Frank Proffitt banjos

Subject: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:19 PM

Bank in about 1960, I acquired a handmade, black walnut fretless banjo made by Frank Proffitt. I played it for many years, but in the 1990s, the original possum belly head finally wore out. I was reluctant to replace the orginal head but I wanted to be able to play it so I got a former neighbor of Proffitt's, Clifford Glenn Clifford Chase, to replace the head (with goat, not possum). Meanwhile, I bought one of Mr. Chase's beautiful hand-crafted fretless banjos which is similar in style and construction, but more carefully made and 20 years newer. I don't use the Proffitt banjo at all now and might consider selling it, but not until I can get an idea of what it's worth. Anybody have any idea?

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:27 PM

Why don't you send Sandy Paton a personal message. He was a good buddy of Frank proffit's and you are probably aware that Folk-Legacy recorded Frank several times.

Rick

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: KathWestra
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:28 PM

Be sure to send an e-mail to Sandy Paton ([e-mail]) and ask him for his thoughts. Also Jeff Warner. Both not only have Proffitt banjos, but long personal histories with the Proffitt family, and with the Beech Mountain, NC, community and its music. Kathy

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: KathWestra
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:30 PM

Great minds! Hi Rick. We were obviously typing this original thought simultaneously. :-)

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Jed at Work
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:30 PM

I am curious aboutthe answer, too. So please come back and post any info you find. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:44 PM

Occasional Mudcatter DADGBE will probably also have an opinion. I sent him an e-mail and alerted him to this thread. If he doesn't respond, send him a personal message, and he'll respond sooner or later.
-Joe offer-

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:47 PM

Loving Frank Proffitt, I would be real curious too. Sandy ought to have some worthwhile info.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 01:32 PM

Wow. That's a lot of responses in a half hour! Thanks for the suggestions. I'll e-mail Sandy immediately. Gee, I just noticed that in my original message I referred to Clifford Glenn as Clifford Chase. Sorry.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From:
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 05:50 PM

Bob. Can you give details about where Clifford Glenn can be contacted about the banjos he makes.

Thanks

Murray

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 07:03 PM

For Murray (and anyone else who's interested, Mr. Glenn can be reached at the following address and phone number. If buy one of his banjos, you won't be sorry. And his wife, Maybelle, makes a wonderful quilted fabric carrying case. Don't forget to tell them that Bob Baldwin told you about them.

Clifford Glenn 631 Big Branch Rd. Sugar Grove, NC 28679-9636    828/297-2297     

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 07:24 PM

Just a side note before Sandy arrives.......

If you have never been to this area of North Carolina and you have any interest at all in the music and instruments and general lore of Appalachia, you need to go. Several dulcimer makers in the general area who are some of the best anywhere, including John Mize, who's dulcimers are on display with the Smithsonian. Mr. Glenn is also well known as a dulcimer maker and the area where he lives, Beech Mountain, is a treasure of mountain singing and mountain lore. BTW, its also the home of another picker of some note (:<)), fella' named Doc Watson whose home is in the same county.

If you go, headquarter yourself in Boone and see the Museum at Appalachian State and make your day trips to all the places you will not regret seeing and hearing. You can pick up an informal session damn near anywhere. I walked into a music store in Boone, got to talkin' and the owner and I played a bit. Within an hour there were about 10 folks all having one helluva' good time and pickin' on the yankee they thought was OK.

Go.....You'll love it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 08:11 PM

Thanks, Spaw.

You are right. I would love it. I wish I could go right now.

I used to live in Greensboro NC in the mid-1960s and spent a lot of weekends in the mountains, visiting and jamming. I got up to the Carroll and Grayson County area of Virginia more often than I got to NW Carolina though, because it was closer.

Sometime in 64 or 65 my wife and I set out to visit Frank Proffitt, taking with us my old fretless that he'd made. One of his kids told us he'd gone into the hospital just a few days earlier. He never came out and I never met him.

I did get a chance to meet and play with Sydna Myers of Hillsville, Va. and Bascom Lamar Lunsford of South Turkey Creek outside Asheville. Our first visit to Mr. Myers' cabin was one of the more memorable events of my life.

Also back then, some really good old timers were annual contestants at the Galax Fiddlers' Convention where I had the pleasure of meeting Wade Ward, Kyle Creed, J.E. Mainer, China Poplin and many others. At Union Grove and the Asheville Folk Festival there was Red Parham, the incredible George Pegram, and a blind fiddler called "Lost John" who I only heard once and whose last name I never learned. Maybe you or some other Mudcatter can help me out and let me know if he ever made any records.

I visited Clifford Glenn last year and wish I'd had a chance to meet his mother who lives next door. She's a great, traditional storyteller.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 12:47 AM

I'm afraid I'm not going to be much help on evaluating the old Proffitt banjo. I really know nothing about the general value of instruments, and I'm often stunned by the prices I see placed on some of them. In this case, the value would be determined by the desire of the purchaser to have an original Proffitt instrument, even though the original "possom belly" head is gone, replaced with a goatskin head by Clifford Glenn. Glenn, by the way, makes wonderful instruments at very reasonable prices. I used to sell both banjos and dulcimers for him through Folk-Legacy's catalog. Anyone wanting to try their hand at a fretless banjo should write to him.

I'll ask around and see if I can come up with a ballpark estimate on the Proffitt instrument. If I learn anything, I'll refresh this thread.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 09:08 AM

Thanks, Sandy, for your help. By the way, Sandy's absolutely right about the Glenn banjos. I visited Glenn to have him replace the head on my Frank Proffitt banjo. When I saw Glenn's banjos, I had to have one. I don't remember what the price was, but it was remarkably low.

Subject: Westmead Bachelor Request
From: GUEST,Arkansas Red-Ozark Troubadour
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:17 PM

Howdy, Can anyone out there supply me with the English words to "The Westmead Bachelor"? Having a dickens of a time finding them. Thanks-

Arkansas Red-Ozark Troubadour Eureka Springs, Arkansas [e-mail]

---

This question transferred to this thread (click). Please post replies there.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:53 PM

I've been looking around the net and can't find much info pricing wise without posting to a list group.

It always seems to me that most folk instruments outside of guitars go all over the board. Guitars have such appeal and are in great numbers so the pricing gets pretty understandable even for the rarest stuff. Not that you think the price is great or anything, but the collector market is so much bigger in guitars that the prices are almost standardized. Mandolins strike me as being second with banjos 3rd or lower.

I'll keep looking.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 08:04 AM

Thanks for your interest and help, Spaw.

I called Mugwumps and couldn't get a very clear idea. He thought maybe $300 because there aren't many people looking for this sort of thing. On the other hand, there aren't very many authentic, playable FP banjos available. I'd much rather hang on to it that sell it at that price.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 08:10 AM

LOL....I have a feeling that if you wanted to sell it at that price, there'd be a bit of a stampede around HERE!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 08:49 AM

Spaw, would Elderly Instruments have an idea? "Round here" doesn't limit your options these days. If you were to sell it on E-Bay and tip off people who might be interested (banjo and folk newsgroups, mailing lists, forums such as this) you might get a very high price, and you can set a reserve.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 05:15 PM

I might just offer it on ebay (the Frank Proffit, that is -- not the August Pollman shown in my pic).

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 06:18 PM

Just a bit of thread creepage...
Is Clifford Glenn related to Leonard Glenn? I have one of his (Leonard's) dulcimers.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 06:26 PM

You have a wonderful thing there Jeri.........Leonard is the father of Clifford and has been doing his thing for over sixty years.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 07:03 PM

Well, I'm wrong agin as usual. I got to wondering if he was still alive and found he had died in '97. He had been building instruments most of his life, but he only atarted building dulcimers in the 50's. Still, a long time!! Here's a Brief Bio with picture.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 07:21 PM

Thanks Spaw. This dulcimer was my first stringed instrument, purchased in '73. It's simple and beautiful, and I don't play it enough.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 08:21 PM

Leonard's wife is still living. A wonderful storyteller. She lives right next door to Clifford and Maybelle. This family may someday be as legendary as the Proffitts.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: DADGBE
Date: 21 May 03 - 01:59 PM

Thanks for the e-mail Joe. I'm answering it only 3 years after you sent it. Must be getting more prompt in my old age.

The Proffitt banjo which can be seen being played by the maker in the photo on a CD of his work put out by Folk Legacy is my favorite instrument. (Get Folk Legacy's releases of Frank's work if you haven't already. They're extraordinary!)

The instrument languished around casa Paton (then in Vermont). A couple of tuning pegs were missing and the back had warped by the time I first saw it about a year after Frank's death. Sandy dug into his stock of treasures and found some unfitted pegs which Frank had carved and gave the instrument and pegs to me: the greatest gift I've ever received.

It's walnut and fairly crudely fashioned. It shows hand tool marks and may have been made without power tools. The original skin appeared to be possum and had been stained with the same brown wood stain as the wood. That head disintegrated long ago. I replaced it with goat skin and flattened the warped back at the same time. The original bridge was also hand made of the same wood. After it cracked I made a walnut replacement based on the original pattern.

The only modernization is a set of fine tuners which are walnut beads which slide on each string just above the tailpiece.
It's played often and love greatly.

THANK YOU SANDY!!!!!

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 May 03 - 12:27 AM

I had one once.

Art

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 24 May 03 - 03:37 PM

I've got one now.

Jean

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 06:35 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: chip a
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 10:49 AM

Jan Davidson, director of John Campbell Folk School has one. He left it for me to play at a jam a few months back and it was a great little banjo. The inner sleeve looks to me to be a piece of stovepipe! I had a similar banjo for years which was built by Gordon Parris from Hayesville, N.C. It had a sleeve made of 6" pvc pipe! Stovepipe is the superior tone ring!

For those of you not familiar with the Folk School, have a look at thier website. Just the place for your next vacation. Ask Jan to let you see the Proffitt banjo when you get there.

Chip

http://www.folkschool.org/

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: oombanjo
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 03:17 PM

If any one Knows John Les ? who runs the Conway festival (Wales) Email([e-mail])John was saying that he has a Frank Proffitt for sale, and that it has F.Ps. name still etched into the origional possum skin. This was at the begining of June so I think that he still has it. Happy Bidding.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Iris
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 07:02 PM

Frank Proffitt is my grandfather. I am the daughter of his youngest
son, Gerold Proffitt.
The banjo signed by my grandpa is very interesting!

I'm very amazed that people still remember him all these years!!

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 07:22 PM

Last year we saw Mark Dvorak perform for the first time. I was dying with curiosity about one banjo he had on stage; I'd never seen anything like it. I can't say for sure now if he said it was an original Proffitt, but if not it was of that style. Mark used it only to play "Tom Dulla" as Proffitt did it.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 07:51 PM

Iris, it's wonderful to hear from you! We don't just love him for his banjos; we also sing his songs. I must sing half a dozen songs that came through him. It is a treat to know you're out there.

Dan

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: RTim
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 08:59 PM

I am an Englishman - and think Frank Proffitt was wonderful - a truly great American musician. Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: fretless
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 11:22 AM

Iris, thanks for resurrecting this thread. As you are hearing, there are a lot of us out there who admired your grandfather for his playing and singing as well as his craftsmanship.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Cool Beans
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 11:49 AM

It's funny how we live on in unexpected ways, how Mudcat confers odd immortality. Downeast Bob (Robert F. Baldwin), my dear friend and frequent musical accomplice, died just about a year ago, November, 2007. At memorial events at his home last summer all the aforementioned instruments were either played or on the wall keeping watch.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 11:53 AM

Here in Michigan, Matt Watroba plays some of Grandpa Proffitt every once in a while on "Folks Like US", on WDET from Detroit.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Mark Ross
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:38 PM

I used to have a Frank Profitt banjo that Dave Van Ronk gave me. Patrick Sky put a new head on it for me, but I left it with an ex-girlfriend when I moved West, and she refused to give it back, sigh.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:20 PM

I had one too.

I got it through George and Gerry Armstrong -- about 1960 also. They were highly influenced by Frank---being, as they were, making records for Sandy and Caroline Paton too. Actually, everyone around Folk Legacy was aware of Frank Profitt, and having one of his hand made banjos and/or dulcimers was part of us Chicago folkies way of learning about Appalachian folk music.

Then Frank Proffitt and Frank Warner came to the first U. of Chicago Folk Festival in 1961. It was and is still an extremely traditional festival where urban met the roots every February for over 40 years. But hanging out with Mr. Proffitt and Roscoe Holcomb and Elizabeth Cotten and Clarence Ashley and Doc Watson was how I, personally, recharged my trad batteries every year.

And those first years, the students lucked out when they hired the New Lost City Ramblers to be at the festival; indeed, Mike and John and Tom had the credentials and expertise and insights to run the workshops with a proper tone. They knew many, no, most of the right questions to ask the mountain folks and the blues-men and the cowboys and the union people like Sarah Ogan Gunning.

But Frank Warner on stage with Frank Proffitt talking about Tom Dooley---and Mr. Proffitt, when prompted, playing that song on his self-made banjo. Imagine my shock when the original tapes made by the Warners in those North Carolina mountains were finally issued on a CE. The backup on "Tom Dooley" employed by Frank Proffitt was on a guitar! ------- Well, live and learn.

This good thread just has me thinking back to those old banjos---and where mine went...

It was later in the decade of the sixties. A lady who waited tables at the first No Exit in Evanston was pregnant. (No, it wasn't mine!) But those were the days no legal abortions. Only back alley butchers were doing those. She was a good friend of mine---and I admit to having had a crush on her. Her parents had disowned her in Northern Wisconsin. She needed money bad for the procedure. Two guitars and that Frank Proffitt hand-made banjo got sold and the cash went to the lady.

Two days later I heard she was in the hospital. A Chicago taxi had hit her after she stepped off the curb in front of it. We never did ask her if it was on purpose. But for about a week I took a thermos of cold Whisky Sours up to that hospital room. -----

Thankfully, she recovered and went home to Wisconsin eventually. Many years later, I was singing at a festival up that way. I was putting my guitar in it's case, turned around, and there she was--in front of me.

Well, it was a great hug we shared right then and there. We both shared the same birthday-----and we agreed to be in touch every year on that day. But---it didn't happen. ----- So, Mark, that's the tale of my Frank Proffitt banjo--- and the lady friend connection to boot.

Wondrous warm recollections---all of 'em. ------- If it wasn't for time, we'd have to do everything all at once.

Art

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:30 PM

Iris, it is wonderful that you would come by here. There are a lot of us who still love your grandfather.   I think I've worn out maybe 4 or 5 cassettes....maybe more. He sang truth and honesty and that above all else makes him a great voice in the roots of folk. Sandy Paton's recordings of him are just about priceless.

Come back anytime......We're reasonably friendly and rarely bite.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: BK Lick
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:37 PM

Great story, Art -- it brought back a lot of memories for me too.
Dodi was playing a Frank Proffitt dulcimer at the Exit back then.
(Some mp3s are here.)

—BK

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Iris
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 11:01 PM

I hope we are talking about the same Frank Proffitt. He had a son
that is no longer alive named Frank Proffitt,Jr. He died when he was 58 years old in 2005. Now Frank Jr was my uncle. Now he did continue
the legacy of his father with the folk music. Not sure if he made
banjos or not. I would have to ask dad about that.

Copy this link below and there is a picture Frank Jr. holding a
banjo. Sorry folks that I had dropped in on your conversations. Very interesting folks, surprised that you are still listening and enjoying his songs. His banjos also. Thanks and have a good one.




http://www.davidholt.com/photos/tomdula.html

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Cool Beans
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 11:08 PM

Downeast Bob was originally from Chicago (more or less) and would have been there around 1960. Connections upon connections.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 12:00 AM

Nothing to apologize about, Iris - you are most welcome in this forum. And yes, we are talking about your grandad. I think I remember hearing that Frank Jr. also made banjos.

It was Sandy Paton, who sometimes frequents Mudcat, who recorded Frank Proffitt - if I'm not mistaken, it was the very first Folk Legacy album.

Dan

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 12:06 AM

Wow, what a neat thread...what the heart of Mudcat really is. Art, thanks for telling me about it. Your posting is a keeper, as they always are when you start reminiscing and that's what makes them treasures, too.

All the best,

kat

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: banjoman
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 07:41 AM

Great thread - I remember Pete Seeger talking at an informal chat somewhere in England many years ago about Frank Proffitt and as best as I remember he said something like "See him stretch a bit of goatskin over an old piece of stovepipe and end up with something that makes sounds like they came straight from above"

Good to know he is still loved and talked about
Pete

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,dulcimerjohn
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 08:21 AM

I always wanted one of Frank's dulcimers..me having 20 or so..

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: topical tom
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 11:14 AM

I first heard Frank Profitt's song "Going across the Mountains" played by Pete Seeger on a fretless banjo. A great song and sound.I think that it was on Pete's lp, "Dangerous Songs".

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM

Besides the 3 CDs of Frank Sr. on his Folk Legacy Records, Sandy Paton also recorded Frank Proffitt's LP album on Folkways Records. It is still available as a CD, on Smithsonian-Folkways Records.)

Sandy Paton was also on the bill at that first University Of Chicago Folk Festival in '61. So were Fleming Brown, cowboy singer Bob Atcher from the WLS Barn Dance, and later, the mayor of Shaumburg, Illinois for 20 years.-- Plus the Stanley Brothers, Chicago bluesman-streetsinger Arvella Gray, and George and Gerry Armstrong.

Art

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST, Gitfiddlegregg
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 10:56 PM

Great to see this thread. I just happened to stumble across it after doing some searching regarding these banjos. I had an old banjo stored away in New Hampshire that recently came back south with me, and it sure looks like a Frank Proffitt. The skin is dated (1960)and signed on the back, but the years have obscured all but the last letters in the signature. A friend who was originally from the Chicago area gave it to me as a wall hanger many years ago. Maybe this thread is a sign that I should get this thing in playing shape. Anybody have any thoughts on someone to put a good authentic head on this instrument? I live in the Richmond, VA, area. Do I also recall a picture of Hobart Smith playing one of these?

Gregg

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: astro
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 11:10 AM

Refresh - any help for Gregg?

(Gregg - also, check Banjo Hangout.)

~ Becky in L.A. this week

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: fretless
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:39 PM

Greg, you're probably looking for a calfskin head. That's not the most traditional (possum?), but it is close enough and easier to find than other skins. If you get up to the DC area, you could call the House of Musical Traditions in Takoma, where they are used to dealing with folk instruments. I bought a calfskin banjo head from them a while ago, which means they at least used to have them in stock.

Somewhere in my back memory is a comment from someone that cat gut makes good strings, that the neighbors felines are always up for grabs for this purpose, but that it is unneighborly to take your neighbor's last cat.

Having shared houses with many cats over the years, I do not endorse the above.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 08 - 11:22 AM

Thanks, that's an excellent suggestion. I have been to the House of Musical Traditions, but it has been many, many years. I'll check them out. I have some friends in DC I'd like to visit anyhow.

Becky, thanks for the link to Banjo Hangout and for bumping the thread.

Yup, the cat thing wouldn't work in my household.

Gregg

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 09:47 AM

Shouldn't that be a groundhog hide. That's what my Ray Hicks banjo has. From memory I believe Ray was Frank's brother-in-law. Certainly related anyway.


Hoot

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: DADGBE
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 03:59 PM

Perhaps this is a bit of thread creep but I've recently done some work on my Proffitt banjo and other players may be interested. I removed the retrofitted fine tuners which I spoke about in my last post to this thread, widened the nut and bridge slots a bit and changed the strings.

No more steel strings - now they're fluorocarbon fiber invisible fishing leader. They sound more like gut or nylon bud are far more stable. They work over a wide range of tensions so you can tune them low or high as you like. They tune well with friction pegs and don't need fine tuners.

I used: 30 pound test (0.020 inch dia,) for the 1st and 5th strings, 40 pound test (0.024 inch dia.) for the 2nd string, 60 pound test (0.029 inch dia.) for the 3rd string and 80 pound test (0.036 inch dia.) for the 4th string - all made by Seaguar.

They're easy to play, easy to tune and sound FAR better than anything else on the Proffitt.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 01:11 AM

Keep in mind that in the earlier times, when possum hide banjo heads were the thing, the strings were made of possum guts. One possum was only good enough for 4 and a half banjo strings. So that is why the fifth string only goes half way up the neck.

Live an' learn, huh?!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Jeff Davis
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:00 PM

I have a Frank Proffitt banjo and dulcimer. The banjo is signed and dated November1, 1963; the dulcimer is, I think, a year younger. I actually got the banjo by mail the day before American Thanksgiving almost exactly two years before Frank's death. With each of the instruments Frank included a cassette of his playing and included a few songs not recorded elsewhere. The cassette accompanying the dulcimer migrated into Anne and Frank Warner's collection and now resides, as far as I can tell, at the Library of Congress. The banjo tape went up in a fire in early 2001. It included a version Frank's composition "Ain't a Thing for a Poor Man" on the banjo (usually sung with a dulcimer).

I've included several of Frank's songs on a few of my own CDs, most recently his version of "Wild Bill Jones." I owe a tremendous debt to his singing. It was with Frank's music that I first tried to delve deeply into the old music. When I was seventeen years old, I spent two hot summer evenings with him on the Warner's front patio. He sang and talked and I listened. He agreed to make me a banjo and when it arrived I played it until it should have been worn out. But it is still going strong. There may be somebody else who spent as much time listening to and playing Frank's music--but I doubt it!

If you haven't heard Frank Proffitt, the time has come. There are several Folk-Legacy Recordings and one on Folkways. Frank can also be heard on both volumes of the Warner Collection CDs on Appleseed, but the second is subtitled "The Music of Frank Proffitt and North Carolina,' and has a great number of Frank's songs and a bit of talk, too.

It is great that grand-daughter, Iris wrote in. She may not remember the mention of his name in Time magazine or have ever seen the big obituary in the New York Times. He is well remembered by a great number of people. His picture is on my wall, Iris, along with a photo of Lee Monroe Presnell, another singer the Warner's met on their first trip to the North Carolina mountains, and another relative you should look up

I've often thought it would be interesting to try to track down all of Frank's banjos. Such a thing is not likely to happen and might not even be possible. As to the value of the banjos--they are, ...well, priceless. Hold on to yours.

Jeff Davis

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: DADGBE
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 01:55 PM

Well Art, those Beech Mountain possums must be lots bigger than the ones around here. It would be impossumble to get that many strings from just one critter.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 02:44 PM

Just out of curiousity-
On of the best-known of Frank Proffitt's banjos was the one played by Frank Warner--who only used four strings. Does anyone know how he tuned it?

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Chip Arnold
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 12:23 PM

FWIW, I think Elderly Instruments ( elderly.com ) sells calfskin heads. At any rate, they're easy to find. Possom, groundhog, cat, etc. may be "authentic" and romantic but they're awful hard to live with on a banjo with no means of adjusting the head tension. The tanned calfskin isn't perfect but it's MUCH more stable than any raw skin. And it's way less greasy.

I have a question.........does anyone know what Frank Sr's picking style was? I thought he was a 2-finger picker. Someone said he was a clawhammer picker but I don't think so. Maybe an up-picker as in the so called "Seeger Style"? It doesn't sound to me as though he's downpicking (clawhammer).

Mr Patton, are you on here?

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: bald headed step child
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 06:13 PM

If you are looking for alternate to the calfskin head, you might try goatskin. A little cheaper but still good. I found some for sale here,http://www.ukuleleworld.com/Banjo-Ukes/. They are a site for banjo-ukes but they have skins up to 14" which could work on rims up to 10", maybe 11"? Hope this is helpful.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Chip Arnold
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:09 PM

Refresh :-)

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 07:50 PM

I may have already posted a couple of these, or someone else might've. My apologies if so. They bear repeating, imo:

Frank Warner & Pete Seeger playing Tom Dooley. All I see Frank using is his thumb! At least of the close-ups.

Also, it seems Frank Proffitt has his own myspace HERE with three songs available. There are also photos of him and his son. Pretty neat stuff.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Chip
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:16 PM

Thanks Kat, This is a very helpful group. I'd seen the Seeger video and visited the myspace site yesterday. What I'm after is knowing how Frank Sr. played. Sombody has to know or there has to be some old footage of him playing. I think Sandy Paton would know.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 11:35 PM

Sure, Chip. I'll bet Sandy does. Also, Art Thieme must know. You could send him a PM (personal message,) Sandy, too, for that matter though I don't think he is on here much, and ask, IF you join us as a member. It doesn't cost anything and you won't get a bunch of spam nor even email form Mudcat. Hope this helps.

kat

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:36 PM

Neat old thread - I loved teh fishing leader strings! I just gaver my daughter my old 1896 SS Stewart Banjolin. I never cared for the steel strings on it so this fishing leader might be the alternative -

Thanks
Steve

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Mark Ross
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 09:45 PM

The hardest thing about the Proffitt banjo is putting a new head on it and getting it tight enough. Pat Sky did the job for me, cutting down an old skin head that had been taken off a five string.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: bald headed step child
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 12:02 AM

If you get an old issue of the foxfire 3 book it will show you the proper way to do the head on this style banjo. Very good section on banjo building. Also instead of nylon strings you might search for Nyl-gut strings. they are supposed to be synthetic gut. I've heard some good about them on some of the banjo sites but don't have any first hand experience as there is not a dealer near my home but they can be ordered from the web. I believe the maker is a company called Aquilar? Hope this is helpful.

BHSC

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Iris
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:05 PM

To Jeff Davis: Yes I did see the New York Times obituary, but I didn't know about him being in the Time Magazine. That is cool you have a picture on your wall.

To katlaughing: I know who the person is that made a profile for Frank Proffitt on myspace. His name is Doug Davis from Lenoir, NC.


Wait a minute, is he related to Jeff Davis that said he had Frank's and Lee's picture on the wall? Well isn't that something?

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Iris
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:12 PM

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=106510


Check this out. Another link talking about Frank's banjos!!!

Good Day!!

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Iris
Date: 17 Dec 08 - 10:21 PM

It is me again. I hope Doug Davis won't mind. He sent me an email on myspace that I thought you guys might be interested in.

"Doug Davis here. I live in Lenoir and I play old timey mountain music. My mother is from Shulls Mills in Watauga. Frank Proffitt wrote a song about that area."

"The girls at Shulls Mills
Got loving on their minds
But the girls way over on Beaver Dam
Wants money all the time"

"I set up this myspace for Frank because he is one of my favorites and I would love to see that banjo sometime."
Thanks!"

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:08 AM

Kat,
Please, feel free to put a link here to the nice old woodcut I e-mailed you of Frank Proffitt---the one made by George Armstrong in the 1960s.

Art

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Greg Gunner
Date: 20 Mar 09 - 08:25 PM

John Huron of Noteworthy Instruments puts groundhog heads on his handmade banjos. John's banjos are based on the Stanley Hicks pattern. Stanley Hicks was a first cousin of Frank Proffitt's father-in-law, Nathan Hicks. You may be able to get John to replace the head on your Proffitt banjo with a groundhog head. Also, Clifford Glenn is still living. Clifford's father, Leonard Glenn, actually made many of the instruments sold by Frank Proffitt in the 1960's. When orders exceeded Frank Proffitt's ability to fulfill them, he approached neighbors, Leonard and Clifford Glenn, and they worked out an arrangement to make both dulcimers and banjos for Frank Proffitt to sell under his own name. The arrangement worked well until Frank Proffitt's untimely death in 1965. After that the Glenns had to re-establish a market under their own names. At this point in time, it is very difficult to determine who actually made a Frank Proffitt banjo or dulcimer.

Greg

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Dick Gilman
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 10:24 PM

What a treat to find all these comments about Frank and his banjos !! I didn't know all this existed. Let me tell you about mine. In 1961 I was a gred student at the U of I when the folk group had Frank as a guest performer..I believe it was a tour for Sandy. Anyway,my wife and I, along with another grad couple hosted Frank for supper that evening..I will never forget that night. Frank set my 18 mo old daughter up on the couch and got out his banjo and played tunes for her !!

I had just started to play the banjo, but was so taken by his music and his style, that he changed my life that night. Before he left he agreed to make me a banjo when he got back home. Several weeks later it arrived with a letter( I still have it) in which he explained that since he returned home he had been so busy that he hadn't had time to make the banjo he had promised, so he was sending his own !! the one he played on his tour !!!!! It is signed on the inside of the groundhog skin head.."personal banjo of Frank Proffitt, Reese NC". No need to tell you that it one of my prized posessions !

Over the years I have made many mountain dulcimers and Proffitt-style fretless banjos. I love playing my proffitt banjo and have told lots of people about how I came to have it. If you want to take a look at the ones I make, go to TRINITY GUITARS.COM and click on GILMAN FOLK INSTRUMRNTS.

Thanks for a fun read of all you comments,

Dick

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,PeterA
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:55 PM

I have a Proffitt banjo, which I bought in 1964 or so.   Frank P. wrote me (I still have the letters) that the head is housecat skin.   Frank Warner also told me that he heard the Proffitt banjos were made of catskin (stretched over a piece of stovepipe.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,david e. kahn
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 08:30 PM

hello: Starting in 1957, I started field recording traditional american folk music for a radio
program and friends in Phildephia, PA. I also did the same program for WGH in Newport, News, Virgina a little later and then while doing this I worked out a program for many other college stations throughout the country. During this time and up until 1968 when I went back to the westcoast of the USA I traveled with Tom Ashley, the banjo player and went to the British Isles where I recorded music in the total area again for my programs back in the USA. I also wrote for Hoot Magazine out of Canada and other publications during this time. I was given by Frank Profit a banjo which I still have and a Lenard Glen delcimer which I also still have. I have other instruments given to me during this time. One is a Farland Artist. It is I believe from about 1902. During this time I met many of the people who were to become welll known folk singers. Besides during this I was involved with Jazz music and worked with MarshaL Stearns on his jazz book. I should say here that I also worked for different record
companies doing field recordings and tried to help all types of singers and musicians to get their foot into the door with many record companies. I could say more about that time yet this has been enough. In 1968 I started doing mural painting on the west coast in the LA area and did that also for 10 years working with street gangs in the East Los Angeles area.I did not give up my music recording yet from 1970 until 1990 I worked in the EasternArctic with the Inuit doing video's with t;hem. During this time I taught at different colleges here in the uSA along with working with Abroginal People in Australia which I still do to this day. As you can gather I HAVE been busy doing what I like all these years.
I am now 78 and will continue to do these same things and other things that I have not told you about. Best David Kahn

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Billy Faier
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 11:46 AM

There is a picture of one if Frank Proffitt's early banjos on my website BILLYFAIER.COM under the MEMORABILIA tab. It is now owned by my good friend Gene Henriksen to whom I gave it a few years back for his invaluable help on my website.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Paul_Dolce
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 12:03 PM

What are great thread. Thanks for sharing all of the great stories.

I have a 1950s/60s Leonard Glenn, it is just wonderful. If anybody is planning on selling their Proffitt, Glenn, or Hicks Banjos or Dulcimers, I would love to add to my collection.

I can be reached by 440-488-3213.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:08 PM

Wasn't it Frank Profitt who remarked, "I'd like to be able to play the banjo like Earl Skruggs, and then not."


Student "Can you read music"?
Old timer, "Not enough to hurt my playing."
"Hell, there aint no notes on a banjo, you just play the damn thing."

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Paul_Dolce
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:41 PM

I am currently developing a database of images/information for Watauga Co., NC makers and I eventually would like to share my findings with the public. This is an entirely non-commercial venture. My goal is to compile a listing of as many known instruments with images as is possible. Any information/images that you care to share would be greatly appreciated. Many people have taken an interest in participating in this project already. If you know others who would like to share images/information, please feel free to have them contact me.

Thanks!

Paul Dolce
440-488-3213

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Mairead
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 02:04 PM

'Wasn't it Frank Profitt who remarked, "I'd like to be able to play the banjo like Earl Skruggs, and then not."'

Yes, it was, and I almost fell off my chair laughing when I first read it.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: fretless
Date: 07 Jan 11 - 02:07 PM

Paul, for your database of NC makers, you may want to look at the Banjo Sightings database created by Greg Adams and George Wunderlich. Not that your date will overlap, but with the idea that it might be useful to adopt a standard organizational scheme for these things.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Paul_Dolce
Date: 09 Feb 11 - 12:25 AM

Thanks, fretless.

I have perused that site for many hours in the past, but it had slipped my memory. That format is the basic idea I will be going for.

I hope to have it categorized by maker and then various sub groups from there.

Several famous musicians and noted collectors have taken an interest and have participated in this project. I appreciate any and all contributions.

Thanks,

Paul Dolce 440-488-3213

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM

(posted this on the banjohangout thread as well)

I have a really amazing reel-to-reel tape my father Howie Mitchell recorded at Frank, Sr.'s place around 1962 or 1963.

It features Frank and several guests (Golden Ring members: Howie, Ed Trickett, not sure who else). It's a fake radio show called "Station WOP" where Frank jokes around about groundhogs and opening a groundhog steak house, and talking about "corrections" to the liner notes for the Folk Legacy record and such in between singing various songs, and some nice tunes by the guests.

Its about 45 minutes long. I recently had it digitized but will be sending it off to have remastered and likely donated to the Folklife Center or other appropriate archive at some point. He sent his copy of it to Caroline Paton not too long ago but she says she misplaced it, mine is the copy he made for the Dildines.

I also have a number of letters he wrote my father, his sense of humor was very sharp and witty.. I should scan them in sometime to share.. My dad really respected him a lot and still likes to cut up and rearrange advertisements to say something ridiculous, something he says he learned from Frank.

Speaking of Earl Scruggs.. I have a 45 of the Earl Scruggs method that Frank sent my dad with something written on it about learning from it :)

Now that I wrote about it I guess I'll get motivated to scan and post some of it. Not sure the best thing to do with the tape though since I don't have any rights to have it published.

-David

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Mar 11 - 06:06 PM

I know the whereabouts of one of Stanley Hicks's banjos in London U.K
Stanley was a relative of Frank's, his brother-in-law I believe, he can be seen in one of Alan Lomax's patchwork films along with other Hicks family members and Frank Profitt Jr.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Mar 11 - 03:37 PM

Perusing, my huge collection of old folk music magazines recently, I came across a long article by Frank Warner on Frank Proffitt in Sing Out! Vol. 13, No. 4 October-November 1963. It includes all the information about the early collecting that Frank & Anne did with the Hicks/Proffitt families, making of banjos and how Tom Dooley came to a wider audience and the impact on Frank Proffitt etc. etc.

It is too long to include here but I made .jpgs and a text scan of the pages to send to Gerret and Jeff and would send it to anyone with a particular interest in this if they send me a PM with their email addresses.

Jeff D? Art?

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Paul Dolce
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:27 PM

Is the Stanley Hicks banjo for sale in the UK?

I'd love to see those scans, Vic. You could email them to [e-mail] when you have the time. Thanks so much,

Paul

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 05 May 11 - 05:14 AM

It is my understanding that it could be depending on the amount offered.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Paul_Dolce
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 02:13 PM

Hi Hoot-

Could you give them my contact info please? 440-488-3213 or [e-mail].

Or you could send me theirs, either way.

Thanks a lot!

Paul

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Mimi Wright
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 06:27 PM

In about 1964 I bought a banjo from Frank Proffitt after reading an article in SingOut. Then just before he died I bought myself a dulcimer- the banjo was for my husband. I still have the letters from Frank and one from his wife. I have figured that the dulcimer she sent me was probably made by Leonard Glenn. We met Jeff Davis at Pinewoods camp in about 1965. Mr. Proffitt was supposed to come there but got a building job. We never got to see him play but I loved and still sing songs learned from the recordings of him. And we still have the banjo and dulcimer plus ones made by either Leonard or Clifford Glenn. Frank Proffitt Jr. stayed with us when he came out to perform for the San Diego Folk Festival several years back. I just found this thread because we want to give the Glenn banjo to a very nice LA man who played Satan
Your Kingdom Must Come Down in a contest. The information here is very interesting.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,Paul_Dolce
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 05:06 PM

Mrs. Wright-

I am compiling a database of known Watauga County instruments and would love to document yours for the database.

Feel free to email me at [e-mail] to discuss.

Thanks a lot!

Paul

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 04:25 AM

"posted this on the banjohangout thread as well)

I have a really amazing reel-to-reel tape my father Howie Mitchell recorded at Frank, Sr.'s place around 1962 or 1963.

It features Frank and several guests (Golden Ring members: Howie, Ed Trickett, not sure who else). It's a fake radio show called "Station WOP" where Frank jokes around about groundhogs and opening a groundhog steak house, and talking about "corrections" to the liner notes for the Folk Legacy record and such in between singing various songs, and some nice tunes by the guests.

Its about 45 minutes long. I recently had it digitized but will be sending it off to have remastered and likely donated to the Folklife Center or other appropriate archive at some point. He sent his copy of it to Caroline Paton not too long ago but she says she misplaced it, mine is the copy he made for the Dildines.

I also have a number of letters he wrote my father, his sense of humor was very sharp and witty.. I should scan them in sometime to share.. My dad really respected him a lot and still likes to cut up and rearrange advertisements to say something ridiculous, something he says he learned from Frank.

Speaking of Earl Scruggs.. I have a 45 of the Earl Scruggs method that Frank sent my dad with something written on it about learning from it :)

Now that I wrote about it I guess I'll get motivated to scan and post some of it. Not sure the best thing to do with the tape though since I don't have any rights to have it published.

-David"

I would LOVE to hear this.

There are so few actual recordings of Frank Proffitt (comparitively speaking)

This sounds like Frank's equivalent of the Basement Tapes or the Beatles Christmas Specials or something.

Please let me/Mudcat know about what happens to the re-master.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,peanutjake
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 11:47 PM

My Friend Eric Loeb passed away recently.
Eric had a Fretless Wooden Banjo he got from Frank Proffitt when Frank was performing at the Pinewoods Country Dance camp in the early 60's.
I have not spoken to her yet, but his widow might be interested in selling the instrument. If anyone is interested email me at [e-mail] and I will pass it on to her.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST,david
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:07 PM

Hello: Back a few years ago I told you much about what I did yet did not say that althogh Frank was not at the first worlds fare in the late 1930's but was at the second one along with Frank Warner. I have a picture which I took with the both of them their. I also know that if you are interested in that area's music I would suggest that it would be a good idea if you were to check on the work the Dr. Chuck Purdue did with his wife. Chuck was for many years the head of the folklore department at the University of Virginia. We lost him a few years back yet what he left us was to say the least worderful and will be remember for many years to come and as long as people want to understand foklore and music. Best to you all.

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 09:52 PM

Hi David-

Thanks for the info! I would love to see that photo. My email address is [e-mail]

Paul

Subject: RE: Frank Proffitt banjos
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Oct 18 - 12:54 AM

I stopped to visit DADGBE today. He has rebuilt his Frank Proffitt banjo again (see above). He replaced the strings with fluorocarbon fishing line, and found he no longer needed the fine tuners he had added. The banjo has a crisp, bright sound - the brightest sound I've ever heard on a fretless banjo. The banjo is now just as Frank built it, except that the strings are different and the head is goatskin instead of the original opossum. What a delight to hear Ray play it!
-Joe-