Whither Bob Dylan?

Subject: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: balladeer
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 06:49 PM

Hi,all: Recently I noticed a Dylan thread here, which I can no longer find. I had wanted to say I think he's a genius, one of the great poets of my lifetime. But now I just want to ask does anyone know the lyrics to his It's Not Dark Yet But It's Getting There from the Time Out of Mind album? As one of the many loyalists who was crushed when Dylan abandoned us and plugged in, and who therefore hasn't listened to anything after the horror of Blonde on Blonde, I recently decided he was right and I was wrong, in that it was he, not I, who heavily influenced the course of music history.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 07:14 PM

balladeer, was this the thread? click

I disagree that Blonde on Blonde was a horror. Maybe now that you've changed your mind about Bob, you should return to it and give another listen.In my opinion, Dylan did no damage to Folk music. He just exposed it to a much larger audience, one that fancied the Beatles more than the Kingston Trio. He did expand the definition of Folk to a point where it dangerously overlaps the "Singer Songwriter" genre, an area that many traditionalists shun.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Dee45
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 07:37 PM

Not Dark Yet
Bob Dylan

Shadows are falling and I been here all day
It's too hot to sleep and time is running away
Feel like my soul has turned into steel
I've still got the scars that the sun didn't let me heal
There's not even room enough to be anywhere
It's not dark yet, but it's getting there

Well my sense of humanity is going down the drain
Behind every beautiful thing, there's been some kind of pain
She wrote me a letter and she wrote it so kind
She put down in writin' what was in her mind
I just don't see why I should even care
It's not dark yet, but it's getting there

Well I been to London and I been to gay Paris
I followed the river and I got to the sea
I've been down to the bottom of a whirlpool of lies
I ain't lookin' for nothin' in anyone's eyes
Sometimes my burden is more than I can bear
It's not dark yet, but it's getting there

I was born here and I'll die here, against my will
I know it looks like I'm movin' but I'm standin' still
Every nerve in my body is so naked and numb
I can't even remember what it was I came here to get away from
Don't even hear the murmur of a prayer
It's not dark yet, but it's getting there

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: balladeer
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 10:55 PM

Rawhide: I cannot get used to the miracle of the internet. Thanks so much for your speedy and complete response.

Lonesome: The remark about Blonde on Blonde was tongue-in-cheek. I have no idea what the album was like as all I heard was a wall of sound. Three grown-up rock'n'roll-loving sons later, the link between my hearing apparatus and my brain has mellowed. I dig Bob, don't shoot me please....

Thanks for the pointer toward the Beatles thread, but the one I was after was Bob, all Bob, the good, the bad and the critical.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: balladeer
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 11:05 PM

And by the way, EJ, I don't regard Bob Dylan as folk hardly at all. He gives the term singer-songwriter a good name. What other contemporary poet has made so many complex and powerful pieces of art? And taken some of them to number one with a bullet? Thanks for taking the time.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 11:10 PM

Why question genius? Take a chance that he might have hit on something that you haven't gotten to yet.

Unless, of course he's just a self-serving buffoon with a knack for stringing words together. Kind of like Rod McKuen with a free pass to the studio.

Listen to the Bob Dylan Live 1966. Both discs.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 11:13 PM

I listed this one in Joe's Singer Songwriter Links that he was adding to the FAQ thread, but balladeer, is in an excellent site for BOB DYLAN LYRICS.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: balladeer
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 11:30 PM

Catspaw: Thanks so much for the Dylan reference. I already have every word he wrote up to and including Nashville Skyline. This completes the set. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 11:54 PM

Dylan did not "abandon" anyone when he plugged in. They abandoned him. The folk purists made the common mistake of confusing style (rock music) with substance. They assumed that all rock music was by definition without serious substance. They were proven VERY VERY wrong about that by Dylan most of all, and by a number of other artists as well. Dylan was simply so far ahead of his audience that he left half of them breathless in the dust. Like the Poor Immigrant they "heard but did not see". Dylan did what absolutely had to be done, and he was the one who had the courage to do it first. After Dylan they all did it. "I made shoes for everyone, even you, and I still walk barefoot". Dylan is not just a folksinger, though he has been a folksinger at times...he has been just about everything that a songwriter can be...except typical or predictable or mainstream. Dylan is the most profoundly revolutionary thing that has happened in popular music in the last 100 years. Judy Collins refers to him as a "national treasure". Gordon Lightfoot calls him the "best songwriter of them all". So does Joan Baez, and she should know. Dylan's folk audience in 1965-66 was blissfully unaware of the fact that Bob had already been a country singer (a la Hank Williams) when he was in his early teens, a rock and roll singer and band leader (a la Little Richard) when in High School, a blues singer (a la Leadbelly, Blind Willie McTell, Cisco Houston, Sonny Terry & Brownie McGee, Robert Johnson, etc., etc.) in his later teens, a Woodie Guthrie fanatic around 19 to 21 years of age, a folksinger par excellence for the next couple of years (whereupon he became very famous), and then by God something unlike anything anyone had ever seen or heard of before when he did 3 utterly astounding albums in 1965 to 1966. Who else has written such songs as "It's Alright, Ma" or "Gates of Eden" or a host of others too numerous to mention. Who else keeps rewriting the old songs, with new words, new music, new inflections...busy being born, not busy dying. When Dylan plugged in in '65 he was simply returning to a kind of music he already knew very well (from his High School days) and taking it into whole new realms of awareness that touched on every serious human issue you can mention. To listen to the Live 1966 ("Royal Alber Hall") concert is just incredible. You've got this audience with a collective consciousness that stops functioning when the same guy plays the same brilliant stuff...only on an electric guitar instead of an acoustic. Man, what a pompous and superficial bunch of people. Now I'm not giving anyone at Mudcat a hard time here, I'm just looking back to how it was back then. Dylan did something incredible. He broke every rule, and he scared the daylights out of people. When people get scared, they get angry...but there was nothing to fear. All they had to do was shut up and listen. David Bowie saluted Bob for that..."he led some people forward and put the fear in a whole lot more". Yeah, Bob, by God you paved the way for all of us, and no one can put a value on what you did, and no one who was there to see it will ever forget it.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Mbo
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 11:58 PM

Hear hear, Little Hawk!!!

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: balladeer
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 12:12 AM

Little Hawk: I certainly agree with everything you say here - and say so well. But in my own defence, as one who has openly admitted tuning out when Bob plugged in, let me say I feared a return to the mindless, meaningless pre-Dylan, pre-Beatles lyrics of pop music. But in the spirit of full disclosure, I'll add that I was a young folksinger myself in those days, mining each new Dylan album for songs I could perform. So you see, selfishly I did fear being left in the dust. I had no personal aspirations toward playing electric guitar. I could just get by on my Martin steel string.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 12:48 AM

.....sniff..sniff.......whiff............do I smell a discussion here.............whiff..............

Hmmmmm...........Tell you what Little Hawk, depends on who sees this thread as to whether or not you'll be let alone on your statement. Its not a new topic around here at all and you'll get lots of agreement on some points, like a general concensus on his first couple of albums. But you might have a few show up here with an argument or two...................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: bbelle
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 01:10 AM

I love some of Dylan's stuff; I hate some of Dylan's stuff; and I play and sing some of Dylan's stuff. And I usually don't get involved in these Pro/Con Dylan threads. But what I really love is someone who will stand up for what he thinks, state his case succinctly, and not back down.

Good on ya, little hawk!

moonchild

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 01:14 AM

Yep Moon....on that I wholeheartedly agree.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:54 AM

Moonchild, it's good to hear from you. I thoroughly enjoyed your contribution on folksingers and the sexual revolution. I consider you a kindred spirit.

Little Hawk (George Coventry)

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: bbelle
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 11:49 AM

George ... that's what I'm seeking ... a kindred spirit.

moonchild

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 04:28 PM

*sitting on my hands, lest they stray to the keyboard*

*big grin*

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: bob jr
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 09:34 PM

if you see the latest tour that bob is doing you will hear at least three traditional songs (at least on every set list up to about three weeks ago) dylan has drifted back and forth from traditional material over the years but is clearly back playing lots of old folk tunes and he remains a pretty good interperter he just bothers people when he tries to claim he "wrote" tradtional songs...like on self portrait where he claimed copper kettle ,it hurts me too and belle isle songs he cant really say he "wrote"

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 10:55 PM

Yeah, that's true...he didn't write those, of course, just did his own arrangement. It might have had something to do with the top brass at the record company or the publishing company...or not...who knows? Bob ain't perfect, but then, who is? My friend, John Ashe, has a bootleg CD with live outtakes of Dylan doing nothing but traditionals and one by Jimmie Rodgers (I think...) called "20-20 Vision". Very cool stuff. I love Dylan doing traditionals. Check out the "World Gone Wrong" album. A superb acoustic collection from the early 90's.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Ritchie
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:47 AM

On the wall of the 'Club A Gogo' in the young set (which was THE 'In' place in Newcastle in the 60's) there was a poster which stated "If my thought dreams could be seen, they'd put my head in a guillotine." I was too young to go into the Jazz Lounge. I wonder what Bob had to say in there ?

regards ritchie

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 01:32 PM

If any of us had thought-dreams which could be seen, someone would put our heads in a guillotine for sure. Thank God for freedom of thought! Bob, as usual, was speaking in universal terms.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: bbelle
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:25 PM

Just heard an advertisement ... The A&E Channel is airing a Bob Dylan Biography on Sunday, August 13. I've watched many of their biographies over the years and have found them to be unbiased, so this one may be good, as well.

moonchild

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 08:32 PM

Hey Moon.....I just saw that too!!! I love the program and find them to be generally excellent. We'll have to come back here and post thoughts. Do you guys (LH, bob,jr.) get A&E in Canada?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: GUEST,Steve Latimer
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 12:09 PM

Yes we get A&E. I'll be sure to watch.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 09:51 PM

Wow! Great! It's in the evening of that day, I presume? Thanks for the heads-up.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: balladeer
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 10:31 PM

Does this mean Bob Dylan is now part of the Establishment?

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: bbelle
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 10:33 PM

little hawk ... it will be in the evening, probably at 8 PM. I'll put a reminder on the forum that day.

balladeer ... I rather doubt it. A&E frequently biographs people who are not of the establishment.

moonchild

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 10:47 PM

Bob Dylan has the respect of the Establishment, but he ain't part of it. No sireee. Nor am I. I may have the good fortune that the Establishment is barely aware that I exist...probably a good thing.

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: celticblues5
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 06:47 PM

Tee hee, Little Hawk! Reminds me of when we formed a group to bring political speakers to our hs (many moons ago) and my mother went around wringing her hands and moaning, "omigod, you're going to make your father lose his security clearance!" Naw - ya don't wanna have the Establishment notice you!

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: bbelle
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 07:03 PM

Threadcreep ... my father was a "spook" for the Navy and for RCA and it wasn't unusual for my neighbors in Washington, D.C., to tell me that some "guys" had been snooping around the place. They didn't know they were my "unseen" bodyguards. I was always trying to elude them, but when I participated in the Candlelight March across the 14th Street Bridge, to protest the war, October or November 1969, they wrote up a whole report and sent it to my father. Oy! ... he was very upset with me and told me I should have used a disguise. So, yes, it is better if the Establishment doesn't know you're around.

moonchild

Subject: RE: Whither Bob Dylan?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 07:14 PM

Amen to that. The Establishment noticed Buffy Sainte-Marie was around, that's for sure, as we've already discussed. I think in Dylan's caae he was just too big, and besides, they couldn't quite understand his lyrics well enough to figure out what was really going on. He was too poetic for them.

"Something is happening here, but you don't know what it is, do you...Mister Jones"

and

"The naked truth is still taboo whenever it can be seen"

and

"I've seen thousands who could have overcome the darkness. For the love of a lousy buck I watched them die..."

and now

"Eden is burning. Either get ready for elimination, or your hearts must have the courage of the Changing of the Guards."