Drugs & The North

Subject: Drugs & The North
From: Lox
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 07:32 AM

Here's a new perspective on Northern Ireland.

1, According to research, wherever you go in Belfast, east or west, you will find the same drugs being sold across the board. (Apparently the ecstacy in Northern Ireland is the best in the British Isles) The same types of drugs hit all areas at the same time i.e, If a particular type of Hashish becomes available in west belfast, it becomes available in east belfast simultaneously.

2, We know that small time drug dealers are likely to get into a great deal of trouble if they are caught by their own particular "unofficial" paramilitary "police force" (Knee capping, baseball bats and the like.)

3, It is clear that the drugs trade in The north is alive and well, otherwise there would be no hash to smoke, etc.

4, It can be deduced that the paramilitaries, having such a brutal way of controlling the drugs trade, are involved in it up to their necks.

5, Taking my first point into consideration, it can also be deduced that they recieve their supply from the same source(s)

6, An effective way of keeping control of such a lucrative business would be to ensure that peoples paranoia is kept as close to fever pitch as possible by bombing or shooting civilian targets on a fairly frequent basis.

- Each community is angered and scared into focusing on ancient history, believing their troubles to be derived solely from religious enmity and the paramilitaries are thus given a perverse legitimacy. (The wall stays up!)

- In the meantime, as the wool is pulled over their eyes, the real bandits, the mafiosi at the higher echelons of the chain of distribution, rub their hands together gleefully, and watch the money roll into their coffers.

I'd be interested in hearing whether or not this is the experience of anyone living in the North who 'mudcats'.

It would be a strange thing if the North of Ireland was the only place in the world where there isn't some kind of Mafia that was prepared to kill people in the name of a quick buck.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 12:29 PM

Well Lox.....I think you have hit the nail on the head as far as the the paramilitary leaders wanting and having the control of the drugs.....even though they will as you say, hand out their own punishments to others making profit not going to them! As for 'same sources' for the drugs it is very likely as the leaders of these organisations who do nothing to get their own hands dirty.....just sending out young men to do the dirty work for them. These same men are also involved in 'protection rackets' extorting money from shops, which incidentally I read about in a report in a Belfast paper where paramilitaries from both sides of the divide were asking for exactly the same amount of money from one shopkeeper on the same day!!!! Collusion or what?? Also as you say, religious enmity is blamed by the various communities but wrongly so, as realistically there's a lot of money to be made from the 'troubles' leading to the continued suffering of the innocent. All credit to you Lox....you're on the ball!!!

Subject: RE: Drugs & Anywhere
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 01:12 PM

Maybe its time to legalise it, Lox, eh?

B.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Willie-O
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 01:59 PM

Funny you should mention that, Brendy. The Supreme Court of Ontario two days ago declared Canada's marijuana law unconstitional. The grounds for this finding was that the government has acknowledged that some people have legitimate medical uses for pot as an appetite stimulator, and anti-nausea drug, and has granted 57 individuals the right to use it without prosecution--but the law needs to be rewritten completely to clarify how someone can qualify for this exemption, and how they can legally obtain the drug which the current approach has not addressed at all. (It's legal for them to posess it, but not to buy it, or for anyone to sell it to them.)

The court declared that the law will be null and void one year from the date of the decision, unless it has been rewritten to address these questions.

One of the other big stories in the news this week is, surprise, biker turf wars for control of the trade.

Willie-O
Straighter than a judge.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 02:19 PM

It's a sad fact, Willie-O, that no matter who smokes, injects, snorts...whatever, they have to buy it from an illegal source.
Here in Norway, the trade is mostly associated with the Kosovo Albanians.
The Hells Angels and The Outlaws have had their gun battles at the airport here, and in Copenhagen, and as we know, when one group of suppliers go, another one is sure to step into it's place.

I have no knowledge as to the specifics of the drug trade in the north of Ireland, but I would imagine that if the trade were to be left in the hands of others, the problem wouldn't go away.
'Mafias' are always replaced by other 'Mafias'. That is a fact of life, and like it or not that is the way it will always be.

If the extasy in the north of Ireland is the best in the Islands, well, in a lot of ways I have to congragulate these people, irr-espective of whether the kick with the left foot, or the right.
With all the arbitary quality standards set by un-controlled drug barons, it is a relief to see that at least in Ireland, they seem to have their shit together.

I have no big axe to grind on the drug issue. I do believe, however that de-criminalisation and legalisation is the only sensible way forward.

B.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: alison
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 09:54 PM

Maybe I was just naive or didn't move in the "right circles", but I wasn't aware of drugs in Belfast during the heart of the troubles, but we knew they were in Dublin... then a few ceasefires later they moved into the North. the only time I was ever approached and offered drugs was in a disco last time I was home (1994)......

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 11:12 PM

Seems to put a whole different perspective on The Troubles. I am sure InObu (Larry) will have something to say about this, and probably Conrad the ***Peasant. I don't know, and I have thought about the legalization issue for years, and still don't know about that either. Interesting.........

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Brendy
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 12:42 AM

I don't think it does, Sorcha. Put a whole different perspective on the war, that is.
Friend Lox is making a few statements, and stringing them into some sort of Socretean argument.
Let's have a look:

The reason for his first point, may well lie in what he informs us in the second.
His third statement is probably true; the same can be said for most countries in the world at this moment in time, so there's no big surprise there.
His fourth point is a deduction that he makes given the validity of his three earlier points; his 'un-official police force'

I have heard stories of people getting knee-capped etc by both dides of the political divide in the north of Ireland. Heroin and Crack dealers who the RUC have had complaints about for years, yet have chosen to do nothing about.
These Crack and Heroin dealers, of whom a lot used to hang around schools and youth clubs, are the one's I believe Lox is talking about being beaten, or forced from an area.

And to be honest, I don't see too much to complain about there, especially since it has been a long term 'policy' of the RUC to disregard any pleas for assistance concerning residents associations, and the like.

Lox's fifth point is lost on me, as to it's relevance.

But he really gets it wrong, Sorcha in point 6.
Lox contends that the armed struggle is just one big smoke-screen intended to further secure any perceived monopoly certain paramilitary organisations seem to have.
That is utter nonsense, Lox. I'm sorry, but it is.

The only thing potentially keeping me apart from my Protestant brother, is the conditioning that we have had. The paranoia exerted by the British Government, their dirty war in Ireland, their 'stirring of the pot' when things looked like they were going forward, somewhat; you can take Enniskillen as an example of that.
All of this paranoia and distrust of each other was perpertuated by them to keep us, the working classes, apart. For further reference on this, I would invite you to read accounts of the Belfast Riots in the later years of the 19 century, and the early years of the last one.
A simple case of 'Divide and Conquer'

Hatreds are fomented that way; when people start looking towards what religion you are, ergo - what cultural grouping you are, to assess your worth.
That is the struggle, Lox. To break down these walls, which the British establishment raised and topped with barbed wire.

You will find that 'ordinary' crime exists in the north of Ireland, as anywhere else. If you walk into the wrong area of Oslo, with the wrong kind of attitude, you can get a knife stuck in you just as easily as I would, if I walked into a pub on the Shankill Road, and said "Fuck the Prods". You can get mugged in Belfast, same way you can get mugged in othe cities. I don't have any recent crime statistics to hand, but I'm sure it's no worse than other places

I'll tell you this, though.
It would be a very foolish person that started to sell heroin and crack in residential neighbourhoods in the north of Ireland. In the absence of any interference by the soon to be former RUC, who would just love to see a whole society strung out, and therefore much more manageable, how would you keep your streets free from these low-lifes?
For this I am grateful. And if our brothers and sisters on both sides of this ridiculous religious divide all smoke the same hash or grass, well, it just gives us something more in common. We already drink the same beer, whiskey, and stout. And quite a lot of us play the same music.

If you are worried about the drug problem in general, and it's impact on world's society, well, you cannot really focus on paramilitaries on either side of the divide in the north of Ireland, and ask that the start be made there.
That's something for you to take up with your Government representative.

Peace and Love,

B.

PS Click Here

Couldn't agree more.
10 4

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 01:25 AM

Thank you, Brendy. I know that I am largely illerate on the Irish issue, in spite of trying to keep up. Sometimes, keeping up just seems impossible, esp. when it seems impossible to "get" the religious issue. I know that drugs are pervsasive to any modern society, and I was curious about this particular statement. I know that the issues here are not Simple, but I can't help thinking that an island as small as Ireland really should have a United government, even if the people disagree about the damn religion.

It is difficult for me as a Far West American to REALLY understand the difference between Prod and Catholic. To us, the differences between C of E,(which I believe is mostly Prod in Ireland) and RC are so minute as to be almost non existent. Ask any "American" Episcopalian (i.e. C of E) just why they are different from RC's and most of them will not be able to answer.

There are SO many differences among the Proddies here in the States that it is hard for us to understand the basic difference between Prods and Catholics.

PLEASE PLEASE understand that I do not use "Prods" as a denigrating word, it it just easier to type than Protestants, which after all, did mean the Protesters in the first place.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 01:53 AM

Sorcha, I don't believe the protestant/ catholic is a reason for division. Many countries have members of both living side by side without trouble. I would suspect it was originally just an identifyable difference between those on both sides of the political fence in Ireland and therefore something else to fight over.

As for not understanding the troubles in Northern Ireland, I am not sure who fully understands it regardless of where they live. I live a lot closer to Ireland than you and the British Government is involved in it and I, like many over here really haven't much of a clue. Most people I know just want to see peace over there but have no idea how, when or even if it will finally be achieved.

Jon

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 02:19 AM

I know, Jon, and I just wish it would happen for whatever reason, and whatever the underlying/historical/ehtnic causes are. There are too many people suffering (world wide) for such petty differences to matter.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 03:49 AM

"If you want to go to Ireland, go everywhere. You are 1000 times more likely to get run over by a car than to suffer harm at the hands of the paramilitaries."

That's a statement by Lox Brendy has linked to with approval in his above post.
The correct figure for the years from 69-98 would have been 2 instead of 1000 (the statistics are easily found on the web) and there have been years in which there were more deaths due to paramilitaries than to cars.
Both Brendy and Lox have strong opinions but they like to overstate their points.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Brendy
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 03:55 AM

Makes a hell of a lot of difference from 6 million.

B.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 04:36 AM

Brendy, don't you think 'point granted' would have been a more appropriate and just slightly nicer response?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 07:18 AM

Hi folks:
As to my knowlege about the drug problems in Ireland, I can only add some anadotal evidence, which may or may not shed light. In the sevnties when I was in Belfast, there was vertualy no drug deeling to my knowlege. In fact, in 1977, there was some violent house cleaning in the IRA to remove rising gansterism which happens in any war, but is seldom dealt with because the gangsters are on OUR SIDE, as both sides see their gansters. The gangsterism had to do with housing alocation and such, and to my observation ended when the IRA cleaned house - to use a uphamisem for a number of often violent solutions. War unfortunatley brings out the worst in everyone. By the eighties England was making alogations of drug deeling by the IRA. The IRA responded by pointing out that the drugs came into the country with the common market, and that it was international buisness men that brought the drugs, and to prove their non-involvement passed a sentence of death on anyone selling herion (the big dangerous drug of the early eighties).
Now the drug ecconomy and drug culture are like a bath tub tap being turned on and the taps unscrewed. It is very hard to turn off the tap once opened. I remember the first time I saw anything to do with drugs in Kerry, about 1976, a fellow, maybe an american, I don't recall, asked my friend Fergus where he could get pot. Fergus put down his instrument, hauled him out of the pub by the scruff of the neck and pointed him up the road (east) and told him not to come back to town. Those days are LONG gone in Ireland. As drugs have come to Ireland, and I think the Republicans were right, with the common market, it insinuates itself into the general ecconomy. I don't have any evidence of Repulicans deeling drugs, as it never came up in any of the trials I was involved in. However, if the IRA was seling drugs, you can bet, in the US where drug convictions are on the same par as murder, in fact often treated more serriously than murder, when trying to make their case that the IRA was a terrorist organisation (which the state department and England failed to do in every extradition case they attempted) they NEVER gave evidence of IRA drug dealing. I may be wrong, it is hard to prove something by a negitive, but that leads me to assume the IRA and INLA were not involved in selling drugs. If anyone has more concrete info that they were, I would be interested in hearing about it, but please, give some sort of sourse so we can wiegh its validity, like a court case, so we don't deal with rummors here.
All the best,
Larry

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Brendy
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 08:29 AM

I haven't heard or seen any evidence to support these theories either, Larry.

In the rush some people make to attribute every event or statistic that crops up, to the direct involvement of the IRA; a syndrome that occurs from being constantly exposed to Whitehall spin, they often forget to supply that evidence.

We often forget to ask ourselves the question, "Who are the IRA?"
The IRA are the Irish Republican Army. They only exist in the context of a of a struggle for freedom and justice. There is nothing in their manifesto (to my knowledge) to align them with any other cause but that.
When resident groups in Dublin got together in Ballymun and Tallaght, and marched on the houses of known heroin dealers, and disrupted their trade enough, that they were forced to re-locate, did the newspapers and broadcast media blame any organisation on it?
No. It was the action of concerned residents, they said.

Now put that in the context of the north of Ireland, and see where all the scenarios could go.

We have to be very careful about where we draw the line, here, and what is attributable to whom.
It may be popular to belive that every form of nefariousness that emanates from the north of Ireland can be laid at the doorstep of this "omnipresent" IRA. It cannot.

B.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: GUEST,Sandy
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 09:12 AM

It seems to me that as always in discussions about Northern Ireland the blame is placed upon religion. The paramilitaries on either side of the divide are not 'religious'. Those who fight and continue to inflict violence in Northern Ireland wouldn't know what the inside of a church looked like......as the expression goes... 'they just know what church they are staying away from!!' Good and proper Catholics and Protestants don't believe in death and destruction, they believe in the 10 commandments so killing isn't an option. The extremists who claim to represent the people in N. Ireland are loyalists and republicans.....not Protestants and Catholics....well not 'practicing' anyway, they are just in name only.

As for the original drugs issue, all drugs are the same when it comes down to it, whether it's alcohol, tobacco or heroine.......they all affect the brain in some way or another....and most people really don't need their heads mixed up anymore than they are already!! The drugs have no respect for whatever race or religion and whether legal or illegal there will always be people out to exploit others if it makes them a quick buck.....no matter what the consequences. Unfortunately things are identified in Northern Ireland with paramilitaries and they will make money from anyway they can.....allegedly to fight for their cause.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 09:52 AM

Wow!

Genuine intelligent debate!

Thanks. I've learned something.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 11:31 AM

Sandy:
Where are you getting your facts from. I know a lot of devote Catholics in the IRA, and I am a republican who is a Protestant (married to a Catholic - a nice Ulster girl who's peole are from Cavan - at the foot of Mount Newgent, or some other place, as the song goes). You are right that it is not about religion, but that does not lead to a logical nexis that no devout Catholics are in the IRA. If you read Brendy and my posts, you will also see that we are asking for evidence of drug selling by republicans to be verified with evidence, and that the evidence we have seen points the other way, so your last statement is also unsupported. I point this out, not to rub your nose in anything, but to challenge you to approach this disscussion in the framework of logic, as there is too much passion in the north and not enough logic. Logic is a language and an art, is is counter imotional though and sometimes counter intuative. Our feeling lead us to a conclution that is often not logical. So, stop and think if A = B than etc.
Don't get put off the discussion though, just be a bit careful in your rehotoric, please.
All the best
Larry (hoping not to sound professorial through the misspellings)

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: GUEST,Belfastian
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 11:53 AM

Just joining in to say that although I don't believe everything I read (who does?) I've seen a helluva lot of "bad sorts" (loyalist and republicans both) where local knowledge points to racketeering of some sort (the usual smuggled tobacco, fake designer gear, drugs, porn, protection money) given their "choice" taste in gold jewellery and fast cars and their reputation for links with paramilitary sorts. Perhaps not evidence that can stand up in court, but most people seem to be aware of it all the same.
Yes, paramilitaries of various breeds cry out against anti-social behaviour, but it is often accepted that some form of collusion is occurring when it comes to drugs, especially in our ceasefire days. I admire your standards regarding rhetoric and hope you won't consider my reply to be generalising an issue, but it seems to me and those I know that most of the illegal behaviour (from drugs to murder) in our beloved Norn Ireland is just all the same shade of dodgy.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 11:57 AM

Larry,

Those who advocate and perpetrate violence, on either side of the divide, may ONCE have been religious...

Peace

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 12:28 PM

In a time of civil war or insurrection or ethnic violence or whatever you want to call what's been happening in Northern Ireland, ordinary "law-enforcement" tends to take a back seat. There's been an enormous upsurge in the amount of poitin-making, just to mention one illegal substance.

Lox's conspiracy theory, like a lot of conspiracy theories, gets cause and effect the wrong way round. If there are more drugs in Northern Ireland that's more an effect than a cause. That would apply even where the paramilitaries get involved in it as a way of raising cash, the same as it is for the bank-robberies and such.

As for religion- it's not "about religion" - noone's shooting each other about points of doctrinal difference. It's about a settler people disputing territory with the native people, and it just so happens that the settlers had a different religion, as has often been the cae elsewhere as well. And as in any war, the people doing the fighting vary when it comes to whether they keep up with "their" religion.

But I imagine you'd find as high a proportion of sincere Catholics or Protestants in the various paramilitary as you would in American armed forces, or the British armed forces. Christians have never found it hard to find ways of justifying the wars they fight.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: GUEST,Sandy
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 12:57 PM

Yes InOBU you are correct in what you say about devout catholics and also staunch protestants (devout & staunch always used aren't they?!!!) that do belong to their various paramilitaries. I think the difficulty arises with the extreme militant activities and being able to justify these acts with a Christian faith. I myself am a Protestant from a Belfast family and we do want to stay British etc. but I would never take up a gun as it directly opposes God's will. I spend my Summers in the Republic...around Athlone with a strict Catholic family....without another Prod for miles and whilst we don't shout for the same side they support their side and I support mine and there isn't any bitterness between us. Whilst supporting or sympathising a cause I still don't feel I can condone violence as there have been enough martyrs in Ireland already. I know that the political way to go seems a waste of time...talking can really be the only way even when we're going round in circles most of the time!!! Unfortunately there's no logic there either!! With regard to drugs problem.....Belfastian's "shade of dodgy" is just right.....whether a person is or isn't a member of a paramilitary group, in certain areas anti-social behaviour is dealt with.....whist some of it is for the good of the neighbourhood they still have ulterior motives so they can monopolise the illegal, smuggled provisions. Good discussion going on isn't it?!!! Shame those with the power can't be as reasonable!!!! Best wishes.......Sandy

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: GUEST,Den at work
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 01:34 PM

There was always fairly easy access to soft drugs, hashish eg in Belfast in the 70's and 80's. In my oppinion it was never distributed in a major way but having said that I never dealt in it myself. I played in a Rock band at the time and it was part of that culture as anywhere else in the world really. But to say that drugs have anything to do with the sectarian divide is nonsense. I have to say that guys at the time who were dealing did fear retribution from the local provos (I can only speak to the one side of the community). I did witness a guy getting a very severe warning in a toilet in a pretty famous Belfast bar one night that consisted of his head coming into close contact with life at the bottom of a toilet bowl. His stuff was taken from him and flushed by a couple of guys I wouldn't want to tangle with. In another vein since the cease fire it seems to me that petty crime seems to be on the rise and it seems these days you hear about pedophiles and rape that would almost have been unheard of a few years ago. Just a thought Den.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 04:54 PM

Just a quick point

What I'm asking really, isn't whether people agree that the divide exists because of drugs, but rather if it's a fair deduction that they have become a good excuse for some to keep the paranoia alive.

It just seems strange that they come from the same sources and that those sources seem to bypass England, Scotland & Wales.

(The book is entitled "E" and talks mainly about the history of ecstacy in all it's chemical forms, and its effects, positive and negative, short term and long term, upon the brain. As such, it is more of a science report than a history book, but it does include some interesting little discoveries - in this case whilst discussing demographics of usage and the market place in general.)

(Book nicked - authors name forgotten - watch this space)

PS, Henry Hill, the exiled Mafia Rat, whose life story was told in the film "goodfellas", claimed that his adopted "family" were deeply opposed to the selling of drugs, yet he sold them - John Gotti sold them too despite the same "restrictions". Is it possible that the "official line" only applies to competitors and those who aren't being careful enough. Ironically enough, the Italian mafias roots are in another political group. Cosa Nostra (Our Cause) was about social justice, and no doubt considered themselves freedom fighters. The romance of this lives on in illusions of "honour" and "respect" etc.

A thug is a thug.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 04:57 PM

I almost forgot:

Are the roads in Northern Ireland really that safe?

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 04:37 PM

Only about half on-topic here. When you look at the times of prohibition in the States, the speak-easies and booze-runners pretty much went out of business once prohibition ended. If drugs were suddenly made legal, and regulated by government, wouldn't a lot of drug dealers and smugglers be out of work?

Paul.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: paddymac
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 09:18 PM

Kevin - insightful as ever. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Aug 00 - 11:02 PM

I think the only real evidence put on the record here is that of Sandy who says that those in power should be as resonable. I agree. I strongly believe that without the cold way and MI 6 abd the CIA, the masses of small individual good people who dig with either foot, would build two footed loys. Sand, our day is about to come, not a Loyalist, not a Republican day, but a day when Irlands people can sit down and talk and understand each other, becuase the cold war divide is no longer worth the cost to trick us into shooting each other when talk is cheeper. Lets make damn good work of it. I remind folks again and again that one of the major Catholic churches in Belfast was a gift from the Protestant community. Let's each and everyone call for a truth and reconciliation process and march together next marching season - march for understanding or at least talk - because we can.
God bless you Sandy
Larry
And Mcmoo my brother - don't judge lest you be judged. Not one of us knows who is saved.

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: GUEST,Sandy
Date: 05 Aug 00 - 11:01 AM

Good man Larry! God is continually blessing us isn't He? Sure isn't it thanks to Him that we can have the understanding and compassion for our fellow men? I'll see you at that parade!!!!!! regards, Sandy

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 12:38 AM

And I will bring my TWO footed loy! We can have a multi-sectarinan turf dig!
Chears
Larry

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 02:56 AM

I have a question. I live in the U.S. and pretty much all of the information that I get about the conflict in Northern Ireland is what we get on the news over here, so I don't know much.

For some reason, I had gotten the impression that the conflict was more between ethnic groups than between religious groups. What I thought I understood was that the government of England sent and supported the settlement of a large number of Scottish people to Ireland about five hundred years ago, and that most of the dispute was between the descendents of the people from Scotland, and the descendents of the people who were there before the Scottish people arrived.

Can somebody set me straight on this? Thanks.

Carol

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 09:53 AM

To some degree you are right. The reason that my family is found on both sides of the discussion is that we are not Scotish planters, but rather Anglo Irish, and as such, we are related to Roger Casement, a Republican, and I myself am a republican, my father was a Republican, though less forgiving than I of this and that, where as the Northern Scots Protestant community is more like the Southern born agin baptist community in its religious and poitcal background. However, more important, the differences have been provoked by England (and likely at the behest of the US - see any posts about the Icarus Plan, in an earlier line of posts about US/NATO views on Ireland's being a non-aligned nation). British intelligence has been found complicent in sectarian killings to keep the divide going, so that NATO can keep troops in what would have been a completely non-aligned Island. The reason for the timeing of the peace talks is the end of the cold war.
Larry

Subject: RE: Drugs & The North
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 06:22 PM

InOBU, thanks for explaining it in a way that I can understand (mostly). I can see that it is a VERY complicated situation.

My ancestors represent both sides of the conflict by virtue of coming from both ethnic groups. Cunningham and Degnan.

Carol