Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00

Subject: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 11:10 AM

There is a recent report on different styles of thinking between different cultures, comparing the linear, logical Western mind to the dialectical, more context oriented Oriental mind -- the Western mind tends to focus on objects against backgrounds rather than objects in backgrounds, nouns rather than verbs, etc. The difference between this and the usual anecdotal notions, is that these differences are being compared in similar situations under controlled conditions -- these include interpretations of photographs, arguments, and activities. What intrigues me about this is not so much that there are obvious differences, but that many of them can be found in areas that I have worked in for years, and which makes me suspect that people are drawn to these ways of thinking. Years of hanging around Zen teachers and environmentalists have made me sensitive to the completely different ways in which people describe situations -- for instance, in dealing with waste disposal, the governing structures are obsessed with garbage as objects that must be put somewhere in a landfill or somewhere, solving the problem. Environmentalists are consistently obsessed with lifestyle changes, the production and consumption streams, and recycling. I naturally support the latter: what is interesting is how difficult it is to get the other group to see the world differently. One group's foreground is another group's background: one group's nouns are the other's verbs. This is all famously true in the relations between men and women; it is amusing that scientists are creeping up on this in distinguishing the different logics of the Western and Oriental minds; I can certainly do it with environmentalists and businessmen.

The next question is: do musicians think differently from most everyone else?

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: Max
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:42 PM

I think I'm going off topic a bit.

I got upset when I started hearing about cut backs in public schools. First things they decided to get rid of was Art and Music saying they were not necessary or practical or something.

It bothered me because I realized that the remaining curriculum had very little BEAUTY in it. While Science and Math are important, there is nothing that inspires passion, nothing to trigger the brain to seek, recognize and appreciate BEAUTY. BEAUTY leads to HAPPINESS. It is a similar function of the brain to play of hear a melody as it is to paint or look at a painting as it is to be HAPPY.

So the government decides that HAPPINESS is the first thing to go when confronted with budget cuts and priorities. The schools are no longer helping us parents teach that MOST IMPORTANT LESSON in a child's education… How to be HAPPY. Yet another good reason for the Mudcat.

Rather than ponder if musicians think differently, I will propose that specifically FOLKIES do in fact think different. I'll get in trouble if I try to list my observations of the Mudcat demographic, but I will say that we are far more likely to be happy with what we got.

Don't forget to teach your children about Music and Art and Nature and Happiness, cause there is a chance that nobody else will.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: jeffp
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 01:23 PM

Max, that is a thought worthy of its own thread. I have noticed the same thing about the public schools around here and it pisses me off no end. In fact, a neighboring county is planning to reduce art, music, and play time in Kindergarten in order to provide more "academic" training to prepare them for the rigors of first grade.

How insane can people get!!!!????? I think these idiots are guilty of nothing less than child abuse! To my mind, it is no less damaging to knock the joy out of a child than it is to knock a few teeth out. Maybe worse. At least you can get false teeth. You can't get false joy at any price.

Sorry for the rant, but you seem to have inadvertantly pushed one of my hot buttons.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: MMario
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 01:31 PM

cutting the arts has been a cost saver for at least three decades that I know of...

one of my tasks when working with youth at summer camp is to teach them that it is "okay" to use their imagination. It's criminal that children in their early teens have trouble imagining things....

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 01:37 PM

My only quibble with your thought Max is that science and math, taught properly, are fountains of happiness, beauty, and imagination. It is a further indictment of the miserable situation that these are being taught for purely utilitarian purposes. Otherwise I agree. I am sure that if you started teaching joy in the schools they would have you arrested for some obscure crime.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: Kim C
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 01:38 PM

When I was in school I always thought it unfair that I, as unscientfic and unmathematical as I was, was forced to take science and math classes, while the unmusical and unartistic math & science kids were never required to come over to my side of the fence. Art and music are essential to a well-balanced education, no matter what anyone says. And I'm not sorry that I had to take the math & science, even though I have used it rarely in my particular adult life.

It's very possible that musicians and other artists do think differently, because I think most of those kind of people are right-brained, where those who are not art/music inclined are left-brained. But amongst us all, we should be operating with a whole brain!

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: Max
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 01:47 PM

I'm pretty sure that if anyone were to try to teach joy in school, they'd end up nailed to a cross, not just arrested.

Flowers Are Red
Harry Chapin

 [Em] The little boy went first day of school
 He got some [C] crayons and started to draw
 He put [Em] colors all over the paper
 For [C] colors was what he saw
 And the [Am7] teacher said.. What you doin' young man
 [D] I'm paintin' flowers he said

 She said... It's [Am7] not the time for art young man
 And [D] anyway flowers are green and red
 There's a [Em] time for everything young man
 And a [C] way it should be done
 You've got to [Em] show concern for everyone else
 For you're [C] not the only [D] one

 And she said...
 [G] Flo [D] wers are [G] red young [D] man 
 [G] Green [D] leaves are [G] green  [D]
 There's [G] no need to [D] see flowers [G] any other [C] way
 Than they [G] way they al [D] ways [G] have been [C] seen

 But the little boy said...
 There are [G] so many [D] colors in the [G] rain [D] bow
 [G] So many [D] colors in the [C] morning [D] sun
 [G] So many [C] colors in the [G] flo [C] wer
 And [G] I see [D] every [G] one  **riff**

 [Em] Well the teacher said.. You're sassy
 There's [C] ways that things should be done
 And [Em] you'll paint flowers the way they are
 So [C] repeat after [D] me..

 And she said...
 [G] Flo [D] wers are [G] red young [D] man 
 [G] Green [D] leaves are [G] green  [D]
 There's [G] no need to [D] see flowers [G] any other [C] way
 Than they [G] way they al [D] ways [G] have been [C] seen

 But the little boy said...
 There are [G] so many [D] colors in the [G] rain [D] bow
 [G] So many [D] colors in the [C] morning [D] sun
 [G] So many [C] colors in the [G] flo [C] wer
 And [G] I see [D] every [G] one  **riff**

 Well the [Em] teacher put him in a corner
 She said.. [C] It's for your own good..
 And you [Em] won't come out 'til you get it right
 And are [C] responding like you should
 Well [Am7] finally he got lonely
 Frightened [D] thoughts filled his head
 And he [Am7] went up to that teacher
 And [D] this is what he said..

 and he said...
 [G] Flo [D] wers are [G] red, [D]
 [G] Green [D] leaves are [G] green [D] 
 There's [G] no need to [D] see flowers [G] any other [C] way
 Than the [G] way they [D] always [G] have been [C] seen  **riff**

 [Em] Time went by like it always does
 And they [C] moved to another town
 And the [Em] little boy went to another school
 And [C] this is what he found
 The [Am7] teacher there was smilin'
 She said... [D] Painting should be fun
 And there are [Am7] so many colors in a flower
 So [D] let's use every one

 But that [Em] little boy painted flowers
 In neat [C] rows of green and red
 And [Em] when the teacher asked him why
 [C] This is what he [D] said...

 and he said...
 [G] Flo [D] wers are [G] red, [D]
 [G] Green [D] leaves are [G] green [D] 
 There's [G] no need to [D] see flowers [G] any other [C] way
 Than the [G] way they [D] always [G] have been [C] seen 

 but there still must be a way to have our children sing...
 There are [G] so many [D] colors in the [G] rain [D] bow
 [G] So many [D] colors in the [C] morning [D] sun
 [G] So many [C] colors in the [G] flo [C] wer
 And [G] I see [D] every [G] one

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: Pene Azul
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 01:58 PM

Yeah Max, I tried and they did. Great thoughts.

PA

Subject: Lyr Add: THEIR WAY (parody of 'My Way')
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 02:24 PM

Have you guys ever heard this song by Matt Watroba, 'Their Way' It is sung to the tune by Frank Sinatra, 'I Did It My Way' I think Peter will really appreciate this........

sung to the tune by Frank Sinatra, 'I Did It My Way'


Their Way

I came, bought all the books, I studied hard, followed directions
I worked, lived in the dorms, met lots of folks, who had connections
I crammed, they gave me grades, though may I say, not in a fair way
Oh, but more, much more than this, I did it their way

I memorized all kinds of things, all though I know I'll never use them
The courses that I took, were all required, I didn't choose them
They say that to survive it's best to act the doctrine their way
And so I buckled down and did it their way

Yes, there were times I wondered why
They made me crawl, when I could fly
I had my doubts but after,
I clipped my wings, and learned to crawl
I learned to bend, and in the end I did it their way

And now my fine young friends, now that I am a full professor
Where once I was oppressed, I've now become the cruel oppressor
With me, you'll learn to cope, you'll learn to climb life's golden stairway
Yes with me, you'll see the light, and do it their way

For what can I say, what can I do
Open your books, read chapter two
And if it seems a bit routine,
Don't talk to me, go see the Dean
For as long as they give me my pay
I'll do it their way


Bonnie

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 02:24 PM

Physics can get pretty Zen-like at times. A professor once began a lecture by asking his students to consider an object that has no mass....

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 04:09 PM

Right on, Peter! Taught properly, math and science are highly thought-liberating and creative. The same joy I feel as a music lover when I hear a beautiful ballad, I also experience when my brain is forced to the limits of my understanding and I perhaps discover something, anything.

I don't think this joy resides in either arts or science but is rather the result of an open mind that dares to experience all of life.

Back to your original question, Peter. Do musicians think differently from most everyone else?

I think mediocre musicians think quite differently from mediocre scientists. But the truly great seem to walk on both sides of the street. I know there are instances of greats in both fields that don't seem to have any familiarity with the other side. But I think the open-mindedness is there, and life experiences just don't always provide exposure to the other side.

Mary

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 04:19 PM

My thoughts on the educational problems are all over the threads and suffice it to say......Things don't work too good now, do they? Nice point Max. I'm tired of hammering on it. I just fight the fight for my boys.

Peter.....another winner. Also made me think of trying to understand German philosophers. If you speak German, its easier to understand. To some degree we are all also hampered by the language in which we think.......or liberated.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: GUEST,SANDYTOES
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 10:41 PM

TO MY DEAR FRIEND, GOD BLESS YOU!!! YOU ARE ONE IN A MILLION. AND ONE DAY.. YOU ARE GOING TO BE MY MILLION. I KNOW THAT. I WANT YOU, I NEED YOU, & MOST OF ALL.....BY DANG IT...I LOVE YOU!!! THANKS FOR A WONDERFUL, FANTASTIC, LOVING, EVERLASTING, FUN, HOT & SPICY DAY YOU GAVE ME. I LOVE YOU. YOU ARE IN MY HEART WHEN AWAY FROM MY ARMS. I LOVE YOU AND DON'T EVER FORGET THAT......I MEAN FOREVER. LOVE ALWAYS, YOUR.... SANDY TOES

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 11:31 PM

I am not sure what all that from SANDYTOES was about, but Max, you are not creeping at all. And Peter T is right on.I have ALWAYS known I thought on different lines than others, and I do not even cosider myself a "good" musician, let alone a GREAT one. Seems it has to do with "abstract thinking" vs "literal thinking". Those who can do one are not good at the other. I can do the literal thing, but not the abstract. Then, we get into:

Transferring abstract to paper--I cannot draw,etc. because of the depth perception thing. I can do literal thinking like logic,or music, but I can't put it on paper in a picture. I can do arithmetic and geometry, but not algebra. It just does not make sense to me. ( I DID do it JUST like LAST time.......)

None of this has any bearing on Joy, or Art/Music in the public schools, but see the other thread. I have done both freebies and paid, but am still abivilent about making music (and creating Joy) from my Muse.......I love to get PAID, and love to stick it to the Establishment--ie, the School District, but I also know that the kids NEED the music, and love to create Joy. One of my favorite gigs is a 1 room school house grades K-8; Ranch kids that have never even seen a violin in the flesh, let alone a dulcimer of either sort. And, I do it for free, all 4 hours of it, with about 15 instrumetnts.

Plan, Load, Un load; DO, Load, un load. The 4 hours is the actual presentation........add at least one on each end, plus travel time of 1 hour.

Sorry, (rant off)

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: campfire
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 11:36 PM

I'm sure I heard or read somewhere that MUSIC, taught in the early years, helps with math. So I can't figure out why music and art are the first things cut, either.

And I KNOW I think different than a lot of people!

campfire

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: Mbo
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 11:37 PM

With you all the way there, Sandy.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: bflat
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 12:46 AM

I'm not sure that musicians thinking differently than anybody else. I think they are likely to be more sensitive, romantic, creative and satisfied with less material wealth than folks who have not made room in their lives for "the arts." I have known many musicians who are adept at language, math and science.

I do believe it is essential to support "the arts" in public education. And where there is an absence in existing programs today, it is incumbent on each of us who value music etc. to be The Voice for the children who can not speak out for themselves.

And if you think things are too dark, then I end with this thought. You can see farther in the darkness than you can in the light.

bflat

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 02:39 AM

It seems to me that many people who are good with music, are also good with math. I'm terrible with math, and I don't really consider myself the best musician in the world either. And yet, I can't stay away from music. (Numbers, I'm happy to stay away from. I know they have beauty for some people, but they make my brain hurt.)

Maybe the question isn't really, "do musicians (or other creative people) think differently than most everybody else". Maybe the way it works is that souls who have an appreciation for beauty will naturally be drawn to it, and will seek it out in whatever ways they can, one such way being music.

This is my rant: Children are beautiful flowers and we are the gardeners who tend them. We should take care in how we do it so that their beauty will not be diminished by our lack of understanding. There.

Carol

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: bflat
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 09:00 AM

Carol,

A really good rant!!!

bflat

Subject: Thought for the Day: August 9, 2000
From: GUEST,SandyToes
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 12:12 PM

GOOD MORNING MY DEAR FRIEND, GOOD TO SEE YOU HERE. SORRY ABOUT YOU BEING ALL WET. BUT I AM SURE YOU WILL DRY OUT. AND JUST A GOOD LUCK WISH FOR YOU TONIGHT. I LOVE YOU AND WISH YOU THE VERY BEST. YOU KNOW MY HEART IS WITH YOU, EVEN THOUGH I AM NOT. YOU ARE IN MY THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS ALL THE WAY TO THE END. AND I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT....JUST DO YOUR BEST AND REMEMBER WHERE YOUR HEART AND SOUL ARE. LOVE YOUR FRIEND ALWAYS, SANDY TOES.....YOUR "BEST FRIEND"

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:25 PM

Sorcha, I can do the abstract thinking but have a problem with literal.

The education system seems to use a "scatter-gun" approach - give the greatest number of kids the most adequate education possible. The kids who have different ways of learning or viewing the world are left to succeed or fail on their own. It seems teaching methods are getting narrower these days because schools don't have the resources to teach kids who are a bit different. The square pegs are forced into round holes. Being an abstract thinker, when someone tried to teach me as if I were a literal thinker, I didn't learn. I also thought I was stupid and therefore disliked certain subjects.

An awful lot of us who were educated in the US went to school when they still had things like music and art classes. It's frightening to think of what the lack of these things is going to do to the average public school student, and as a result, society. As far as the not-average students, it seems like the "different thinkers" either must conform or be dropped through the cracks here in the US.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: Crowhugger
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 02:39 PM

Peter, I can just picture the 'disposalists' saying the same thing about environmentalists in their chat forum. They must be musicians, since they didn't fall for the either/or set-up of your question. :)

Mary in Kentucky and CarolC express best what I've seen.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day- Aug 8,00
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 09:34 PM

Crowhugger, I don't understand what you are trying to say.