock Morris
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 09:46 AM

McGrath, too right about the average age. When I started going to folk clubs 8 or 9 years ago I tended to be the youngest person there, I still am!

Scott

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Arnie
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 03:09 PM

Here in SE England (Kent), we seem to be blessed with folk clubs in almost every town. My regular club in Deal started in the '60's at the end of the pier. It closed for about 10 yrs and then re-opened in a local pub. Since then it has moved around a bit mainly due to getting slung out when 'mine host' changed or the brewery decided to charge rent for the room.We've been in our present pub for about 8yrs which is probably some sort of record. I could visit a folk club every night of the week (I think) within a 15 mile radius. Most follow the same format of one or two floor singers nights, with a guest about once a month. The atmosphere is informal and even the rubbish I knock out is appreciated - or maybe they're just being polite.....

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 01 - 11:38 AM

here in the Wash DC area, we have a a number of places that have 'folk oriented' entertainment on various nights...but very few which become a 'folk club' for an occasional evening..(that is, a few 'sets' interspersed with an open mic and group singing).

There used to be a couple which came close, but lately there is just no critical mass, except for LOUD bluegrass or LOUD Irish. A guy with a room/pub/bar can make more money catering to other stuff.

There still are a few places where you can go once a month, if you can brave the traffic, high prices and and tendency toward singer/sonwriter wannabees, but NOTHING like the Red Fox Inn of 20 years ago....*sigh*

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jul 01 - 01:39 PM

If you're looking to see if there's a folk club in any particular place, the EFDSS Web Directory is a good place to try. (But it's not by any means complete, since it's dependent on people keying/sending in the info).

I know myself that while at one time my folk music would be mostly clubs, it much more likely to be sessions or festivals these days. This change the music - less of people performing to an audience, more people making music together. But it's got a down side too. Swings and balances. I think clubs and sessions need each other. And they need dances and concerts and other things as well as well, all happening alongside each other, generating a local musical community.

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: bill\sables
Date: 22 Jul 01 - 08:03 PM

In the early 60's in the Durham / Newcastle on Tyne region of Northern England folk clubs were very popular with the Birtley Folk Club every Wednesday run by Jack Elliot. Newcastle Folksong and Ballad Club every Thursday run by the High Level Ranters. Marsden Folk Club every Sunday run by the Marsden Rattlers and I used to run the Shotley Bridge Folk Club in North West Durham every Tuesday. In those days closing time was 10-30 so we used to start at 8-00 pm. Usually by 10 past 8 the "House Full" sign would go up on the door. In the area we were in we had a steel works and a major hospital both of which worked a shift system and so out audience would change week by week. The room held about 200 people and we had a guest singer every week. At 8-00pm three of us who had formed a small group would do about 2 songs or tunes followed by other floor singers with 2 songs each. At around 9-00pm the guest would do a half hour spot then there would be a break with a raffle (Usually the guest's LP as a prize). Floor singers would then get up again till about 10-00 and then the Guest would finish the night with encores till about 10-40. This seemed to be the format in most clubs in the region and lasted till into the 70's. We were affiliated with a morris team and a country dance team and so we held celeidh's about four times a year . Almost all of the songs were traditional or modern songs written in the trad style. Club members never seemed to visit other clubs in the area and so a guest singer from outside the region could probably do about two weeks locally without having to change his songs. It was about 97% listening audience and about 3% singers / performers but they all joined in with chorus's. It seemed in those days everyone went home having enjoyed a bloody good sing and a bloody good laugh.
It seems to me nowadays that if I go to a club most of the audience are singers and a lot of clubs run every two weeks or every month so I am never sure that it will be on that particular night. There seems also to be a rift between folk dance and folk song. Musicians also tend to have sessions without singers. As someone said earlier the young ones don't come to clubs any more but they do attend music sessions and the standard of musicians is getting much better.
I personally liked the club scene better in the "Old Days" but that might be my age remembering the good times of youth.
Bill

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 01 - 07:59 PM

the standard of musicians is getting much better

That's true enough. Though it's possible to be too clever about that kind of stuff.

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 07:06 AM

Havn't been to a real folk club since the 1980s but had great fun when I did frequent. Stopped when took up Morris dancing - then life drifted into sessions and bands. Mr Red being a fellow devout athiest - since when did churches allow you to drink lots of beer and smoke and chat during performances ??? I think folk clubs probably have the edge there!!!

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:48 AM

In many ways I feel sorry for the young performer to-day. In the 70's & 80's, there was probably somewhere in the region of 60 clubs within 1 hours drive of Glasgow and Edinburgh. Each city had 2 or more clubs, each town had at least one, and many villages had a folk club.
As a semi pro band, with day jobs, we were playing 5 clubs a month as guests, and also visiting as many again as floorspots. The same opportunity I had, to learn to perform and build confidence, is just not there for the new performers.
These days it's a struggle to keep one club on the go in the cities. That platform is still there for the newcomer, if you can persuade them to cross the door, but after that there is little chance for them to go further.
Back then you could sit and wait for the phone to ring, and the invite would come in, now so many artists are chasing so few gigs that organisers can fill their diary on incoming calls alone.
This is not a moan by the way, I've had my shot, it's a lament for those who come behind, may they find new places to play,
love, john

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:31 AM

Fewer clubs, but a lot more sessions. It's swings and roundabouts.

Two practical reasons why the folk clubs developed in Britain were because on the one hand there were a lot of pubs with function rooms which were underused, and the law was sticky (as it still is) when it came to allowing live myusic in the bars.

Function rooms where you can have a private club are becoming far and few, with pubs reorganising themselves, and charging a lot for using them.

Many clubs have been killed by that kind of thing - and they are also up against a culture in which the idea of mixing generations is very much out of fashion.

My impression is that the clubs that are most successful are the ones that have developed into bnecoming the centre of a wider range of folk-related activities.

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 04:30 PM

I can't tell what folk clubs in the UK are like at present, as I haven't lived there for over seventeen years. I do remember Chris Smyth's wonderful folk club at The Cap and Gown in Reading. People who dropped in to do floor spots included Mike Cooper, Bill Zorn and Phil Beer (together), Simon Mayor and Hilary James, Johnny Collins, Bill Boazman, Maggie Holland, Richard Cox-Smith (often) and Richard Digance. Some of the gigs weren't bad either... The Downs and Outs at the Waterloo in Cholsey (circa 76/77)was short lived but magnificent and The Bull at Nettlebed, (near Henley)while difficult to reach, had a great room, nice people and a good pint. I hope there is something like that still going on, but folk clubs seem to come and go. You really need to set up something where an audience developes into being a group of friends to make the whole thing last for any time.

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:48 AM

I'm in great accord with bill/sables. His last contribution brought a flood of great memories. Hexham Folk Club in the sixties and seventies. Blessed with a good resident band--"the Marras"--- and situated in an area which was a hotbed of talent; so much so that many of the guests confessed to feeling "in competition" with the floor singers. Small wonder when you consider the quality of the "just dropped in"s---The Ranters, as a group or as individuals, Jim Sharpe. Benny "the Whale" Graham,Stephan Sobell [aye--Stephan the instrument maker]and a host of others. We hosted Battlefield,Five-Hand Reel, Archie and all of the other Fishers [except the lassie in Oz]The Grehan Sisters Finn Macoull, Danny Kyle,The Furies, Barbara Dixon, Vin Garbut [who slew me in merely tuning his guitar]. Ach----it could take all night! Happy days-----

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: GUEST,Denise:^)
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 02:10 AM

I'll admit right off that I didn't read every entry in this thread, but I'm wondering about Murray's comment 'way back at the top of the page: There are no folk clubs in America, just organizations that promote folk music...

Are we referring to clubs where people go to make music, not only to listen? I know that there are a lot of folk groups that put on concerts and coffeehouses, and that's great--keeps the 'big names' of folk music fed & clothed. The folk society that I belong to, however, puts on very little in the way of formal concerts. We exist to make music ourselves. The mainstay of our get-togethers is jamming and a "song swap," or open stage. Everyone is welcome to contribute, from the beginner to the professional--and they do!

I don't know if there are many other organizations like ours out there, but we've been going on for almost 30 years now...almost as long as I have!...

...and, yes, I think it's brilliant!!

Subject: RE: Aren't folk clubs brilliant?
From: 8_Pints
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 07:52 AM

I suspect that Les b(U.K.) is right about the question of the younger generation attending festivals but not folk clubs.

Could this be a fashion trend or could it be that they want to do something different from their parents?

It might mean we have to wait for the generation after to rediscover the 'folk revival'.

See you at Fylde Les.

Bob vG

Subject: Lyr Add: IF IT WASN'T FOR THE SONG
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:48 AM

I hope I've got the line breaks right this time; if not, apologies. This is a lyric of mine apposite to this thread I thought you might like. Cherry Hinton Hall is the site of the Cambridge Folk Festival.

"If it wasn't for the song"

I was raised like most on Rock and Roll
And Elvis was the King
Then washboards and those thrashed guitars
Made Skiffle seem the thing
But deep inside I always felt
that I did not belong
And my life would not have been complete
If it wasn't for the song

Chorus;
Songs to make you dance and sing
Songs to make you sigh
Songs to make you laugh or bring
A tear to your eye

Then one night on the radio
Came ballads good and fine
They told me of the herring shoals
The old grey funnel line
I vowed I'd learn their every word
Sing them loud and strong
And my life would not have been so sweet
If it wasn't for the song

I found a club, and every week
I'd take the bus up West
And I'd sing out with the Spinners
And McColl and all the rest
And there I found the girl who's been
A partner my life long
But our lives would not have been so sweet
If it wasn't for the song

And with the kids we'd take our tent
To Cherry Hinton Hall
And we'd hear the best the world had sent
To entertain us all
To festivals we went each year
Joined the happy throng
And our days would not have been so sweet
If it wasn't for the song

For 40 years our folk club's been
A place where all could come
We started with no instruments
But now there's bass and drum
There's some who say our day is past
They may be right or wrong
But their lives will never be complete
If they don't have the song