Sponsorship and Sacred Cows

Subject: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 05:58 PM

Since the guest in the thread about pictures at Mariposa didn't start a separate thread on this issue (maybe he/she doesn't know how to yet) I thought I would start one myself.

Sponsorship is a knotty issue because of the connections that are made between performers, organizers and sponsors. What experience have Mudcatters had in organizing festivals with and without sponsors? What are the differences between these festivals and those that are sponsored? At Mariposa I was not and organizer but a volunteer and performer so I also have been splashed with the Royal Bank tar. The stages all had sponsors, Casino Rama, Couchiching Conservancy, Starport Landing... I forget the rest. But there is sound equipment and performers to be paid as well as rental for the toilets and other sundry expenses. I'd like to hear ideas on how to pay for all of this without making ticket prices so high that only corporate executives can afford to get in.

As for sacred cows.. I have now met Rick "Moooo" Fielding (did I spell that right?) and I think he is a gentleman who is quite capable of defending himself, without bullshitting, on the net if he feels it to be necessary.

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:31 PM

I think he only uses two o's in Moo.

Many of the things we used to enjoy have now become so pricey that to do them without sponsorship would be impossible. I've been a sailor for years and I hate to see the phenomenal increases in advertising that racing boats now carry, but without it? No racing boats.

Folk is probably one of the last things to feel the dollar crunch. Can't say I'd be too happy to see a Ford logo on the front of someone's guitar or a Nike banjo head, but the dat may be coming simply because of economics.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:37 PM

What is it about them that has become so pricey? Are we expecting more for what we pay?

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: bbelle
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 06:49 PM

Soph ... part of it has to do with the "promoters" ... they've gotten greedy. Also, everything just costs more ... all the rentals, etc. I don't think the entertainers are the ones causing the costs to go up.

'spaw ... now that you mention it, I'm going to contact Budweiser to see, if I sport a picture of the Budweiser can on the back, they will front me the money for a vintage, small-bodied Gibson.

moonchild

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: MMario
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 07:13 PM

plus event insurance, "performance" fees, etc

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 10:56 PM

I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that performers are getting to expensive or blame them in any way.

I guess what I'm asking then is have things changed significantly in the last 30 years as far as financing festivals go? I know that prices have gone up in the last few years, they have everywhere, but I don't ask for sponsors to buy my shoes. What is it about organizing festivals that makes sponsorship seem inevitable? Can we find ways to make it not inevitable? I have helped organize a small, local festival here that works without sponsorship but it also doesn't pay anybody, we're all volunteers, and a lot of supplies are donated. It works partly because its small. Does size matter?

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: bbelle
Date: 13 Jul 00 - 11:01 PM

soph ... you're being too sensitive! I knew that's not what you meant ... I was just pointing out (in my not so humble opinion) the obvious.

I've done a tremendous amount of event/convention planning and donations are tantamount in keeping down costs. But it takes a tremendous amount of time to get those donations, as I sure you are aware, and not everyone has the time or inclination to do it. Everytime I would come off an event, I would vow to never do it again. But I did because I enjoy it. I also vowed never to complain about anyone else's event planning, as long as I didn't have to do it.

moonchild

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 01:18 AM

Everytime I or any of my friends take the guitar out to play a festival we're confronted with corporations, big and small. The Jazz Festival is sponsored by DuMaurier, and we know that cigarettes kill millions. The Ottawa Folk Festival is sponsored by Nortel, and they oppress millions in Latin and South America. Nylon guitar strings are made by Dupont...do I really want to support them?

Nine tenths of the audience at a folk festival have jobs (or they woudn't be able to afford a 60 dollar weekend pass),so the only way a poor person could be there is to volunteer (or be one of the musicians).

For me it boils down to selectivity and how much I'm willing to compromise my morality. I play for free for the Ladies Garment Workers Union, and charge as much as I can when asked to play for The Autoworkers Union. If the Humane Society (animal protection) asked me to play, I wouldn't charge. The Art Gallery? As much as they think I'm worth.

It's kind of making peace with yourself, with as few compromises as you can live with. For example, I haven't taken a bar job in twelve years now, because the drunks spoil the atmosphere for the rest, and I refuse to be a jukebox (which I was for a few years). I no longer use agents since getting computerized, and haven't had a manager in several years, 'cause I want to make my own decisions. Figure I've lost quite a bit of money that way...but I'm a lot happier. Same with Record Companies. I was with RCA, and a couple of other "corporate" companies but left pretty quickly. When Sandy Paton asked me to go with Folk-Legacy (a non-corporate company if ever there was one) I could have kissed him! I'm with Borealis Records now and it's owned by Grit Laskin and Bill Garrett who are two men I truly respect.

It's all compromise, and naturally I'd rather see a Granola Company sponsoring a festival than a bank, but I can live with my choices.

Thanks for starting this Soph. So glad Heather and I are starting to get to know you.

Now where's that anon. person who started things? You don't think he's really...oops too easy to figure out who the flamers are these days!

Rick

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Marymac90
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 02:07 AM

The Philadelphia Folk Fest is large and essentially unsponsored. Virtually all the labor is volunteer, except for some contracted services, like rent-a-cops and port-a-john cleaners, etc. For some committee heads I'm sure this is like having a second job for 3-6 months of the year.

While the fest usually get some well known performers, (often those who "cross over", and draw some fans from country, rock, or pop), a lot of their performers are not so well known. A friend of mine wonders why they don't get corporate sponsorship, so they can afford top folk acts like Doc Watson, etc. Personally, there are other changes I would push first, if I was in any position to do so.

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 02:28 AM

Well, I dunno. I guess the corporations are here to stay, and maybe we need to find opportunities for human contact with corporate people, so we can gently persuade them to become more humane. Getting money from them puts us in contact with them - if they're sponsoring a concert, no doubt they'll show up and listen to us. Animosity and boycott may not be the only way to improve things. Maybe positive, one-on-one human contacts will do more good. Perhaps accepting corporate sponsorship is akin to buying stock in oppressive corporations, and then showing up at stockholder meetings to speak our piece.
Maybe demonizing corporations and refusing all contact with them is not the best solution. All people are human - it's up to us to draw out the humanity in them.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 08:38 AM

So you take the money and dedicate a performance of Utah Phillips "All Used Up" to your sponsor!!

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 09:26 AM

Joe,

Well said.

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 01:27 PM

The Philadelphia Folk Festival is legendary among those who care about such things. Several things they have going for them: Best location (for artists and promotion) in the universe. Consistant organisation. Got started at the right time. Always good performer word-of-mouth reports.

In Canada, Home County Festival, and Blue Skies get the same respect. I don't think Blue Skies ever gets involved with Corporations.

Just from a personal standpoint though, I've seen equal stupidy and greed in "one issue" radicals as I have in the "corporate sector". Primarily because the leaders of both sides share the same blind ambition. Only the mode of dress and amount of tofu consumed is different. How would folks feel if Churches sponsored Festivals? Many of them let us play our dinky little concerts in their basements. Although now that I think about it, it seems the only churches that DO get involved are the very liberal ones. Guess folkies are still considered "dangerous" in some quarters...but not dangerous enough to scare off Bank sponsorship.

Rick

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: DougR
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 02:30 PM

A lot of those same corporations a lot of folks rant and rave about employ people, who buy tickets to go to festivals and concerts. If we had no corporations, a lot of people would be looking for jobs.

If a festival costs $50,000, and in order to keep tickets priced at reasonable levels the maximum amount that can be earned from that source is $25,000, the other $25,000 must come from somewhere. Symphony orchestras, opera companies, dance companies, theater companies learned this long ago. Look at their printed programs and you will likely find a long list of corporate sponsors. I think it's perfectly logical that promoters of festivals would look to the corporate community for financial help.

DougR

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 02:52 PM

Let's face it folks, the corporate sponsorships of damn near anything is what keeps them going. Both Rick and Doug have made the salient points. Additionally, whatever it is that motivates these giants to cough up some money, whether it be for advertising or to atone for corporate guilt, it is still up to everyone to decide each "issue" for himself. We are not really different than the corporations. We do things to promote our interests (attending some event) or we assuage our guilt by NOT participating, taking a stand if you will, no matter what its "big picture" impact.

There are plenty of folk gatherings, but the cost of them keeps climbing too. It has trickled down to the level where many activities are still too costly even at their lowest levels and if the events are to continue, then sponsorship is inevitable. The "Folk Tradition" may be one of the last to be facing this and also one of the hardest to find sponsorship for. The day will arrive, as has happened at Mariposa, when the smaller businesses will no longer be able to foot the tab and then we must decide the "issue" of supporting things which we might despise.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: DougR
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 06:03 PM

Spaw, I think you are absolutely right. The folk movement is coming in late as far as corporate sponsorships are concerned. Most non-profits have been knocking on corporate doors for years. Do any of the major instrument manufacturers or music publishing companies or recording companies provide support for folk festivals? Just curious.

DougR

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: bill\sables
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 07:34 PM

Does anyone know if Taylor guitars sponsored Old Songs Festival? They did give away 3 guitars as raffle prizes but I'm not sure where the raffle ticket money went, I would hope it went to the festival.

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 07:57 PM

The only festivals I have been personally involved with were small, community "contest" type things. We did get businesses to sponsor (ie, buy) trophies, and sold advertising for the program booklet. We also "sold" vendor privilges, but I doubt that this would be enough to put on a large festival.

As far as I know, the Walnut Valley Festival in Winfield is un-corporately sponsored,(I could be wrong, but I have never seen advertising on stages, etc.), but WVA IS a corporation now. Tickets are around $60 for a 4 day pass. I think, probably, the City of Winfield gives money, but not sure. All of the prizes, usually instruments and cash, are donated by the instrument companies. McSpadden Dulcimers, Taylor Guitars, etc. I know that the vendors are juried, and pay a fee but do not know what it is.

I did ask the Head Promter, Bob Redford, once, where the money came from, and he would not tell me. I don't know if it was protecting his investment, or something shady. I truly doubt the latter.

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 09:29 PM

Doug, I know that you and I are often (not ALWAYS) on different sides of the fence, but I'm glad you're here guy. You too Spaw, even though I think you FELL on the fence once too often!!

Rick

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 10:28 PM

Yes folks----I can see it now---------It's the "Gran-ol-a Opry".

Recently McDonalds bought the United Center where the Chicago Bulls play. They're renaming it THE MACARENA.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: sophocleese
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 10:31 PM

AAARGH!! Art that was awful, I bow to your mastery. Could the Mudcat sponsor you in a pun off somewhere? Preferably somewhere really far away....

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 11:08 PM

Bill, the Old Songs website says "Thank you, Taylor Guitar, for sponsorship of the 2000 Old Songs Festival." I think Taylor donates the guitars, and Old Songs gets the money.

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Marymac90
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 11:42 PM

Martin raffles off one guitar at the Phila. fest, and I think the money goes to the fest. The tickets are pricier than Winfield or Old Songs, I'm pretty sure. (If I kept stuff on my desk organized neatly, I wouldn't HAVE to guess!) Their crafts are juried, so only the hoi polloi of crafters can get in to sell things. I suppose one thing that helps keep Phila. going without sponsorship is just that one HELL of a lot of people pay to attend.

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 14 Jul 00 - 11:50 PM

Hi Art, I just thought you should know that at our local singer's session (Boston) your line about "bovine" was started by Kat Eggleston & I finished with your punch line, she tuned & said "do you know Art Thieme"? I guess you're just well done all over (he, he). Barry

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 12:32 AM

We had sad news the other day. The treasurer (1994-1999) of our Alaska Folk Festival was arraigned yesterday on charges of having embezzled thousands of dollars from the festival. As someone said, that's like having a nephew of Mother Teresa rob Mother Teresa. Our little folk festival, where everyone is a volunteer! It costs about $50,000 to put on but the actual festival week is free. It's paid for by concerts during the year, memberships, corporate ads in the brochure and by selling t-shirts, mugs and posters. They've tracked about $12,000 missing; the guy admits to having taken $3000-4,000. He pled Not Guilty yesterday.

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 01:35 AM

Well, Rick, I suspect Spaw is afraid of heights or something. Anyway, doesn't it just make good sense for promoters of folk music festivals to go to where the money is to subsidize festival costs? Which is the most important, making festivals available to performers and fans, or trying to "make a point" with those who do not agree with our political philosophies? I can assure you the bank in question will go merrily along whether folk music lovers like them or not. Said, of course, in a most friendly way, DougR

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 01:56 AM

I went to the "Woody Guthrie Free Folk Music Festival" and it was $50 per person. Plus $15 per night to camp over, bring your own tent. I don't think they should advertise "free" and then turn people away for not having the price of admission. I don't think Woody would have liked it. Anyway, I hung around outside and jammed with the campers until showtime. == Johnny in OKC

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 08:53 AM

Actually, I can't remember when a festival ever complained that a "corporate sponsor" tried to "control content" of that festival.

Many folk festivals provide a forum for Lesbian/Gay issues, anti-Government songs, pro-choice messages, and certainly, rabid anti-corporate material. My guess is that the Royal Bank or Macdonald tobacco wouldn't officially support ANY of those things...but I can't remember them trying to suppress them at a festival they sponsored. Oops maybe THAT's why churches don't sponsor festivals.

Rick

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Bagpuss
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 09:01 AM

The Otley Folk Festival is sponsored by Black Sheep Breweries, which nobod seems to mind at all. Maybe because its a relatively small local brewery - and because they all like the beer???

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: sledge
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 09:12 AM

Bagpuss, I'd imagine that the second observation wins out over the first, would do with me anyway.

cheers

Sledge

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 10:15 AM

Rick,

There's a theatre company in Montreal that tours outdoor productions of Shakespeare around from park to park every summer.

About three or four years ago, I went to one of their plays in my neighbourhood park and, in a crowd of about 500 people on a hot night with no wind, there were several people whose smoking was really annoying the people around them, myself included. About 15 minutes before the start of the play, I went to the person in charge and suggested an announcement that people not smoke in the audience, that they could move off to the side if they needed a cigarette.

The suggestion was refused. I was told that a condition of their grant from Du Maurier was that there be no interference with smokers in the audience.

Mike Regenstreif

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 12:49 PM

Barry,

Which bovine line is that? "To ere is human, to forgive, bovine?" or "Heiffer joke is better than none?" Or "...

Art

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 12:56 PM

Well, Mike, if they accepted the grant with strings attached, the promoter had to abide by his agreement with the sponsor, I believe. I think that is a rare instance, though. My business was (and to some extent still is) fundraising for arts groups, and I've never had a sponsor try to dictate content before. Been at it about forty years or so too.

DougR

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 07:17 PM

Just take a good look at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago in recent times. The rooms in the place used to be named for people who loom large in folk lineage---Big Bill Broonzy, Woody, etc. Those are now mostly named for the corporations and individuals who gave the cash during their recent rehabbing of an old Library building for use as their new headquarters. ---------- And GRANT MONEY----that's a whole other ball of wax. You've got to satisfy politically correct guidelines to get to that source of big bucks. You've got to hire ethnically correct bands and performers that can be pointed at to show you've done it right and reflected the ethnicity of your area.

I'm sure this is a large can of worms I'm opening, but lately I'd rather stay home and listen to more intimate sounds on my own sound system --- folks and acoustic guitar/banjo/dulcimer/whatever---one person and their own backup----than all the pyrotechnic decibels that the super-celt bands can put out.

If this all comes down to yet another what is folk thread, well, so be it.

Love,

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Sponsorship and Sacred Cows
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 11:24 PM

YOU is Folk, Art and that should be the last word on it!

luvyakat