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Help: Which came first - wire or gut ?
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Subject: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Les B Date: 24 Jul 00 - 01:54 AM In reading the general history of banjos, guitars & fiddles, I was always under the impression that gut strings were used before wire strings were invented. However, in a recent catalog from Elderly instruments, the Irish Harp section has a blurb which seems to imply that the ancient harps, supposedly played for centuries before the violin, used wire strings, with gut strings coming along later. If so, why didn't other instruments used them earlier ? Any definitive history books or web sites that discuss this ? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Les B Date: 24 Jul 00 - 02:05 AM Sorry - should be "why didn't other instruments USE them earlier ?" |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Bob Bolton Date: 24 Jul 00 - 02:52 AM G'day Les B, Well, there actually were instruments before violins ... or Irish harps. The lute family goes back into the mists of time and assorted lyres back at least 3000 years - when wire was rare and precious (and none too strong, in bronze at best). Gut was no problem - it was there, and if it was too chewy too eat, it made bindings ... and instrument strings. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Jul 00 - 03:17 AM Answer: None of the above The earliest string instruments being simple bows, they were probably strung with rope made of reed and hemp fibers, both prevalent and usable in times well beyond 500 BC. Leather strands probably followed with the usage of gut as the logical and doable extension. Metal string technolgy took a few more centuries to develop. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny Date: 24 Jul 00 - 03:25 AM Metal strings and wires are made by the extrusion process, which requires high temps and pressures, as well as the metalurgical know-how. Definitely not a home brew project, and impossible until the invention of the open hearth furnace. Sheep guts came first. == Johnny |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Jul 00 - 03:35 AM Actually Johnny, read my previous post then add this. Sheep guts were well down the line as most primitive people didn't process sheep. Depending on the people and the continent, the use of gut from game animals native to that place came after the use of the hides themselves as leather strips. All manner of animal guts were used as time passed. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny Date: 24 Jul 00 - 03:44 AM Good point. I meant that animal gut (intestine) preceded metal strings, and there are sheep on every continent. I guess you could try leather strings but I wouldn't expect much sound. I think gut would sustain higher tension. I don't think "cat gut" was ever used, but now I wonder if human gut might have been used back in the cave man days! == Johnny |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 00 - 06:07 AM So why the term "catgut"?
For tea-chest basses back in skiffle times all kinds of string and rope were used, making quite a satisfying sound. So materials like that can work OK for some kinds of instruments. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Rex Date: 24 Jul 00 - 10:35 AM Whoo! Good topic here. Glad to see someone actually ask the question. Not much to add but I support the notion of fiber, gut, then wire. Rex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 24 Jul 00 - 10:43 AM I would actually have guessed gut, fiber, then wire. We hunted before we farmed, and I'd bet we had music since becoming bipedal. If not before. But then again you don't need to farm to have fiber, gathering can work, so hmmm. I still think that gut takes less processing than does fiber, but what do I know? VERY interesting thread! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Kim C Date: 24 Jul 00 - 10:53 AM I don't know anything about gut strings, but a book called The Employments of Women, published in 1863, mentions that women worked in factories making steel guitar strings. Now, I didn't even know steel guitar strings were around at that time. I asked the nice folks at Gruhn Guitars here in NAshville, and what they told me was that while steel guitar strings were around during the Civil War, they did not come into widespread use until the 1880s. It's my understanding, which may be incorrect, that metal strings for other instruments (i.e., violins, pianos, harps, etc.) were already in use. I would imagine that there were some plant fibers that could have been used for strings in ancient days, but these would probably vary according to geographical regions. Leather might work if it were cut thin enough and pulled taught enough. Also, since sinew was used for sewing, it could have been used for strings as well. But this is purely speculation on my part. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Homeless Date: 24 Jul 00 - 11:06 AM Banjo Johnny - yes, human gut (and skin and bone) has been used in instruments. Drums usually, tho for other instruments too. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Jul 00 - 11:12 AM I wasn't guessing, just repeating stuff written by musicologists.......you know....musicologists. If you're at a party and you see some guy talking to a group of folks who look catatonic, THAT'S the musicologist. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Les B Date: 24 Jul 00 - 12:04 PM I guess I'm wondering why - if wire strings were available for harps and pianos - they weren't used earlier for banjos, fiddles and guitars. You would think the added volume would have been a strong incentive for minstrel groups & other performers who were, after all, working with no mics or other amplification. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Whistle Stop Date: 24 Jul 00 - 02:15 PM I believe that both wire and gut strings were used on lutes in Renaissance times. Not sure the wire resulted in a huge increase in volume, as the construction of these instruments was not as sturdy as modern-day acoustic guitars, so they needed to use very light strings at low tension. I'm no expert, so that's about all I can offer. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 24 Jul 00 - 02:25 PM My hammered dulcimer uses wire. However, the instrument far predates steel strings, by my understanding. If the first hammered dulcimers didn't use wire, what did they sound like? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Gypsy Date: 24 Jul 00 - 04:16 PM Shhhhhh...don't even mention out loud near my beloved partner that a hammered dulcimer could use gut (which are quieter) strings. He thinks that ALL HD are as loud as mine. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 24 Jul 00 - 04:35 PM Shhhhhhh.... o.k...... (tiny quiet voice).....could they? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: MMario Date: 24 Jul 00 - 04:42 PM when you consider that in the 1500's and earlier artisians were capable of producing thread of both gold and silver, I am sure that metal strings for harps, and spinets, etc were possible, though expensive. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: wildlone Date: 24 Jul 00 - 04:59 PM I was at a talk given a few years ago on early instruments in church carving and the person giving the talk said that metal strings evolved in italy before the 14th century but the quality was none to good hence gut strings. I cannot remember the name of the person but she played copys of many of the instruments including rebecs and an organistrum or early hurdy gurdy played by two people. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Irish sergeant Date: 24 Jul 00 - 07:07 PM Great thread folks!! I go with the idea that gut would have been the first string used. The hunter-gatherer societies emerged first. As to metal strings, given the thread work done even in Egypt during the Phaoronic (sp) times, Metal instrument strings were indded possible, however, I believe cost is why they were rarely used. The paiano and Harp are exceptions but it must be noted that neither instrument was, until recently, affordable for the masses. Kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Jul 00 - 07:19 PM A good bit of it had to do with the constuction of various instruments too. Dulcimers have been around about 1800 years at the very minimum and have almost alway been strung with metal. The harmonics of gut are not conducive to sound. The soundboards of Piano/Dulcimer type instruments and the sound produces will not be the same in the least. But they are quite strong as opposed to early lutes and the like. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny Date: 24 Jul 00 - 09:54 PM Remember that gold and silver would not work for most stringed instruments - they are malleable at room temperature and would stretch, getting thinner and thinner the more you stretch them. I think brass would be okay, but not iron. The big advance came when steel was developed. Getting back to HUMAN GUT -- oh boy! What to do with your enemy's bones and guts .. no good to eat, so use the intestines for bowstrings and harp strings. Make flutes from his bones, serves him right! == Johnny |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 25 Jul 00 - 01:40 AM By my research, the Hammered Dulcimer has been around since The 1200's and was 'invented' by the Turkish people. Can anyone prove this information inadequqte? I am also rather keen on finding out whether those first hammered dulcimers had non steel strings. Gut would work, and this intrigues me. I have not had good luck with other metals, and the technology for steel is relatively new. A plucked violin has plenty of volume, but the ringing, oh that sweet ringing, It would decay more quickly, though the overall tone would warm up real mellow! Quick tunes would be recognizable... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Homeless Date: 25 Jul 00 - 07:37 AM Banjo Johnny - if you want to know more about how human body parts were used in (and as drums) get ahold of Mickey Hart's (of Grateful Dead fame) books "Drumming at the Edge of Magic" and "Planet World." There is some interesting stuff in both of them. The Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago has a good selection of part-human instruments also. My sister works at the museum, so I've heard some interesting stories regarding some of the stuff there. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:21 AM For a relevant song, see here
They made fiddle strings of her long black hair,
They made fiddle screws of her long finger bones. And no one's mentioned hair yet as a possible material. It'd work for a bow, but would it work for strings?
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 25 Jul 00 - 02:11 PM They made harp strings of her duodenum fair.............. Lay the bend to the bonny broom.......................... And her intestines do my fiddle wear..................... LA, LA-LA-LA, LA-LA-LA-LA, LA, LA-LA........ |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 25 Jul 00 - 03:23 PM I've seen Eastern European and North African instruments (of the bowed, one -or two string variety, mostly with skin tables) strung with horsehair; not individual hairs, of course. Better than human hair, I'd have thought, but then I haven't tried the latter. There are a lot of very similar instruments around Central Asia; these are traditionally strung in much the same way, but often with silk. Idiochord tube zithers -which go back a good long way- apparantly have "strings" of bark. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:31 PM I'd never heard of Idiochord tube zithers - so I asked my magic webferret, and it came up with that picture and lots of stuff about the Phillipines, which is where it comes from - including some song files. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:18 PM Thanks for that link. I should really have explained a bit: essentially they are a primitive variety of zither, in which the whole instrument is made of one piece of hollow wood, typically bamboo in the East, maize in Eastern Europe. "Each string is a thin strip of bark cut loose from the...stem in such a way that its ends are not severed entirely; it is held away from the stem by bridges. Such "idiochord" strings are often used singly, and their percussion character is prominent even to the point of their being played with sticks or beaters like a dulcimer..." (Musical Instruments Through the Ages, ed. Anthony Baines, 1961.) Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Irish sergeant Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:38 PM I always learn something when I visit. I have to say, I really Love this site! Neil |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 25 Jul 00 - 10:25 PM AS to making instruments from human parts, see "Binorrie", where the jealous sister drowns the sister favored by the suitor, and A famous harper passing by Binorrie, oh Binorrie! That sweet, fair form did chance to spy. By the bonnie milldams of Binorrie! And a harp he made of her white breast bone Binorrie, oh Binnorie! Whose sound would melt a heart of stone! By the bonnie milldams of Binorrie!
As to strings, don't make the mistake of thinking that the earliest stringed instruments would have had the clear notes we take for granted. Generally they would have been on the order of a tuned drum, and a fiber string would be fine for the purpose. This can be seen in the oldest relatives of the banjo still being utilized in Africa and the Middle East. So braided hair or vegetable fibers would have been very early. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: paddymac Date: 26 Jul 00 - 12:33 AM Well, I believe that Kim C. is closest to the mark with her observation regarding sinews. One reason might be that relatively uniform sinew threads can be readily produced by stripping sinew (tendons). Most hunters could probably confirmn this just from their experience of trying to rid the meat of those damnable tough fibers that take forever to chew. Sinew thread (or bands) were a commonly used binding among hunting societies where ever they occured. Multiple thread cordage was used in bows (as in bow & arrows) and where ever a stronger "thread" was needed. Any archer can speak to how bow strings "hum." Low-tech plant fiber cordage likely doesn't produce sufficient audible vibrations to be of much interest musically (I admit I'm speculating here). Horse hair is presently used in bows because of what I guess would be called its "friction coefficient", useful in making the bowed string vibrate. Hard to tell when that discovery was made, or how, but likely a long time ago. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Jul 00 - 01:29 AM Dulcimers and similar instruments such as the santir have been known in virtually every culture and many trace back 1500 years or better. Technology regarding metals was not completely unknown so its likely that they were strung with metal strings from pretty early on. paddymac.......The museum we both just were at.....Weren't you kind of amazed at what some of the banjos and fiddles looked like and wondered what sound they produced? I stood there wondering what they strung some of them with too. BTW.....Bull Roarers may pre-date drums and simple bows may have appeared for "musical" use not too long afterwards. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Jul 00 - 01:33 PM What do we know about Roman and Greek lyres? - "When Homer struck his bloomin' lyre..." Are there any instructional manuels from then still extant? And Chinese instruments from teh same time... |
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Subject: RE: wire or gut ? From: Uncle Jaque Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:29 PM One thing I've noticed about gut - I play it on both parlor guitar and Minstrel banjo in conjunction with "Living History" Civil War Reenactment and educational programs - It seems to require less tension to bring it up to pitch than steel, resulting in less stress on the instruments' structure. Another important consideration is the old friction pegs; ever try to hold steel in pitch with 'em? My research concurrs with a previous post in that steel was used on guitars during the 1850s, just not real commonly. Banjos, by the way, were routinely tuned about 2 1/2 steps lower than they are today (about Ab), making them reasonably tunable with the pegs and helping the fragile and sometimes crudely made instruments keep from imploding! They had a distinctive "plunkey" sound with a "bullfrog" low bass string, and standard chording goes right well with the old Stephen Foster songs in accompaniment to the male voice - fancy that! Gut is a little harder than nylon but softer than steel, and has a unique earthy mellowness that I have become rather fond of. They are expensive, and rather fragile; do NOT use picks of any sort on gut strings (you won't for long!) and dipping them in varnish or shellac and hanging up to dry before installation will prolong their life. I'd reccomend anyone out there with an antique instrument appropriate to gut strings to at least try them. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: paddymac Date: 26 Jul 00 - 11:11 PM You're right about that 'spaw. I was amazed at the ingenuity of the folks that made them. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Les B Date: 29 Jul 00 - 01:28 PM Uncle Jacque - Is the gut strung guitar tuned lower too ? I've seen some info that indicates they were. I assume you fingerpick the guitar and do a "stroke" or clawhammer style on the banjo ?? Do you use capos on either ? What is the volume like for audiences ? I've been cometmplating getting some of these kind of instruments and would like some firsthand feedback. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Which came first - wire or gut ? From: Les B Date: 29 Jul 00 - 06:45 PM Should be "contemplating"... oh, what the hell, thinking about ! |
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